Talk:Kinga of Poland

Date of birth

Quite a bunch of sources say she was born 1224, when Bela was 18. The catholic encyclopedia say 1224, both Italian and in English. http://www.santiebeati.it/dettaglio/91017. [1] This too. [2] This too. [3] [4] I am affraid it will be difficult to change this based on one source. Hafspajen (talk) 03:59, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Maria and Béla IV of Hungary had ten children:

• Margaret of Hungary (c. 1220 – 20 April 1242). Married Guillaume de Saint-Omer. Her husband is often listed in genealogies as "Lord of Thebes". However he might be confused with Bela de Saint-Omer, an older brother who held the title jure uxoris.
• Saint Kinga of Poland (5 March 1224 – 24 July 1292), She was married to King Boleslaus V of Poland, after his death becoming a nun and abbess; she was canonized by Pope John Paul II in 1999.
• Anna of Hungary (c. 1226 – after 1270). Married Rostislav of Slavonia.
• Catherine of Hungary (c. 1229–1242). She died while fleeing with her family following the Battle of Mohi.
• Elizabeth of Hungary (c. 1236 – 24 October 1271). Married Henry XIII, Duke of Bavaria.
• Constance of Hungary (c. 1237 – after 1252). Married Leo I of Halych.
• Blessed Yolanda of Hungary (c. 1238–1298). Married Boleslaus of Greater Poland. Later became a nun and abbess, who has been declared as a candidate for sainthood.
• Stephen V of Hungary (December 1239 – 6 August 1272).
• Saint Margaret of Hungary (27 January 1242 – 18 January 1271). Named after an older sister. Canonized by the Roman Catholic Church in 1943, for whom Margaret Island in Budapest is named, having been the place where a royal monastery was established by her parents for her.
• Béla, Duke of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia (c. 1243–1269). Married Kunigunde of Brandenburg, a daughter of Otto III, Margrave of Brandenburg. His widow married Waleran IV of Limburg.

This source say different. I don't know about this source. ref>The Annales Cracovienses Compilati records the birth in 1234 of Kinga filia Bolezlay (Annales Cracovienses Compilati 1234, Monumenta Germaniæ Historica Scriptorum XIX, p. 597), the Annales Polonorum clarifying that she was Kinga fila regis Ungarie Bele et de matre Maria born in dominica quinquagesima (Annales Polonorum I 1234, Monumenta Germaniæ Historica Scriptorum XIX, p. 632).</ref Hafspajen (talk) 04:01, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies, you use to write hagiographies, the above source, I can't judge it. Should we add that this and that source say different? Hafspajen (talk) 00:12, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• The Monumenta Germaniae Historica are highly reliable but your reference may be to a primary document, rather than an introduction, an editorial comment, etc. If it is to a primary document it cannot be accepted as reliable. Now, much of it is available online (follow the link)--though, perhaps unfortunately, it's probably in Latin. :) Drmies (talk) 01:13, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I tried but I am not getting anything, [5][6]]

I am having a really hard time with this. www.dmgh.de does not seem to be running, and mgh.de is not the easiest site to search: for the life of me, I can't find the page where they have a long list of their books and links to the PDFs. Next time I find it I'm going to download them all, Aaron Swartz-style. A Google Book search gives the same kind of citation for "Annales Polonorum" (plenty of times), but there is no "MGH Scriptorum XIX"--though there is Annales Poloniae, eds. Wilhelm Arndt and Richard Roepell, the same editors listed for the Scriptorum XIX entry. I think it's time to call in the experts--Eltheodigraeardgesece, are you busy? Drmies (talk) 17:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies shall we add this like however this source say... or? But all Catholic Encyclopedias give 1224 as birth date... Since she was made to saint I think they use to do some kind or research on the person and she was made saint like ten years ago or so, so I am a bit at loss here. I mean it should have been recorded maybe somehow, and I manage Latin but can't find the source. Hafspajen (talk) 03:02, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies and Hafspajen: is this what you were trying to find? The source ref you were following up specifies "Scriptorum XIX", but the dMGH Web site catalogues the series in question under "Scriptores (in Folio)", which might explain why you were having trouble tracking it down. The full reference to the MGH volume is: Monumenta Germaniae historica: Scriptorum tomus XVIIII, ed. G.H. Pertz (Hanover, 1866). The entry for the year 1234 in the Annales Cracovienses Compilati (primary document) does indeed record the birth of Kinga filia Bolezlay, to which the following note by the editor G.H. Pertz is appended:

  Locus corruptus. Rectius in Ann. Pol. I. IV: nascitur Kinga filia regis Ungariae Bele et de matre nomine Maria in dominica quinquagesima (Mart. 5.), quam duxit Bolezlaus filius Lestconis. Cf. Gesch. Pol. I, 497. et Dlugoss. I, 663, quo loco a. 1204. errore typographi pro a. 1234. legitur. Miraculum, quod autor l. l. narravit, invenies in Ann. Pol. I. ad a. 1239. Vitam Kunegundis a Dlugosso conscriptum ediderunt Bolandistae ad 24. Iulii.

  I have no expertise in this field, but this would seem to be an important note, the gist of which is that the passage in question (sc. "in the year 1234 was born Kinga, daughter of Bolezlay") is corrupted, and that the more correct form of the passage is to be found in the entry for a. 1234 in the Annales Polonorum I, where we read that "in the year 1234, on March fifth, was born Kinga, daughter of Béla, the King of Hungary, and from a mother whose name was Maria, and Bolezlaus (the son of Leszek) ... took her as wife."

  (Continuing with the content of the editorial note:) See volume 1 of Geschichte Polens (?), p. 497, and also volume 1, p. 663 of the Historia Polonica of John Dlu'Gloss, where, because of a typographical error, the year "1204" is printed in place of the year "1234". You will find a miracle (described by the author in that same book [sc. Historica Polonica]), in the entry for a. 1239 of the Annales Polonorum I. The Life of Kinga (or Cunegunda) that was written by Dlu'Gloss was published by the Bollandists on the 24th of July.

  That's the essence of the editorial note for the year 1234 in the Annales Cracovienses Compilati. I should add that the "miracle" mentioned here by the Pertz refers to the entry for a. 1239 in the Annales Polonorum I, which reports that Bolesław took Kinga as "a good and holy wife" when she was but 5 years old: and then, as yet unable to speak, she miraculously uttered her first words Ave regina!, or "hail, queen!" (Compare this to the Annales Polonorum II, where Kinga is said to be wed to Bolesław in the year 1274 [when she would have been 40], with no attendant miracle.) I should also add that, in another editorial note to the year 1239 of the Annales capituli Cracoviensis, Pertz explains that, despite conflicting records, there can be no doubt that it was in the year 1239 that Bolesław took Kinga as his wife (he cites the diploma of one Grymislava, which confirms that the "marriage" took place in 1239). If Pertz is indeed correct, then I would suggest that the Wiki article for Kinga, which currently reads "She reluctantly married Bolesław V", needs to be revised, as I do not think it makes sense to talk about 5-year-olds reluctantly marrying anyone ("forcibly" would be a more appropriate adverb, no?). Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 20:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies all Catholic Encyclopedias give 1224 as birth date... But why? what a mess - now. Hafspajen (talk) 21:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• I could be way off the mark here, Hafspajen, but might the editors of the Catholic Encyclopedia have found some excuse or other to push Kinga's birthdate back 10 years in order to avoid any embarrassment implicit in her having been given away in marriage at the age of 5? It is the sort of thing that happens, especially in older scholarship.Eltheodigraeardgesece (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

All is possible. But I don't know anything about what sources they used. The weird thing is that her life will be considerably less than before too, if this is true. Hafspajen (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

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