Talk:Larrys Creek

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Any and all feedback appreciated. Ruhrfisch 04:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if this article could decide whether or not it uses miles or kilometers. It's about a Pennsylvanian stream, so it should be miles, right? Decent article overall, however, at least in my consideration. Basically, this article has as much information as could reasonably be expected of it. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 22:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Matt; and now, it's a featured article. Now I know more than I ever ask for about some creek in Pennsylvania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niubrad (talk • contribs) 05:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the promotion to WP:GA and for the feedback. My basic thought was that to be NPOV, it should use both kilometers and miles (since there are about 300 million Americans who use miles, but 5.7 billion of everyone else in the world who use kilometers). If there is a style guide or policy that miles should come first in American articles, I will be glad to make the necessary changes (and apologize as I didn't know). Ruhrfisch 01:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Generally, you want to consider the likely audience. There are only about a billion English speakers in the world with computer access, and a good third are in the USA. Not only that, but the likely reader of this article is probably American, as well. Of course, as the first main contributor, it's your prerogative to use whichever you want--however, if you want to leave it in KM, you might want to change the few scattered references to miles (besides the ones in parenthenses next to kilometers). I noticed one or two. Anyway, happy editing! Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I will switch it to miles first, kilometers second when I get the chance and leave the few approximate distances as miles only. I am working on a series of creek articles and this is the model / most developed of them, so all advice on making it as good as possible is appreciated (and will be used in other articles too). Ruhrfisch 11:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

This is pretty clearly covered in the Manual of Style. Particularly:

• Conversions should be included.
• When in doubt, source values (almost certainly miles for this article) should be first and converted values second. Also, as a topic on a U.S. subject, miles are appropriate.

So, basically, yeah, you're doing the right thing. Stellmach 16:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Great

I just want to say, this is one of the best stream/river articles I've seen. Excellent! Pfly 09:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes after FA

Since reaching featured status, I have added the National Register of Historic Places reference, as well as that the Flood of 1889 was from the same storm system that caused the Johnstown Flood (both mentioned in the FAC as possible additions). I also clarified the Seeley / Seely Run spelling (following the USGS name of Seeley Run) and added a new sentence (with reference) on the lack of Watershed Association for Larrys Creek. Two other refs have been updated and all PA State Routes are now just PA Routes. I have yet to write a stub on the covered bridge and wikilink that, but otherwise I think everything I now know about the creek that belongs in the article is there. Ruhrfisch 12:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Expanded the lead to three paragraphs and tried to make it more compelling / interesting (it was sort of dry before). Added one sentence to lumber section (essentially taken from the 1900's newspaper article). I have found a better map with more of the tributaries labeled and will make the tributaries into a separate list, Tributaries of Larrys Creek. Ruhrfisch 20:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Added information on past pollution to article (with two new references) and tweaked lead to reflect this. Ruhrfisch 03:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Added three sentences - two to Geography on the channel and drainage patterns and one to water quality on mean annual precipitation (all from PA Gazetteer of Streams). Ruhrfisch 03:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Added topo / relief map of the watershed and dissected Allegheny Plateau, moved other images around. Ruhrfisch 03:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Put in Template:geolinks-US-river, removed latitude and longitude in article, removed extra "located"s Ruhrfisch 22:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Removed 88 duplicate and non-essential wikilinks, other minor edits per White Deer Hole Creek FAC Ruhrfisch 02:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Added discharge data, discharge and gauge section with three more references Ruhrfisch 16:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Switched units to {{convert}} where possible, moved a former External link on the New Tribes bridge up into the article as a second reference for the New Tribes Mission camp, added a new sentence and ref on two Clovis points found in Salladasburg area (oldest human habitation evidence, ca. 10,000 BCE), and converted from the old {{Infobox River}} to the new {{Geobox River}}. One reference is not working in the Geobox, am checking on that. Ruhrfisch 19:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Changes made from April to October, 2007: Added the {{Susquehanna River System}}, in August I checked all the references and their external links and updated several that had changed or gone dead, plus a variety of minor wikilink and copyedit changes.
  • In preparation for this article appearing as WP:TFA, I switched {{convert}} to text in all cases (about 43) and switched to {{Geobox}} 2 with the Pennsylvania locator map (with help from Caroig - thanks), which made the article load much faster. Also added {{Commonscat}} and uploaded many more images to Commons for the interested few. Added two more images to the article (fall and winter) and cleaned up the references per the Plunketts Creek (Loyalsock Creek) PR and FAC comments (thanks to Ben MacDui). I added references and a few extra comments (the State Game Lands official map ref, the Geological Map 61 refs and anticline sentence, two refs for the covered bridge from ARCH and NBI, plus changed the name to the official Cogan House Covered Bridge per NRHP listing and I made that article (finally). Also added townships for the two camps, removed the bold subsection headers in Recreation, merged the one paragraph Water Filtration Plant section into the previous Water Quality and Pollution section (thanks to IvoShandor). Plus I asked several users to look the article over and appreciate their corrections and suggstions (thanks to Dincher and Michael Devore). I am still working on the Tributaries of article as a new "See also" and may add the course of the creek to the relief map if I have the time. I soon should hear comments from Daniel Case. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 15:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Notes from Daniel Case copyedit prior to turn in the spotlight

OK. From a writing standpoint, not too bad. A lot of second-reference issues ... reusing "Larrys Creek" when just a pronoun or "the creek" would do. Some slightly awkward wording. But otherwise flows (ahem) well and imparts the information needed. The beginning sections needed more work; Geology and Watershed earned almost no red marks on my hard copy.

Citations needed

• • Comment Thanks for all your careful reading of this. Just so you know, when this article went to FAC almost every fact / claim in the lead paragraphs was cited with an inline ref. The first person who commented on it in FAC opposed it for that very reason and only switched to support when I took them out (all but the direct quotation citation, which may have been added back in - no time to check). I do not see the need for several of these requests as they are neither direct quotes nor extraordinary claims. Also since the lead is a summary of the article, some of the sentences would need three or four references and just clutter up the lead. Just to be clear, the refs for everything in the lead are all in the article text. See below for specifics. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• The first recorded inhabitants in the vicinity were the Susquehannocks, followed by the Lenape and other tribes'. Yes, this is cited when mentioned in the article. Let's put that note up in the intro as well.
  • As this is not a direct quote, nor an extraordinary claim, I do not see why this gets a cite, but it is done. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• ... as do some highway bridge signs today. Sure we can't find a way to put a thumbnail at 150px here to support this?
  • The article already has one photo of a road sign (as that is all that is left of the Plank Road) and I am not sure it needs another (as it is about a creek and not highways or road signs). I wikilinked the image of the sign spelling it "Larry's Creek" (sic) inline, but did not display it. If you really think it necessary, I will add it reluctantly as 150 px thumbnail on the left in this section. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• No other stream in the country had so many sawmills in so small a territory. In the whole country? This is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof, and I don't recall that in the article. Cite it or change it and cite it.
  • Agreed. Changed slightly to A 1903 newspaper article claimed "No other stream in the country had so many mills in so small a territory". and moved the reference up (it was in there all along and the claim is in the rather lengthy article title (which is given) as well as the article itself. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Despite agricultural runoff and small amounts of acid mine drainage, water quality is quite good, and a water filtration plant on Larrys Creek supplies over 2500 customers. Again, bring the cite up into the intro.
  • This will need three citations (runoff, AMD, filtration plant) in the lead, where the MOS says they are discouraged. Are you really sure? If so I will put them in. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • For now I moved the water filtration plant ref up, as I figured the gist of the sentence is "the creek's water quality is good" and a drinking water plant implies that. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• ... and according to tradition had a Native American wife. Didn't see this cited here or anywhere else and "according to tradition" isn't good enough. Someone probably wrote this down. If it's the citation at the end of the graf, add one on this sentence.
  • Ref now in place, sentence tweaked to indicate source (and it was the ref already at the end of the paragraph). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Measured directly, Lycoming County is about 130 miles (209 km) northwest of Philadelphia and 165 miles (266 km) east-northeast of Pittsburgh. Wording aside, this needs a citation.
  • Fixed (calculated it based on coordinates for the citeis and county), thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• Pennsylvania receives the most acid rain of any state in the United States. A very extraordinary claim that needs a citation.
  • Changed to a direct quote from the source of the claim which is more detailed. Quote is now referenced, as is the next sentence after it (where the ref was already). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• ... so the illegal settlers there were part of the "Fair Play Men" system of self-government, with their own Declaration of Independence from Britain on July 4 1776. This is an interesting tidbit that should be cited.
  • Done for now - I have a better ref for this, but need to look up the details to add it. thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
    • New ref (book on the Fair Play Settlers) is now in the article too. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• ...small lumber companies still operate in the watershed today. Give us some proof
  • There are two photos of two different sawmills in the Commons Category Larrys Creek. I have a ref about managed use of state forests and another of state game lands (timber harvesting is allowed) but it is not specific to Larrys Creek. I think I can make this a note and put the general refs and inline links to the photos there. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Added the DCNR ref about lumbering in state forests and a note with inline links to the two sawmill pictures on Commons. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusing

• Nearly 9,000 acres (3.6 km²) of second-growth forest are protected public and private land for hunting and trout fishing, with more land protected in parts of Tiadaghton State Forest. Is the public land in the 9,000 acres not part of the state forest? If so, why? If not, make it clearer that it is.
  • The public State Game Lands have 2881 acres, the private Larrys Creek Fish and Game Club (and helipad construction society) has over 6000 acres, which added together are nearly 9000 acres of protected land. The Tiadaghton State Forest acreage is not even given accurately on its offical webpage (its eastern half is now part of Loyalsock State Forest but they have not updated their stats). Even if I knew exactly how large Tiadaghton is, I do not know how many of its acres are within the Larrys Creek watershed. If you can think of a better way to say it, please do so. I can make it longer and perhaps clearer, but again was trying to condense a lot of material in the body into one (already long) sentence in the lead. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Off-topic wanderings

• The stuff about the bridge. This section is about the course of the stream, not the bridge. Since there's a separate article about it now, there's no need for this here so I deleted it. (It left one orphaned footnote, the "now and then" one).
  • I fixed the orphan and added back in two sentences about the bridge in the History section, as per WP:Summary style (leave a brief summary behind when making a larger article - before the only info left was the photo, where the bridge is, and that the plank road may nearly have reached that far). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• The tributaries' courses really should be discussed in separate articles. At least not in the course section. Stay on the creek.
  • Each Fork course description is one sentence - for the Second Fork, this is needed in any case for the course of PA 287 and the plank road. I do not think there is enough info to make anything above a start class article for the Second Fork and a stub for the First Fork and I do not plan to make these articles. My basic idea is to cover the major tributaries as well as the main creek - these two do account for nearly 48% of the watershed. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• We really don't need to know about the Larrys Creek Fish and Game Club's amenities in an article about the creek (although the fish-stocking stuff is relevant). Deleted.
  • I was trying to show that this is not your average backwoods hunting cabin with a woodstove and two light bulbs. Two live in caretakers, a lodge (picture on Commons) large enough to sleep all their members, and a helipad. If you drive 287 there are miles of forest and their lodge and helipad. They have over 6000 private acres for 70 members, the state game lands have less than 3000 acres for 12 million Pennsylvanians (or 120,000 Lycoming Co. residents). As far as I know the only other helipads in the county are at the hospitals and airport. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Moves

• Put the elevation of the source and mouth at the points in the text where those are described.
  • Thanks - they make more sense there. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Usage

• The point where Larrys Creek flows into the Susquehanna is its mouth, not its "confluence".
  • Thanks for the edit, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• I added a link to Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. "DCNR" is introduced as an attributee without explanation. Always remember to use an organization's full legal name on first reference with the abbreviation in parentheses.
  • Thanks - that was a recent edit in response to Ivo's comments. I usually follow that rule, sorry, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• I realize that "First Fork of Larrys Creek" and likewise may be those watercourses' official names. But I think "First Fork" and do forth is fine on second reference.
  • Have removed all but three mentions (one is a joint mention in Name, plus one mention each in Course). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Corporately alive"? I hope you're cringing.
  • Not my original prose, thanks for tweaking it. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like I shaved off nearly 4K. Not bad ... If you don't think you can fix this in time, let Raul know and he'll postpone it. Daniel Case 04:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the extensive copyedits. I originally had more refs in the lead, but they were taken out in FAC. Everything in there has things to back it up, I will just add more cites, almost all of which are already in the article. I do have two images of two separate sawmills in Commons, but have a DCNR / state forest ref I will add too. I am going to bed now, but will fix everything tomorrow. Thanks again, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A few comments from Ivo

• It would be really great if you could add the path of the creek to Image:Larrys Creek Watershed Relief Map.PNG, in blue or something.
  • Will try to do this if I have time - Ruhrfisch
• I am not a huge fan of the bolded subsectioning in the recreation section, seems to me that the section isn't all that long and the bold breaking of the text does more to interrupt the flow than it does enhance it.
  • Removed - Ruhrfisch
• The water filtration plant section seems kind of short, would it be better worked into the preceding section?
  • Merged now, plus made Tributaries its own subsection to get rid of another bold fake subheader - Ruhrfisch
• I am guessing the covered bridge doesn't have an article? Looks like not, it would probably be at Cogan House Covered Bridge (that's how its listed in the Register). Toss a couple sources my way and I will write up a decent article on it for you.
  • See Cogan House Covered Bridge - Ruhrfisch
• As the crow flies, Lycoming County is about 130 miles (209 km) northwest of Philadelphia and 165 miles (266 km) east-northeast of Pittsburgh. I would definitely lose the colloquialism, its not the right tone for an encyclopedia. :)
  • Fixed and see below - Ruhrfisch
• Are there any other see alsos? Maybe another tributary or something?
  • Working on a tributary list - Ruhrfisch

These are nothing more than suggestions and observations, take them for what you will, hope that helps a bit. :)IvoShandor 23:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the comments - my first priority is to see if I can get the article to load faster. I am taking the {{convert}} templates out and switching to the faster loading Geobox 2. As for your points, I will see what I can do with the relief map. I had also thought of just adding the same labels to the relief map as are on the watershed map (dots and names for Salladasburg and the villages, label the creek and major tribs). I will take a second look at the bolds in Recreation - this is my first FA, so I did some things then I would not do now. The water quality and pollution section was added in FA, so I will take a second look at how the Water Plant fits in there. I long ago promised User:Elkman an article on the bridge (which has at least three different names) and will get it written before Oct. 19. I actually went back to the library that has the article on its history and got a copy of the article before the TFA was chosen, so I have the source material. As the crow flies was in for FAC here and in White Deer Hole Creek and currently in FAC. I was asked to remove the wikilink. Because of the mountains in Pennsylvania, the driving distance is longer, but this is the direct distance. Would "Lycoming County is about 130 miles (209 km) northwest of Philadelphia and 165 miles (266 km) east-northeast of Pittsburgh, by direct distance" work (sounds awkward). Assuming I can get the bridge article done (should be fine) and the List of tributaries article done too, would they be OK as "see alsos"? Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that the alternative to as the crow flies is a bit bulky, perhaps saying it as it really is, "direct distance is X, however the distance by road is Y." or maybe just is 165 miles . . . directly northeast of Pittsburgh or something like that perhaps. I just think that using as the crow flies is unnecessarily confusing. The bridge article seems like it would be screaming to be linked from the main text rather than a "see also" (considering it is discussed in the text and is the lead image, the tributary list would be a good one to add as a see also. I noticed the long load times too. I will look at the PR when I get a shot. I think that's it. :) IvoShandor 02:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I just removed all the convert tags and it loads about twice as fast. Also switched it from "As the crow flies,..." to "Measured directly,...". I was planning on linking the bridge article directly, but will try for the list for a see also. Thanks again, no rush on the PR (and the FAC is a FA now - woohoo!). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about researching and adding more about when PA 973 and PA 287 became state highways, but that really belongs in the articles about the routes. --NE2 13:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Brownstone nonsense

I just removed a section called Brownstone which was unreferenced and ignored the fact that Larrys Creek and the West Branch Susquehanna River are non-navigable streams. here it is:

Larry's Creek, as well as the Susquehanna River in which it flows, as well as many other local tributaries and creeks were used for the transportation of brownstone, namely that of Hummelstown brownstone by the company Hummelstown Brownstone Company. Taken from the Hummelstown Quarry in Hummelstown the brownstone were transported throughout Pennsylvania using the vast water-ways.

If you have valid refs, let me know and we can but a sentence or two back in, but I know of no brownstone structures in the watershed. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes after TFA

I removed some vandalism and the brownstone nonsense (see above), as well as a few good faith edits that did not improve the article. There was a persistent vandal that kept changing the creek length to 2 decimal places, but could not provide sources and did not convert miles to kilometers correctly.

I added more information on the Ogontz Lodge to go with the information on Herbert Hoover's stays there added just after TFA. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Watershed Association

Projects abound in region’s streams Williamsport Sun-Gazette January 25, 2009 By PATRICK DONLIN Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Water use for Marcellus Shale fracking

Removing water trucks from road: 1st of its kind in county, pipeline to cut number of trips to drill pads] Williamsport Sun-Gazette May 7, 2012 By DAVID THOMPSON, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Imapct of fracking on PA forests and streams here Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:02, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

SRBC page Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

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WP:URFA/2020

This featured article does not currently meet the featured article criteria. There is uncited text throughout, and a number of outdated statistics, such as fish and game club membership statistics, population stats from 2000, and dated information about water quality and land use. @Ruhrfisch: - Are you going to be able to work this one back up to standards? Hog Farm _Talk 15:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)