Talk:Labrador Retriever/Archive 4

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Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2017

I am suggesting to add this paragraph under "History of subtypes" Black Labradors are the most common, as the black coat gene is dominant.[6] Black was also the commonly preferred color and black labs were bred more frequently until more recent times.[4] St. John’s Water Dog, the Labrador’s ancestor from Newfoundland, was colored black and highly intellectual which appealed many pet owners back then.[7] Due to the fact that black Labradors were specifically bred for their working genes, they began to obtain a natural drive and deposition for hunting wild life.[4] In 1830, British sportsman Colonel Hawker referred to the Lab as "the best for any kind of shooting...generally black and no bigger than a Pointer, very fine in legs, with short, smooth hair...is extremely quick running, swimming, and fighting...and their sense of smell is hardly to be credited".[5] Their black coat makes it easier for them to blend in with nature and not frighten their prey away.[7]

[1] http://nicolebasaraba.com/labrador-retrievers-theyre-canadian/ [2] https://uk.pinterest.com/kynochrory/black-lab/ [3] http://more-sky.com/group/lab-puppies-wallpaper/ [4] http://www.lorkenfarms.com/labrador%20Retriever%20history.htm [5] http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/labrador-retriever/detail/ [6] http://www.thelabradorsite.com/information-about-the-labrador/the-black-labrador/ [7] https://www.labradortraininghq.com/labrador-breed-information/black-labrador-retriever/ Isabeljoiner (talk) 13:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Izno (talk) 17:23, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2017

Labrador's life spam in this article compelete wrong,i checked sites about Lab Retriever and here say: Duration of life: 10 - 14 years,Origin: Terranova,Temperament:Intelligent,kind,balanced,beliver in humans,agile,life spam it's wrong 78.97.21.173 (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provides links to the specific sources you found before this change can be made. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:50, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Typo Needs Correcting

Under "US military working dogs (war dogs): Labrador Retrievers in the Vietnam war" - "The predominate canine selected by the US Military during the Vietnam War" The word "predominate" should be "predominant." If someone can change that it'd be great. 2001:16B8:22F0:9E00:1CAF:ED4F:CBAB:C41D (talk) 23:49, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

White Labradors

I see that all references to white labradors have been expunged from the article. The British Kennel Club recognises white labradors as 'yellow'. The description in the article needs to be changed from 'cream to fox red' to 'virtually pure white to fox red' or white. I don't want to be on the side of 'genetic purity' (which is responsible for so many of the ills of pedigree dogs) but as the article mentions the controversy around silver labradors, surely white Labrador need to be acknowledged. The key difference, of course, is that there is no dispute that white labs are pure-bred labs [1]. Stub Mandrel (talk) 12:12, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source; The KC describes the colours as "Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible." The AKC and FCI use similar wording too. SagaciousPhil - Chat 12:33, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
Ok, the KC have a similar view of white labradors as of silver ones? The article should, at least mention the existence of white labradors.Stub Mandrel (talk) 21:04, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
The controversy concerning "silver" labs is backed up by a reliable source - the National Labrador Retriever Breed Council, Australia - are there are any reliable sources (The KC, AKC, FCI, recognised breed clubs etc not SEOs, self published sources, personal breeder websites or forums etc) that discuss white labs? Or that "The British Kennel Club recognises white labradors as 'yellow'." At a very quick look, all I could find - other than breeder web sites - was a passing mention in The Field here. SagaciousPhil - Chat 05:37, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ [[1]]

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External links modified

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Potential Vandalism

Hi, new to editing here. It would appear that there is some vandalism on the page, or I have been severely mislead in my knowledge of dogs. The page asserts (under 6.1.1 Official Breed Standards) that Labrador Retrievers have opposable thumbs and 2 stomachs. These statements appear to not have a source, but I don't have enough knowledge about Labradors to dispute this or outright remove them in clear conscience. Any help would be appreciated thanks. ArthurDent34 (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested edit due to use of terminology that is not internationally recognised.

Under the section ‘History of Subtypes’ the contributor talks about ‘American’ and ‘English’.

This is terminolgy used in the United States only (and possibly Canada by association?) and is unheard of in other parts. For example in the United Kingdom where the breed originates, there is no such use of these terms. The equivalent would be the terms ‘Working’ and ‘Show’ to describe the growing differentiation between the two bloodlines of the breed.

American and English is factually incorrect and potentially confusing for people learning about the breed as the implication is that the types described actually come from England or America when in fact they don’t.

This should either be explained or the internationally recognised terminology should be used or also added. Wikipedia is an international resource and using colloquial terms shoukd be avoided or explained to the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 23:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Temperament

I would like to make the following changes to the Temperament section. I would like to correct the spelling of the word "Hone" in the first paragraph, as well add in information about the speculation of some that different color labs have different tendencies. This is not the case, and in my edit, I would like to add a sentence or two to clarify that.

https://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/different-color-labs-different-temperaments-6436.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aspenkb (talk • contribs) 02:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Opening Lead

One of the most popular dog breeds should be changed to the most popular dog breed. Dont say one of the top if given thing is number 1.24.44.68.4 (talk) 18:35, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Origin - source conflicts

In this article we have a number of recent web sources and breed club-related references telling us that the "Newfoundland" dog - or in other cases the "St. John's dog" - was deliberately imported into Britain by the aristocracy with the intention of developing a breed, and that these aristocrats bred the first Labrador. In the "Origins" section we now have historical reputable sources - one over 170 years old - indicating that the breed already existed and was passing through Dorset on trading ships from Canada since the early 1800s. The aristocrats then acquired them and bred them to be all black, possibly mixing them with some British breeds. Editors to note this apparent conflict - I am not sure if there is an elegant solution, and we may have to highlight that there are different opinions on the origin. Note also that this revelation of a pre-existing breed is not new, it can be found in a reference currently used in the article here,[1] but nobody ever ran with it. William Harristalk 22:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

William Harris and others, David Hancock in his Gundogs: their past, their performance and their prospects, quotes two interesting passages on the origins of the Labrador:[2]
“Sixty or seventy years ago there was a considerable trade between Poole, in Dorsetshire, and Labrador; and it is a fact that it was by these trading vessels that the first Labrador dogs were brought to this country; and that excellent sportsman, the then Earl of Malmesbury, became the possessor of some of them. So highly was he pleased with their work, especially in water, that he kept the breed up to his death. About the same time, or perhaps a little later, the late Duke of Buccleuch, the Earl of Home (who died in 1841), and Lord John Scott, imported some of the variety from Labrador. They were kept pure for many years, but the difficulty in getting fresh blood arose, so they became crossed in and out with other breeds, especially with flat-coated retrievers and Tweed water spaniels. There are even at present few retrievers on the borders of England and Scotland that have not a dash of Labrador in them.”
J. Kerss, head gamekeeper to the Duke of Buccleuch, writing in The Field magazine (1902)
“In the last century when I first remember Retrievers... a few well known sportsmen owned a number of black imported from Newfoundland which were known as the short coated Newfoundland Retrievers. Of these owners, the best known were the Duke of Buccleuch, Lord Malesbury, Lord Winbourne and a few others including my Father. When and why these dogs began to be called Labradors I could never find out. But on visiting the coasts of Labrador and Newfoundland many years ago I was surprised to be laughed at when asking to be shown a Labrador Retriever, which was unknown in that country.”
Major C.E. Radcliffe, writing in The Field (1941).
I will continue to search. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 10:57, 21 October 2019 (UTC).
Absolutely fascinating! William Harristalk 09:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Club, American Kennel. "Labrador Retriever History & Training/Temperament".
  2. ^ David Hancock, Gundogs: their past, their performance and their prospects, Ramsbury, Marlborough, Wiltshire: The Crowood Press Ltd, 2013, ISBN 978-1-84797-492-1, p. 92.

Famous Labradors

The Famous Labradors section is nearly as long as the article presumably intended to replace it: List of Labrador Retrievers. I suggest that it should be removed altogether. Comments? 2606:A000:1126:28D:80CC:FB4F:9449:9FB1 (talk) 05:14, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

The title of section 6 should remain, the link to the main page List of Labrador Retrievers should remain, and the section reflect the first paragraph of List of Labrador Retrievers in a brief form - WP:HAT. After that, everything should be merged into the List of Labrador Retrievers - there should be only one paragraph under section 6. William Harristalk 05:29, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

"Zipper Labrador" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Zipper Labrador. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15#Zipper Labrador until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TheAwesomeHwyh 17:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

"Booper" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Booper. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15#Booper until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TheAwesomeHwyh 17:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Intelligence?

The article asserts in several places that Labrador Retrievers are intelligent. How strong is the evidence for this?

I always assumed this was true, having grown up with a beloved labrador. But a dog trainer friend tells me that they're not intelligent dogs, but they have the advantage of being very "biddable".

Apologies for the sacrilege 😉. -- Chriswaterguy talk 11:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

  • Not particularly intelligent. Biddable, yes that’s a good word. Also, less scary as guide dogs than Alsatians, for example. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

There are some more intelligent breeds like the Border Collie but Labradors are capable of learning many things that other biddable breeds cannot. It is the combination of enough intelligence, enough trainability and enough reliability/steadiness that makes them useful in so many roles. Without wishing to offend anyone it is also clear that Labradors from working/field lines are in most cases easier to teach things than the lines bred for Show conformity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 13:02, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Can we change the image first image of the Labrador Retriever in the Infobox

I think that a new photo could do better — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.23.154.148 (talk) 23:20, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

What are other’s thoughts on this pic, acknowledging it is currently used at dog. Cavalryman (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
Cavalryman, can I show you the photo we could use

Pick any one you’d like — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.23.154.148 (talk) 23:47, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I find it easier to see details in the the original image (yellow lab) than in the new (black lab) image. Meters (talk) 00:44, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

What are "flying dogs" as referred to in the intro - can you explain this please?

In the intro, the term "flying dogs" is used twice, but not clearly explained (or linked to): "...developed from imported Canadian flying dogs" and "...a breed used in Newfoundland as flying dogs, that would help in bringing in the flying nets...". I'm a native English-speaking American, and I don't know what a flying dog is. While I'm sure I could eventually learn what the term as used here refers to (even though the first page of search results for "flying dog" on Google is all links to airline pet policies), should the average reader be assumed to already know what a flying dog is? joepaT 06:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Recent vandalism. Changed back to "fishing dog". Thanks. Meters (talk) 07:00, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Use

A study "recently done"- refer to an objective date, not from the writer's subjective perspective when they wrote the relevant text. Suggestion: "a 2006 study" (assuming it relates to the footnote at the end of the paragraph). 14.203.74.250 (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Origins of the breed.

The Labrador Retriever was actually created in England (United Kingdom) from a number of different ancestor types and first recorded as a breed there. The ancestor to the Labrador Retriever that came from Canada was the St. Johns Water Dog but likely includes other water dogs of mixed breed with no name. These were imported to the United Kingdom and bred with a number of existing Fisherman’s dogs, Pointers, Spaniels and Retriever types to make the Labrador Retriever. The St Johns Water Dog subsequently became extinct in Canada and all Labrador Retrievers in Canada and other countries descend from dogs that themselves descended from these United Kingdom origins. The St Johns Water dog was not the same as a Labrador Retriever and although it’s own ancestor breeds cannot be specified as there were no breed standards at that time it is thought to originate from dogs brought by fisherman visiting and settlers to Newfoundland, the majority of whom came from the United Kingdom. It may also include ancestors from native breeds as well (but this is contested) and quite likely breeds from other European countries such as Portugal, France and Spain. This is because European fisherman from many nations brought dogs with them on board their vessels when they visited Newfoundland fishing areas.

It is important to understand that at the time the first Labrador Retrievers were bred there were no official breed standards for any dogs and no kennel clubs or registration. People breeding dogs used bloodlines from many sources to create dogs with certain characteristics. It was not until the late 1800s that blood lines became registered and this cross breeding was mostly stopped. At this point the concept of pure bred blood lines became as we know it today. The breeds that existed at that time have since then been largely unchanged. But St John’s Water Dog does not equal Labrador Retriever.

One other point is that the breed name -Labrador- was based on the mistaken belief that this was the name of the area that the imported ancestors came from. When in fact is was Newfoundland. This is a mistake that would not have been made by people living in Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 13:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

https://thelabradorclub.com/about-the-breed/faqs/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 13:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

https://www.countrylife.co.uk/out-and-about/dogs/the-labrador-the-worlds-favourite-dog-80930

https://www.thelabradordog.com/history-of-labrador-retriever/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 14:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

https://www.thelabradorsite.com/the-history-of-the-labrador-retriever/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 14:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay, it does seem to be a question of what is meant by "origin" because the main genetic input for this breed originated in Canada, but the final breeding seems to have been completed in the UK. It is thus a philosophical or linguistic question, rather than a scientific one. My opinion is that the origin refers to where it started. The St. Johns water dog through some breeding adjustments became the Labrador retriever. It did not become any other type of dog, and the St. Johns even became extinct by the 1980s. To my understanding the origin is in Newfoundland, not in the UK. First draft: Canada. Final draft: UK. Jehochman Talk 15:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Hmm ... my opinion is that the origin of a breed is the place where the breed developed. We have numerous examples of breeds developed in one nation from animals originating in another – in the United States, the Brown Swiss developed from the Swiss Braunvieh, the Ankole-Watusi from African cattle of Ankole type, the American Shetland from the British Shetland Pony; the German Phoenix chicken was developed from imported Japanese birds, the Australorp from British Orpington stock, and so on. In every case the "origin" of the breed is where it was created, not where the original breeding stock came from. I don't see any reason why this dog breed might be different. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:02, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Agree completely that the country of origin is where the breed developed, both the Australian Shepherd and English Shepherd are American breeds developed from imported collies from Australia and England. On the topic of Australia all domestic dogs have been introduced in the last 232 years, one of our most iconic breeds, the Kelpie was developed from exclusively British stock. Back on gundogs, all pointers descend from the Old Spanish Pointer. Cavalryman (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC).
My issue is that the use of the word "British" by User:NBHP - United Kingdom I believe is the correct term. William Harris (talk) 06:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

At the risk of going down a Rabbit Hole - the difference is that the United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland, whilst Great Britain is the larger island in the archipelago consisting of England, Scotland and Wales. The term British used to refer to anyone from the British Isles (which included Ireland) but now tends to imply people from Great Britain only. It is somewhat analogous to American vs United States. Technically, the Labrador progenitors were bred in England with some in Scotland. British/Britain is geographical rather than national in this context but should not be used as the article is referring to nations/counties not areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 08:43, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Seems people continuously want to argue the origins of the breed so:

Seamen returning to England brought these waterdogs back for sale to both commercial hunters and the aristocracy. While commercial hunters bred their dogs indiscriminately, the aristocrats kept the breed pure as possible, and it is from these early aristocrats’ kennels that today’s Labradors are descended. The Labrador Retriever was recognized as a separate breed by The Kennel Club (England) in 1903, but as late as 1932, Labradors were still being exported from Newfoundland to aristocrats such as Sir John Middleton.

Back in Canada, the Canadian Kennel Club was formed in 1888 and, in 1892, the first two black 'retrievers' were imported from England and registered under the ownership of T.G. Davey-a noted Canadian sportsman and CKC President at the time. Born in 1891, these two dogs were 'Loyal', a male, and 'Beaver', a female.[1] - From the Labrador Retriever Club of Canada.

Also:

Origin The Labrador descended from dogs taken to Newfoundland by explorers, fishermen and settlers and evolved by natural selection. The breed was known by several names, among them the black Water Dog, the Lesser Newfoundland and the St. John’s Dog. Excellent retrievers of fish and game, they often sailed with the fishermen and in the early 1800s, English sportsmen acquired a few of the hardy dogs off the fishing boats. The British further developed the breed by crossing it with other sporting dogs, notably the Flat-coated Retriever, the Curly-coated Retriever and the Tweed Water Spaniel.[2] - from the Canadian Kennel Club.

And originally provided by another poster, an interesting article linking the St John’s Water Dog to a likely ancestor called the St Hubert’s Hound - a black labrador like dog that was common in England during the 16th and 17th century at the time English settlers from Devon were the first to permanently settle Newfoundland and also brought the first dogs there. [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by NBHP (talk • contribs) 23:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

The St. Huberts Hound from Devon was a type of dog with all the characteristics of the black Labrador and was common in Devon, England in the Middle Ages. It is accepted wisdom that these were taken by the Devon fisherman who were the original settlers in Newfoundland and once there eventually became the St. John’s Waterdog which in turn was returned to England and bred with other hunting dogs to make the Labrador Retriever. Eventually Labrador Retrievers were exported from England to all over the World (including to Canada).

So the development of the Labrador is likely: St. Huberts Hound (Devon, England) > St. John’s Water Dog (Newfoundland, Canada) > Labrador Retriever (Devon, England). (With some other cross breeding along the way). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.188.115 (talk) 22:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I recommend that the myths fabricated by breed clubs and dubious websites be disregarded. Preference should be given to WP:RELIABLE, WP:SECONDARY sources, as is WPs preference. Especially writers recognised as having some expertise in dog breed origins. I note the article has not progressed since its downgrading in 2019. 182.239.148.72 (talk) 06:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.labradorretrieverclub.ca/welcome.html
  2. ^ https://www.ckc.ca/en/Choosing-a-Dog/Choosing-a-Breed/Sporting-Dogs/Retriever-Labrador
  3. ^ https://www.riverroadretriever.com/labrador-retriever-history-part-1-are-labradors-really-from-labrador/
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