Talk:Lee Kuan Yew/Archive 4

Intrigued

I'm intrigued as to why this article has a specific "Controversies" section. Wouldn't whatever controversies he had be reworded and shortly summarized into "Legacy" instead? He didn't start some brutal war, oversee concentration camps, or die in exile after being ousted out as being corrupt and stealing national funds. From what I can tell, the most decisive things he's most known for are the fact that he often sued his political opponents for defamation, as well as made less politically correct comments about race and religion – the latter extremely common among politicians on the entire political spectrum. He might had some autocratic tendencies but he didn't actively oppress or rob his people. Point is he merely ruled over a city-state, albeit a very significant one and the most since the Republic of Venice. However, politicians from way larger and influential countries, including even some actual autocrats or dictators who did significantly worse things to their people or country, don't have them either for their respective articles. Examples include Ferdinand Marcos, Suharto, Margaret Thatcher, Richard Nixon, Chiang Kai-shek, you name it. Heck, to go full Godwin's law – even Adolf Hitler doesn't have one! So what exactly makes LKY so special? OddLeiKou (talk) 00:30, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

There have been efforts to integrate the materiel into his tenure and reduce its size over the years, but it remains a mammoth task as his career spanned over 40 years across three appointments, generating the necessary detractors to his rule across multiple generations. As the Singaporean community on Wikipedia is small, this will take some time to address.

Nevertheless, I am still looking forward to integrating most of his "controversies" into the article eventually, as many of them should not be featured prominently in a separate subsection per undue weight on the issue (especially the Condo case, which he is found not guilty of, and should not even be listed within the subsection). His legacy remains twofold - as a leader who led Singapore into the 21st century with a hard stance against corruption and inefficiency, but with a prominent record of suing his opponents noted in many journals. His role in Operation Coldstore must also be examined properly as to the extent of his involvement and featured with due weight, as it presently relies on a single source. Seloloving (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

As an interim measure to proper integration I would support splitting them up at least into "Legacy" and "Political positions", as per your reply in the above section. CMD (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I will look into what I can do when I have the time as I will need to shift some contents too. Seloloving (talk) 10:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Shifting this here until we can integrate it into the article with proper weight. Seloloving (talk) 01:43, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

=== Nassim Jade and Scotts 28 condominium discounts === In 1996, while serving as [[Senior Minister]], Lee along with his son, [[Lee Hsien Loong]], then serving as the Deputy Prime Minister, addressed in Parliament on allegations of receiving special discounts on four luxury condominium units that they had purchased from Hotel Properties Limited (HPL) on the properties of Nassim Jade and Scotts 28 that were purchased in 1994 and 1995 respectively. At that time, Lee Suan Yew, Lee's own brother serving as a director of HPL. Then-Prime Minister [[Goh Chok Tong]] ordered an immediate investigation into the matter, as though the provision of special discounts or rebates is permitted to the relatives and associates of directors under Singapore law, such transactions must be disclosed and approved by shareholders.<ref name="National Archives of Singapore">{{cite news|date=21 May 1996|title=STATEMENT BY SENIOR MINISTER LEE KUAN YEW ON NASSIM JADE AND SCOTTS 28|work=[[National Archives of Singapore]]|url=https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/data/pdfdoc/066-1996-05-21.pdf|access-date=5 July 2020|archive-date=7 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200707034411/https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/data/pdfdoc/066-1996-05-21.pdf|url-status=live}}</ref> In his statement, Lee stated that no special treatment on their respective transactions, the [[Stock Exchange of Singapore]] firmly rebuked HPL for violations in their non-disclosure of the sales of these luxury properties.

Just like to point out that I am aware I may be adding excessive details, but per Roosevelt and Churchill's page, I will cross the bridge to split the article if the final result is too long, but will just continue to add on as much as I can within a reasonable limit. Seloloving (talk) 04:30, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: Hello, I would like to seek your opinion. As you can see in the Opposition leader section, there are the power struggle and Merdeka talks sections. Should I merge them together or split them as it is currently? The two events more or less happened concurrently and I have tried both approaches but not yet come to a result I like. I still have to add a combined 1957 and 1959 elections section. Seloloving (talk) 10:30, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I would generally be interested in how the sources cover the matter, unfortunately I can't access the two used. As it is, the split reads well to me, although that's not to say if you change it it wouldn't read fine then too. An alternative might be to create separate sections for each Merdeka talk. On that point, the text introduces the term "Merdeka" with no explanation, and never uses the phrase "first Merdeka talks" before mentioning the "second Merdeka talks". The term Merdeka should be explained (nlb infopedia notes "Merdeka talks" was a name assigned later), or just use "independence". CMD (talk) 05:50, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I will work on the issues you have raised on the Merdeka talks confusion and decide again whether to split after I implement the next section. Most of the sources on the power struggle came from Men in White while the Merdeka talks were featured mainly in Singapore: A Biography. Unfortunately, I can't split the Merdeka talks into each separate section as most of what LKY did are from his biography, which I can't use excessively. Seloloving (talk) 12:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

"Hei no Saemon" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Hei no Saemon. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 25#Hei no Saemon until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Seloloving (talk) 12:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Hakka ancestry

@Jpatokal: Hello. Please note that the sentence is presently about LKY's parents, not LKY himself. While LKY's father was of Hakka descent, at present, the sources omit any mention of Chua and his maternal side. The publication on his early life also says that Chua was a Hokkien Peranakan descended from an Indonesian Peranakan. Of course, if you could provide a more definite source for Chua's ancestry, I would concur with its inclusion. Seloloving (talk) 09:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, realized that the phrasing was indeed misleading. Lee Kuan Yew's Hakka ancestry is well known though, and I've added a separate sentence with two sources (ST and BT). Jpatokal (talk) 09:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

That works for me too. Thank you. Seloloving (talk) 10:00, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Human rights

I will be shifting his libel suits and arrest of opponents under the ISA to a dedicated human rights section. The Operation Coldstore section will remain under PM per-independence, but go into the bare details of what he did, and will not examine whether the Singapore government or its opposition is right. That will be located under the Detention without trial section under human rights and will feature the perspectives of both sides. A detention without trial section will also allow me to expand on Operation Spectrum.

For the libel suits section, there are yet many more cases of LKY suing his opponents which are not covered but still prominent. I am wondering if we could create a dedicated page of the Singapore government suing its opponents for defamation, as it's a notable act which has been covered by many international sources and not limited to a single person. This would allow us to link these sections to the GCT and LHL pages. Seloloving (talk) 06:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Quick update to anyone tracking my progress. At present, I am still trying to track down a copy of The 1963 Operation Coldstore in Singapore: Commemorating 50 years. I have been to the Popular and Kinokuniya HQ and it's out of stock in both locations. I have also checked used bookstores in Bras Basah to no avail. I have the journal which Matthew Jones wrote, but would prefer to have both. The section may be delayed until I can get the aforementioned book. Predictably, even the very factual Men in White which goes into indepth into a lot of LKY's past, blemishes and all, skims over this section.

In the meantime, there's actually a lot to write about LKY's premiership in his early years, so I will focus on that first. Seloloving (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Singapore during the formation of Malaysia (16 September 1963).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:20, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I am going to remove this image from the article. Having checked photos of LKY on 31 August proclaiming Singapore's independence, and Singapore's accession to Malaysia on 16 September, both images clearly show that he had four/five microphones in front of him during the speeches and not two. Without a proper source other than "Malaysia Archives" to back up that this photo depicted Lee as proclaiming Malaysia, I cannot vouch for its authenticity. Seloloving (talk) 23:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Main photo of Lee Kuan Yew

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I would like to upload a new photo for the main photo of Mr Lee Kuan Yew. A new photo depicts him in his older appearance.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/chinas-president-xi-jinping-praises-mr-lee-kuan-yews-outstanding-contributions-to-asia, https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2015/05/25/lee-kuan-yew-to-be-protected-by-law/ --Manwë986 (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Strongly oppose: Most articles of deceased people depict them in the most significant part of their lives, which for LKY would be his premiership. In addition, both photos listed here are copyrighted and will not expire until 2070/80 at the least. Seloloving (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose primarily because of copyright status; secondary per Seloloving above. It won't pass non-free content criteria anyway for en.wiki local uploads since there are already free equivalent (photo of LKY) available. – robertsky (talk) 19:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

What free equivalent available? Then I will propose an image that's already in the commons. You said "most" articles, then not all articles. Is looking at the camera really important? If not, then I will look into the commons for older photo.--Manwë986 (talk) 19:48, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per seoloving and robertsky. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:57, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Please see Commons:Licensing and Commons:Copyright rules for more information about what images can be uploaded. CMD (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I mean the images within WikiCommons. There were plenty of Lee Kuan Yew photos in Commons. I'll look for the older photo of him, even if you oppose.--Manwë986 (talk) 14:19, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose For photos of deceased people, there's no reason to use as recent a photo as possible; we should simply prefer quality photos of the individual, preferably taken during the time they were doing what they are most notable for. In Lee Kuan Yew's case, presumably this would be a photo of him while he was prime minister, which covers a pretty wide range (with 1975 being right about the middle of it). OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 00:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment This case is currently on ANI after Manwë986's last change on 27 July against talkpage consensus, before Ohnoitsjamie commented. Seloloving (talk) 02:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Oppose I concur with the reasoning laid out above, so no need to rehash. Xcalibur (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.