Talk:Legality of conversion therapy

Potentially confusing symbols

Mathglot I'm wondering if you can reconsider symbols for the article? Right now the jurisdictions with criminal penalties are not distinguished from those where the medical body has banned its members from carrying out the practice—which is not a full ban since non-medical professionals can still do it, plus the penalty is less (possibly expulsion from the medical body, at most). The criminal bans usually only apply to minors so right now the countries with criminal laws appear to be less strict (t · c) buidhe 08:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Buidhe; yeah, I wrestled a bit with that, too. Do you mean different symbols, or text rather than symbols? As far as not distinguishing the case you mentioned, I'd thought of that, and hesitated about adding a symbol for that case, but thought there was a trade-off between some symbols and too many. I had two goals when adding those columns: trying to give users a quick, visual overview of the status, and making it sortable so like countries could be grouped together, to see what additional information can be gleaned from that. Ultimately, to know the whole story, one has to read the details (and the footnotes) but I feel like different users have different levels of engagement, and even for the "in-depth" readers, some kind of summary can be helpful (it is, for me). If you feel like it isn't, we should address that. I had originally thought of just using short alphabetic codes ('DBL' = diagnosis banned by law, 'TBP' therapy banned by professional ethics, not necessarily illegal) but thought that was a bit opaque, and tried to find symbols that would tell the story at a glance (not so easy). The other way, could be fewer symbols, but with added {{efn}} explanatory notes ("by law"; "per professional association ethics", etc.).

Thinking about icons, I had originally thought of just a binary distinction: banned/not-banned, a bit analogous to what one sees in the first few columns at these tables at LGBT rights by country or territory. But note that the last column uses a three-valued division, with roughly, "have rights" (green check), "don't have rights" (red X), and "not so simple" (question mark). So there's a tension between giving something useful in that column on the one hand, with the inevitability that a symbol or aphabetic code cannot possibly tell the full story as listed in the Details column. I'd love to discuss this with you (and others) and find some solution that serves our readers best.

By the way, one more way of telling the story about CT legality by country, is to ape what they did at the LGBT rights article with world maps; there are three smaller ones near the top, followed by a whole series of larger ones as you scroll down; see LGBT rights by country or territory#Global LGBT rights maps for example. (They are based on Template:World laws pertaining to homosexual relationships and expression, in turn based on the image File:World laws pertaining to homosexual relationships and expression.svg.) The friendly folks at the Graphics lab could adjust that map or create a new one based on that idea to suit our purposes, if we asked them.

So, just trying to enlist all the tools available to us to try to tell a story that will only get more complex as time goes on, both within individual countries/rows, as well as the size of the table. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 17:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Added explanatory footnotes on the first four rows with checks, so we can see how that looks and discuss. Mathglot (talk) 17:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Mathglot After thinking about this a bit, I think that one option would be to remove the icons, which may currently be more confusing than helpful (especially the pie chart one for bans in some jurisdictions, which I didn't understand at all until mousing over). If kept, my suggestion would be: 1) criminal law ban in any part of the country, use gavel or scales; 2) any national medical association bans members from practicing, use medical icon. These two could potentially be in separate columns with question mark used when only some jurisdictions have an applicable ban. No ban would not have an icon. On a separate note I'm not entirely happy with the green check / red x mark way of discussing LGBT rights because it can give an unwanted connotation in favor of one side, when we should be trying not to be ILGA. (t · c) buidhe 02:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Gavel or scales sounds good. The green check / red x is used widely in tables of lgbt rights, and I'm pretty sure they got it from somewhere else. But I'm open to others. Mathglot (talk) 00:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Chile

Clarification needed on Chile; the bold leader says, "Practice by medical professionals banned", but reading the rest of the detail referring to Law 21.331 it doesn't seem like it's actually banned, just that it has to adhere to standards of proper diagnosis and treatment. If there's a loophole here, i.e., that there is no case where adhering to standards would allow for treatment, then we need to call that out. Mathglot (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd go with what RS say. Stonewall characterizes it as a ban. Haven't looked for Spanish language sources yet. We shouldn't use our own interpretation of the law, which could easily stray into OR. (t · c) buidhe 03:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

World image

Non-binary gender recognition around the world

How about if we start from File:World map nonbinary gender recognition.svg, come up with descriptions for the #Summary section, and create a map that gives at at-a-glance overview of the world situation? If we do this, we should probably wait a bit for the article to stabilize first. Mathglot (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Update the map to reflect ban from India

The practice has been banned in India now. See https://theprint.in/india/national-medical-commission-bans-conversion-therapy-calls-it-professional-misconduct/1115241/ and https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/nmc-declares-conversion-therapy-to-be-professional-misconduct/article65842557.ece. Please update the map accordingly.(Ravi Dwivedi (talk) 12:48, 6 September 2022 (UTC))

The table already lists a ban on practice by medical professionals. In order for a "nationwide ban" heading to be applied the ban would have to apply to the entire population, through criminal law for example. CASalt (talk) 23:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Mexico update

- Oaxaca (November 2021), Nuevo Leon (December 2022), and Sonora (December 2022) were added:

https://oaxaca.quadratin.com.mx/prision-a-quien-obligue-a-terapias-de-conversion-de-orientacion-sexual/

https://www.milenio.com/politica/sancionaran-con-hasta-cinco-anos-de-carcel-las-terapias-de-conversion

https://www.elsoldehermosillo.com.mx/local/logrado-congreso-de-sonora-aprueba-la-prohibicion-de-los-ecosig-9293946.html

- Querétaro (June 2023):

https://www.diariodequeretaro.com.mx/local/queretaro-decimoquinto-estado-en-prohibir-y-sancionar-terapias-de-conversion-10295161.html

Aleqc (talk) 05:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Timeline

I believe it's time to create a summary table. Legality of conversion therapy is a very important topic and needs a more detailed description. It's also very important to differentiate between full criminal bans (e.g. Ecuador, Canada, France) and relatively limited/weak bans (e.g. Samoa, Israel, India). These are different things and should not be confused one with another. That's why we need two separate summary tables. Anyway, I'd welcome any ideas, suggestions and improvements. Cyanmax (talk) 13:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Uganda

In Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2023 § Summary, Section 16 links to conversion therapy. Can someone please investigate whether Uganda should be considered as "State-sanctioned" or "No ban, but widely practised"? --Minoa (talk) 21:49, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Belgium

Belgium fully criminalized conversion therapy this year 2023. It also states this in this Wikipedia page so Belgium should by included in the list of fully criminalization in the year 2023 next to Spain, Cyrpus and Iceland 85.72.234.67 (talk) 22:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Iceland and Cyprus and Poland

Iceland and Cyprus should be dark blue on the map also on the page it says that Poland also is considering banning conversion therapy so shouldn't Poland be yellow @CASalt 85.187.219.218 (talk) 17:30, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@CASalt 85.187.219.218 (talk) 22:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

All of the "proposed" areas should be eliminated per WP:CRYSTAL. We don't know if these proposals are still being actively debated or when, or even whether, they will ever take effect. (t · c) buidhe 01:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

For Iceland and Cyprus both laws that criminalize conversion therapy have been passed by their Parliaments and and have taken effect https://in-cyprus.philenews.com/news/local/house-plenum-votes-to-criminalise-conversion-therapies/ and https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/10/iceland-conversion-therapy-ban/ are proof and also their respective wiki pages say so as well 85.187.219.218 (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Continued issues with symbols

Hello, I feel that the table should be more similar to the one at Legality of cryptocurrency by country or territory, and the "proposed" icons should go because of WP:CRYSTAL. The possible values could be one or more of the following:

Banned nationwide

Banned by medical professionals

Banned for children

Banned in x states / Not banned elsewhere

Not banned

State-backed

This might need more refinements, but I hope you know what I mean. --Minoa (talk) 01:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe that there are any countries in the "banned nationwide" group. There are two kinds of bans, health professional bans where professionals may not practice conversion therapy or risk expulsion from the profession, or else criminal state-imposed bans that (AFAIK) only apply to minors. Both types of bans could be in effect in the same country, however, which is why multiple columns could be helpful.

I think our bias is showing when you compare the way you are suggesting red and green be used with this subject compared to how it is on cannabis legalization. To be more consistent with other articles, I would display bans in red and legality in green. (t · c) buidhe 01:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that my choice of icons are in line with scientific consensus that conversion therapy is ineffective. --Minoa (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Whether something is ineffective and harmful is not necessarily related to whether it is legal. Taking the point of view that it should be is a reasonable POV, but not one that should be inadvertently promoted by a color scheme. Neutral colors are also an option. (t · c) buidhe 19:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)