Talk:Knocked Loose

Singles

Hey @Seelentau 👋🏼

Still learning about Singles entries, so a few questions:

1. You removed “Slings and Arrows” and “All My Friends”, but kept “Mistakes Like Fractures” as a single, with “Mistakes Like Fractures (EP)” (done by me) as the album title; where can these two songs be listed? Or do they not get listed?
2. Same as “Upon Loss Singles” — can we include the names of the tracks somewhere?
3. When can we remove the ones I have marked with [citation needed] as I cannot seem to find a reliable source as them being official singles... I am for removing them right now.

Thanks for your time. Noaaah (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Noaaah, sorry if I came off as a bit abrasive. Thanks for the questions, I'm not that much of an experienced editor myself, but I'll try to answer them:

1. It depends on how those two songs were released, I assumed they are no real singles because they have no music video. But maybe I'm wrong, these days it's really unclear what even constitutes a single.
2. Yes, on a dedicated page for that single. This one was actually properly released as a single in the old-fashioned way, and even as a double-A-side single, which is pretty rare.
3. Here, it also depends on how they were released, I guess. That and how Wikipedia defines a "single". Again, these days, it seems that basically any song released prior to its respective album is a single.

So in my eyes, you can add those two songs again, or remove the others. Maybe don't use iTunes as source, though. I'd rather go with how the band describes them, or news publications like blabbermouth. Seelentau (talk) 09:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Genre

@Seelentau - Please discuss here rather than continually damage the value of the page. They are not primarily metalcore. Nothing the band has ever stated publicly indicates that they should be considered metalcore. Their website URL is http://knockedloosehc.com/ (the HC stands for "hardcore" - I'd hope that you already know this, but given your insistence that they're "metalcore", I doubt it). Their about us page on their website states that they are hardcore. There is no reference to metalcore. https://knockedloosehc.com/pages/about-us

I never said they're not hardcore. The intro is supposed to show a band's most relevant genre, which is metalcore, as can be seen in the style section of the page. Also, please sign your edits. Seelentau (talk) 17:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Their most relevant genre is hardcore, as shown by their website.Bens dream (talk)

That doesn't matter. Ill Niño calls themselves "Latin metal", yet we list them as a metal band. Slipknot (band) is widely considered nu-metal, yet we list them as heavy metal. If Knocked Loose called themselves boomer metal, we wouldn't list them as that. And an editor doesn't decide which the most relevant genre is, as @Bowling is life already told you.

That said, please don't make changes to the main genre before (or while) discussing it on the talk page. The article should stay in its original form until the edit dispute is resolved. Seelentau (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bens dream: This shouldn't even be a discussion. And I did not damage the value of the article. I improved it by adding more sources. There are four reliable sources that call them metalcore. You do not get to decide what genres a band is. Genres are not based on user opinion and changing genres to reflect your opinion is disruptive. When I moved the genre sources to the article I added more sources for the genres to. I found more sources for metalcore than hardcore punk. Both metalcore and hardcore punk are their main genres according to sources. Metalcore is listed as the first because it has the most sources and hardcore punk is what they are described as in the lead sentence because all three genres in the infobox fall under hardcore punk as either sub genres or influences. Bowling is life (talk) 20:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Yay, I'm back. @Bowling is life: it was me who changed the intro genre. Because if they are a Metalcore band, based on the number of sources, why wouldn't that genre be the one used in the intro? Seelentau (talk) 17:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Seelentau: Yes, metalcore is the most sourced genre, that's why it's the first genre listed. However, hardcore punk is listed as the main genre in the lead because every genre in the infobox is either hardcore, or influenced by hardcore. Hardcore punk is a stylistic origin of both metalcore and beatdown hardcore. So that's why the lead genre is hardcore punk. It a broad genre and it is best to include a broad genre that describes a band's sound. Although, metalcore could be the band's lead genre too. Either way would be fine, hardcore punk is just broader. Bowling is life (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

although i agree with everything that has been said about knocked loose being hardcore, it still would make more sense putting their genre as metalcore as the music itself has been named as "modern metal" and not punk as much in different sources. they have made songs with metal influences such as their death metal ep and even had a slammable death metal part in blinding faith. If we could put it as even metalcore/hardcore punk I think would be more accurate and do their music justice as said they are sandwiched between both genres and only putting one or the other wont do it justice. They did use the abbreviation hc in their social medias and website but a lot of the time bands call themselves something when to listeners they are more than that. For example, motorhead calling themselves rock n roll when articles see them as speed metal or just heavy metal. Following what the band says with calling them hardcore punk because they used an abbreviation. Figurila (talk) 19:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

That's something I didn't even consider. I didn't even know they made a death metal EP. I could see this going either way. I guess it would make more sense for the lead genre to be metalcore since it has more sources. If no one else objects, we could change the lead genre to metalcore and all their album articles too. Bowling is life (talk) 19:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I would object - whether or not they released a deathcore EP (where is the source on this BTW?) however many years ago doesn't matter, because the current music they make is not deathcore. Bands that start out as X genre and transfer to Y genre have their current genre listed. Hardcore is FAR more accurate, doubly so as it's stated by the band themselves. Bens dream (talk) 15:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

the sources are from kerrang and pitchfork "EP review: Knocked Loose – A Tear In The Fabric Of Life", "Knocked Loose: A Tear in the Fabric of Life", the current music they make now obviously isn't death metal or deathcore, but that shows how far their style reaches that isn't just some hardcore. It shows more metal influences then anything and metalcore and deathcore end up just having little hardcore influence as shown on their wiki pages, that have hardcore punk as one of the last genres and the ones before being extreme metal genres. Either way, metalcore will still have more sources and should be listed as first, that's like saying slipknot is a rock band because all their genre labels are subgenres of rock. It makes it too broad and can just be simply changed to something closer to what their music is. Figurila (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Even if they call themselves hardcore, bands do not decide what type of music they are. For example, Acid Bath may call themselves "death rock" or "gothic hardcore" but to reviewers and music listeners their sound is NOLA sludge metal. Knocked Loose calling themselves hardcore doesn't mean that they are. Figurila (talk) 16:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The first article has far more mentions of hardcore than it does anything else - "combines chest-crumpling hardcore and soul-searing death metal", "Shattering proof that, where so many of 2021’s hardcore heavyweights are looking to open doors with by splashing colour and throwing shapes, Knocked Loose have the sheer uncompromising nerve to steer", "Why Knocked Loose’s A Different Shade Of Blue was the best hardcore album of 2019", "Hardcore favourites Knocked Loose", "Modern hardcore’s most uncompromising heavyweights, Knocked Loose". It's clear as day that they're not metalcore but hardcore.

From what I know, the intro should mention the most encompassing genre. Of course most bands play songs from more than one genre, especially in metal. But the intro is not the place to go into detail on that. It should name the genre that fits the band the most. Calling them a metalcore band does not mean not calling them a hardcore band, because metalcore a combination of metal and hardcore. But calling them a hardcore band would mean not calling them a metal band, which is obviously not true, right? Seelentau (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

so calling them hardcore would leave out their metal side, why not just call them metalcore then? since metalcore is a fusion of hardcore and metal anyways, putting their main as hardcore punk wouldn't be very accurate since hardcore punk's influence have 0 metal genres of any kind. Anyway, metalcore has more sources than hardcore punk on their musical style page too 2600:8801:BE2B:2A00:34AD:B8F0:17D0:766C (talk) 04:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

oops didn't sign in Figurila (talk) 04:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

the same could also be said for others such as hatebreed, which also border metal and hardcore and get classed as metalcore Figurila (talk) 04:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thats only the first article on the EP. the second calls them a metalcore quintet with 0 mentions of hardcore. its kind of a 50/50 and might just call them metalcore/hardcore punk if other sources are like this too Figurila (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Whoever keeps reverting the page to say "metalcore" needs to stop doing this and adhere by Wikipedia's rules of discussing it on the talk page and settling on an agreement before changing. I don't want to have to get more people blocked. Alternative suggestion would be beatdown, which they also take inspiration from. We could even just say "extreme metal" which encompasses both hardcore and metalcore. However, any sources online show them as being more in the hardcore scene than metalcore, so I'm not willing to roll over and die by having it just say "metalcore" in the intro sentence. Bens dream (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Definitely not extreme metal. There is not a single source that calls this band extreme metal. I'd say leave it at hardcore punk because it encompasses metalcore and beatdown hardcore. Bowling is life (talk) 10:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bowling is life: How can hardcore encompass metalcore, when metalcore is hardcore + metal?

@Bens dream: It's funny that you say this, because this whole discussion comes from you changing the intro genre from "metalcore" to "hardcore" without discussing it on the talk page first. And now you have the audacity to insist that other users follow the policy you yourself ignored. And please don't act like you got anyone banned except yourself. My edits are my own to make, I'm the only one who got me banned. Seelentau (talk) 11:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Seelentau Hardcore encompasses metalcore exactly because it's a fusion of hardcore and metal. It's a style of hardcore, just like it's also a style of metal, and is traditionally (especially in terms of this band) tied more to hardcore. Hardcore punk is definitely the best option, it encompasses all three sourced genres perfectly: putting metalcore would exclude hardcore and beatdown, putting beatdown would exclude metalcore, putting extreme metal would exclude hardcore. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to stoop to a back and forth flame war that doesn't contribute to the topic at hand. Once again, do not revert the page from its current standing given that this discussion has since commenced. Moving on entirely from that, I agree with @Bowling is life and @Issan Sumisu, hardcore punk is by far the most accurate representation possible. To answer your question, metalcore stems from hardcore and extreme metal, and Knocked Loose fall firmly on the hardcore side instead of the extreme metal side. I merely offered extreme metal/beatdown as alternatives for the people who refuse to be appeased by the accurate tag of hardcore punk and insist on incorrectly calling them metalcore. Bens dream (talk) 12:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Issan Sumisu: Metalcore is, by our own definition, a fusion genre of hardcore punk and extreme metal. Not the other way around. So putting "metalcore" in the intro would cover hardcore punk, which Knocked Loose of course is, but putting "hardcore punk" would ignore the metal parts in KL's music.

@All: We also need to address why a user was allowed to make the initial change from "metalcore" to "hardcore punk" without a discussion on the talk page, only to then enforce a discussion when their undiscussed edit was reverted. That's not how things should go, the edit should still be made undone until we have settled things. Seelentau (talk) 12:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To answer your second question, the rule only comes into effect if an edit is "potentially controversial", and frankly the edit isn't controversial in the slightest - the only person taking issue with it is you, and incorrectly so. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge in the genres would understand that hardcore punk is a far more fitting term. Therefore the uncontroversial edit should stand - metalcore is the term in contention, not hardcore punk. I am not wasting further time explaining the rules of Wikipedia to you, I simply want this put to bed correctly. Bens dream (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course you don't see your own edit as controversial. But the reality is that it led to this discussion, two temps and countless edits to the page that could've all been avoided if you had reached out here before making the edit. Especially since the original genre is still the most sourced one. Seelentau (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Once again, the only person saying that it's controversial is yourself. Two people other than myself have also told you that hardcore punk is most fitting. I am no longer engaging in discourse on the semantics of the rules. Stop trying to deflect from the subject at hand, and have the conversation that needs to be had. The ONLY reason it's the most sourced genre is because you refused to accept the plethora of sources I gave you. Bens dream (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, to end this, I'd be open to settle for "metalcore/hardcore punk". Seelentau (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

That conflicts with MOS:NOLINKQUOTE: "do not place links next to each other". Also that the "metalcore/" still isn't needed, because that's covered by hardcore. There no reason this discussion should have gone on this long, it's such an easy fix and there's a very distinct consensus towards hardcore. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Once again agreeing with @Issan Sumisu here. Not only does it conflict with guidance, it would just look messy - it's entirely unnecessary.

But metalcore isn't covered by hardcore, as I said multiple times. It's the other way around. Seelentau (talk) 12:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

So you think hardcore is a subgenre of metalcore? Bens dream (talk) 12:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Seelentau That's not been how that has worked for the entire history of this policy on Wikipedia. A fusion genre is a subgenre of both of its parent genres, so metalcore is both a style of metal and a style of hardcore, it is included under hardcore. Even if this wasn't the case, hardcore would only exclude half of the influences of metalcore, while listing metalcore would exclude 2/3 of the sourced genres, which would be WP:UNDUE. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes exactly, metalcore is a fusion genre of metal and hardcore. It covers both main parts of what Knocked Loose plays: extreme metal and hardcore punk. That's why it should be used as the intro genre. All further details are for the infobox and main body. Seelentau (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Just because a band takes inspiration from both genres, doesn't necessarily mean that they immediately fall into the fusion subgenre. Similarly, just because a band plays metalcore, doesn't necessarily mean you can hear any hardcore influence (e.g. Adept) Bens dream (talk) 12:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Seelentau You're continuously missing the part where metalcore excludes 2/3 (the majority) of the band's band sourced genres. Anything other than hardcore is WP:UNDUE. I think you should read Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, because this discussion is clearly falling into that, it's over, the consensus is hardcore unless some additional editor pipes up. Issan Sumisu (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Beastie Boys has their genre as hip hop/rap rock, so why don't we just end this and put hardcore punk/metalcore? only putting hardcore wouldn't make sense because metalcore isn't a subgenre, its a fusion genre of punk and metal, plus hardcore isn't the only other parent genre Figurila (talk) 15:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

beatdown is called "a subgenre with prominent features of heavy metal" so we have 2 metal and punk genres/influenced and 1 fully punk genre Figurila (talk) 15:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

See MOS:NOLINKQUOTE as to why we shouldn't do this. Just because another article is incorrect doesn't mean this one should be too. Metalcore is a fusion of *hardcore* punk (distinct from just punk) and metal, so whether it's a fusion genre or a subgenre is irrelevant, as it's still derived from hardcore punk. Bens dream (talk) 15:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figurila Even if beatdown is a fusion of metal and hardcore, it does not make it a subgenre of metalcore. There were genres merging metal and hardcore before metalcore existed (see: crustcore, grindcore, crossover), and loads of hardcore takes influence from metal without being metalcore (see: Sick of It All, Judge, Inside Out). Saying that metalcore covers any merger of metal and hardcore is WP:OP. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

So should that not be on the article for Beastie Boys? Anyway putting only hardcore would exclude all the metal influences because hardcore punk has nothing to do with metal as seen by their parent genres. Figurila (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

We're getting back into beating a dead horse territory now. No, it shouldn't be in the Beastie Boys article, and no it wouldn't exclude the metal influences because it's still in the sidebar. Bens dream (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It would exclude because you would be calling the whole band hardcore and the music when metalcore has more sources than both of the other genres Figurila (talk) 16:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you need to know why both of those points aren't applicable here, reread this thread, it's described countless times. Making the same argument continuously is not a counterargument. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

When did I make the same argument twice, I've mentioned the sources once or twice which is more important then being broad and unnecessary. The page was just fine as it was Figurila (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case, Jesus Piece and Code Orange should be hardcore punk too right? Figurila (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

No, because Code Orange take far more influence from metalcore than Knocked Loose do. The page wasn't fine as it was, because Knocked Loose are predominantly a hardcore band, hence the original edit I made. Please either bring something new to the discussion or it needs to be put to bed. Metalcore does not have more sources, but both yourself and Seelentau choose to ignore the multiple sources I've provided showing that they're predominantly hardcore. Linking Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass again.Bens dream (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

And where is the sources that say Code Orange take more influence from metalcore? And all the sources that call knocked loose metalcore are just wrong then? I haven't even been in the discussion for long yet you keep linking the page to try and end it Figurila (talk) 16:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The source is that I have a functioning pair of ears, and there are very few reliable sources that call Knocked Loose metalcore. CO are still plenty more hardcore than they are metalcore *in my opinion*, but it's definitely easier to argue the metalcore claim in their case than it is for KL. Plenty of places referring to them as hardcore with metalcore elements though - which I've linked earlier in this discussion. I don't "keep linking it", that was the first time I've linked it, and Issan has also only linked it once. Re-read the thread in its entirety and bring something new to the table or put it to bed. Bens dream (talk) 16:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

We have told you many times that you don't get to decide what genres they are based on your own opinion. Whether you think they are metalcore or not is irrelevant. You are not a source for Wikipedia. And what do you mean there are very few reliable sources that call them metalcore? Look at the musical style of the article. There are five reliable sources that call them metalcore. Bowling is life (talk) 17:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to Code Orange when I said that subjectively, there's an argument to give them the metalcore tag - as an aside to the discussion at hand about Knocked Loose. My subjective opinion doesn't come into play on the Knocked Loose side of things. I've provided plenty of objective sources for them being hardcore over metalcore. You yourself said "leave it as hardcore punk". Unless anyone brings anything new to the table, I'm done responding here and will be reverting any changes and vying for a block for anyone who decides to change it back to the incorrect entry of "metalcore", which doesn't accurately describe them, as explained to death in this thread. Bens dream (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You can't remove sourced content because you disagree with it. I'm the one who added the sources for metalcore. Removing reliable sources without a good reason Bowling is life (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

What on earth are you on about "removing sourced content"? The sources would remain, but the fact is they're more accurately described as hardcore than metalcore, which you stated yourself in this very thread. Bens dream (talk) 17:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Replying to @Bens dream:. Again, you can't make changes to genres based on your opinion. You saying they are more hardcore than metalcore is entirely your opinion. You don't have a source for that. Metalcore is listed first because it has more sources, and hardcore punk works best as the lead genre because it encompasses metalcore and beatdown hardcore, and hardcore punk is also one of the infobox genres. Bowling is life (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you're not even going to bother accurately reading what I actually said, then this conversation is even more finished than I previously thought. Bens dream (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I read exactly what you said. I even directly referenced something that you mentioned in my last reply. You seem to be ignoring me every time I mention that you can't change genres based your own opinion. And this discussion can't be over until we have a consensus. To everyone in this discussion, what should the lead genre be? I suggested hardcore punk since it encompasses all the genres in the infobox. Bowling is life (talk) 21:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you bothered reading what I said, you'd be well aware that my "opinion" only came into it when discussing Code Orange, and NOT Knocked Loose. The only viable answer is hardcore punk, as explained in far more depth by Issan. Bens dream (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

If you are going to be like that, then you must not have a functioning brain that can process the guttural in blinding faith. you keep bringing up the thing to abandon the argument just to make the discussion stop and so you can keep your bias Figurila (talk) 04:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

im just going to get warned atp so whatever but we all know what it really is Figurila (talk) 04:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Metalcore doesn't have gutturals, so good job invalidating your own argument. A consensus has been reached, discussion over. Bens dream (talk) 12:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

In response to "When did I make the same argument twice", at 15:26 you wrote "only putting hardcore wouldn't make sense because metalcore isn't a subgenre, its a fusion genre of punk and metal", it was explained to you why it is and how that interferes with WP:UNDUE. Then at 16:17 you reiterated the same point by saying "It would exclude because you would be calling the whole band hardcore and the music", when it was already explained it wouldn't and you can look back in this thread and see the same point be made by Seelentau which were too disproved. Then there was the twice mention of the Beastie Boys, and the three responses which all fall into WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. This is all just WP:Deadhorse, every new point that's been brought up in this thread since the idea of slashing actively interferes with a policy already stated. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I realized too late after I read your message that fusion genres are also subgenres, my fault I was going to correct myself Figurila (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)