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Context related change of translation required[edit]
The article (twice) contains a translation from the book Magyarország története előidőktől 2000-ig (History of Hungary from the prehistory to 2000) that reads "middle power" (translated from "középhatalom"). This wording, regardless of grammatical correctness or elegance, is ambiguous; does it refer to a level of power/influence, or the (more likely) geographical location of the power?
Someone with access to the source please qualify this based on context and change the translation to either "medium power" (or better yet "medium sized power", possibly the more distinctly correct but uglier "medium level power"), or the vastly more likely "central power" (or better yet "geographically central power", as central power is itself somewhat ambiguous). If the source does not make this explicitly clear, I suggest adopting the latter interpretation as it's almost certainly the correct one. 2001:4C4E:24C9:8C00:11C6:9AF5:7543:BB2 (talk) 03:02, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While the 12th century status may well be that of a middle-power, I think King Bela IV's Hungarian state was probably the most powerful all-around European military, if not as influential politically, and there should be sources to support this - even if the Mongols made short work of them (and all the other European nations they tangled with.) 50.111.8.86 (talk) 16:03, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:53, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Monarchy in Central, Eastern and Southeast Europe”[edit]
(( UPDATE: My suggestions are as follows:
short description: “Monarchy primarily in the Carpathian Basin (1000-1946)”
lead: “The Kingdom of Hungary was a monarchy primarily situated in the Carpathian Basin, encompassing parts of the Carpathian Mountains. Prior to the early 16th century, it also encompassed parts of the Balkan Peninsula.” ))
The monarchy included parts of Europe widely regarded as Eastern Europe and Southeast Europe including Bosnia and Herzegovina, southern Croatia and parts of Ukraine and Romania. The user who reverted my edits argued that Bosnia and Herzegovina was only a vassal state. It was not, it was a banate (administrative division) within the kingdom and the Hungarian Kings appointed the Bans of Bosnia. The user implies that modern divisions of Europe have no relevance to the Kingdom but by that logic, why would it be placed in Central Europe? The Kingdom extended to areas that are widely-regarded as Eastern Europe and Southeast Europe. Bosnia and Herzegovina and Ukraine are rarely considered to be Central European, and that is not the Wiki consensus. Hungary itself is often regarded as Eastern Europe, however that is not the basis for my argument, as that is not the Wiki consensus. Furthermore, the view that the entire Carpathian Basin is in Central Europe is far from a universal view. Szirtyu (talk) 01:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The history of the whole kingdom is mainly presented in books about the history of Central Europe: Berend, Nora; Urbańczyk, Przemysław; Wiszewski, Przemysław (2013). Central Europe in the High Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland, c. 900-c. 1300. Cambridge Medieval Textbooks. Cambridge University Press. ISBN978-0-521-78156-5.. Borsoka (talk) 04:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, the source itself disputes the application of ‘Central Europe’, a modern concept (with various definitions, and in some cases absent) to the territories of the Kingdoms of Bohemia, Poland and Hungary. It is used for the purpose of comparison.
If the concept of Central Europe is to be applied to a region that extends into what is commonly regarded as Eastern and Southeast Europe, there needs to be more than one source to support this. I feel these references should also be included in the article itself. Szirtyu (talk) 12:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You may have not realised but so far only one academic source was cited. This source (mentioned above) verifies the use of the geographical term "Central Europe" in the article's context. Borsoka (talk) 17:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Szirtyu "the view that the entire Carpathian Basin is in Central Europe is far from a universal view." by who? Do you have academic sources for your statement?
Hypotethical, if Ukraine conquer Hungary+Austria, then Austria became Eastern Europe instantly, even in the past? I do not think so. Geography does not change every decades just because borders are changing always during history. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source itself disputes the application of ‘Central Europe’, a modern concept (with various definitions, and in some cases absent) to the territories of the Kingdoms of Bohemia, Poland and Hungary. It is used for the purpose of comparison.
A single source stating that the Kingdom of Hungary was in Central Europe, a source which itself disputes that idea, is not enough. Szirtyu (talk) 17:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have many statements, but you was unable yet to show any modern academic sources to support your statements. So please do that. Wiki is based on sources. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One source is not enough to place the entire Kingdom of Hungary in Central Europe. Most definitions of Central Europe exclude Bosnia and Herzegovina and Ukraine. As can be seen on their own articles, neither is placed in Central Europe:
Ukraine and Romania in Eastern Europe (also including Hungary, but my argument is not based upon that, because Hungary’s Wiki article places it in Central Europe, whereas Ukraine’s does not):
short description: “Monarchy primarily in the Carpathian Basin (1000-1946)”
lead: “The Kingdom of Hungary was a monarchy primarily situated in the Carpathian Basin, encompassing parts of the Carpathian Mountains. Prior to the early 16th century, it also encompassed parts of the Balkan Peninsula. Szirtyu (talk) 18:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Szirtyu, when Kingdom of Hungary existed it was not Ukraine state which exist since 1991. You can use your rule to a big country like Ukraine: Ukraine
The cultural-spatial borders of Europe according to the Standing Committee on Geographical Names, Germany. The map displays two different segment-bordering ways superimposed on each other.[2]
located in Eastern Europe but its Transcarpathian area is part Central Europe. If you want split Kingdom of Hungary and the Carpathian basin by 3 geographical part, why you do not want split other modern countries by geography? Kingdom of Hungary will not be on Eastern Europe, because of Transylvania, Transylvania will be not Eastern Europe just because the border changed and rest of Romania is part of Eastern Europe.
Hungary is very center of Europe by geography, look at any map.
By your definiton they are also Eastern Europe: Czech Republic, Poland, we can see Central Europe in the article, do you want overwrite those countries too? OrionNimrod (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
i am baffled by your response. neither of those maps challenge what i said. i already stated that the placement of present-day Hungary is not what my point is based on. Neither of the maps you displayed place Ukraine, Romania or Bosnia and Herzegovina in Central Europe. in the second, the territories I am referring to are placed in Eastern and Southeast Europe, supporting my point. here, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Romania are placed in Southeast Europe Europe and Ukraine is placed in Eastern Europe. The Kingdom of Hungary was not limited to Central Europe, it makes more sense to describe its location using the Carpathian Basin and Mountains and the Balkan Peninsula. Central Europe is a modern concept, why would you place the whole of the Kingdom of Hungary in Central Europe based on one book (which itself challenges the validity of this)? Szirtyu (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why do we list every single regions instead providing the main concept: Central Europe. Readers should know Hungary locates in Europe. The Carpathian Basin is located in Central Europe, but but Central Europe is the parent region. That is the lead, there are many sections and articles which provide more detailed info about the location of Hungary. My linked map clearly shows the border of Kingdom of Hungary as Central Europe and with today borders. If Transcarpathia would be not part of Ukraine just a separate state, then would you say that is Eastern Europe? OrionNimrod (talk) 22:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
well this is about the location of the historical Kingdom of Hungary, which spanned the territories of several countries that exist today, not Hungary itself.
to your question, for me it would depend on whether transcarpathia was commonly regarded as eastern or central Europe Szirtyu (talk) 01:20, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As you mentioned that political regional divisions are modern concept. I bet nobody determined in the past that the polticial border between central and eastern europe will be inside the Carpathian basin when kingdom of Hungary existed. Do you say Zahony at the Hungarian border is central Europe and Beregszasz some km far at the Ukrainian border is eastern Europe? Both city was part of kingdom of Hungary and locates inside the Carpathian basin. In this case, saying “Central Europe” means not political but geography, that state more or less locates in the center part of Europe, and not in north Europe, not in southwestern Europe, not in Asia... Like something is south of the Danube or north of the Danube. But of course below in the detailed sections we can determine the smaller geography regions inside Europe like Carpathian Basin, Alpen, Appenin penisula, Balcan mountains, Great Hungarian plain, Transylvania, British isles, etc OrionNimrod (talk) 10:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
^Jordan, Peter (2005). "Großgliederung Europas nach kulturräumlichen Kriterien" [The large-scale division of Europe according to cultural-spatial criteria]. Europa Regional. 13 (4). Leipzig: Leibniz-Institut für Länderkunde (IfL): 162–173. Retrieved 21 January 2019 – via Ständiger Ausschuss für geographische Namen (StAGN).
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Central Europe according to The World Factbook (2009),[1] Encyclopædia Britannica, and Brockhaus Enzyklopädie (1998). There are numerous other definitions and viewpoints.
The cultural-spatial borders of Europe according to the Standing Committee on Geographical Names, Germany. The map displays two different segment-bordering ways superimposed on each other.[2].svg)
