Talk:Khorshidi dynasty

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Why was the Kurdish pronunciation removed? (Temet Nosce (talk) 00:43, 11 December 2020 (UTC))[reply]

Identity[edit]

Do we have a source that specifically calls them Kurds? Being descended from the Kurdish Hazaraspids does not guarantee the continuation of a Kurdish dynasty, that would be like calling European houses such as the Romanovs for German. When expanding Safavid Lorestan, I found three sources that refer to them as Lors;

"He also mounted two campaigns against the Lur leader, Shahvirdi Khan, who sought refuge with the Ottomans, but was finally captured and put to death in 1597 or 1598." - p. 48, Blow, David (2009). Shah Abbas: The Ruthless King Who Became an Iranian Legend

"Khorramabad served as a capital city for ruling Lor tribal leaders of the era from 1184 to 1596, when an Atābak dynasty of Lor-e Kuček (see ATĀBAKĀN-E LORESTĀN) ruled the area in a more or less independent way, however, severely hampered by an almost total destruction through Mongol invasions in the 13th and 14th centuries." - KHORRAMABAD, Iranica

"Like the Ardalan Kurds, the Abbasi Lors also tried to keep both the Safavids and Ottomans at arms' length." - p. 234, Floor, Willem (2008). Titles and Emoluments in Safavid Iran: A Third Manual of Safavid Administration, by Mirza Naqi Nasiri.

One source even says they were descended from Lurs; "a dynasty of Atābegs [see atabak ] which ruled in northern and western Luristān between 580/1184 and 1006/1597 with K̲h̲urramābād as their capital. The Atābegs were descended from the Lur tribe of D̲j̲angrūʾī (D̲j̲angardī?). The dynasty is also known by the name of K̲h̲urs̲h̲īdī from the name of the first Atābeg." Lur-i Kūčik, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked into it as much but older texts refer to it as Kurdish. We have Marco Polo, but Bitlisi also mentions a Kurdish Chinginids dynasty in Lorestan (which could be Djangardi). Djangardi isn't described as Lur at Iranica[1]. Also, this edit should have been reverted since its not in the reference. [2] Semsûrî (talk) 16:49, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Both Marco Polo and Bitlisi are primary sources. Do we have any academic secondary sources? The ethnicity of the Jangardi is not mentioned in Iranica, nor are the Khorshidis. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's sufficient RS enough for it to be called a Lur dynasty. There's not much about it being explicitly Kurdish other than being related to Hazaraspids. Semsûrî (talk) 17:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I'll make the change then. Thanks for participating in the discussion. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:40, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is confusing. Where exactly are the Khorshidi referred to as relatives of the Hazaraspids? As far as I can see, Iranica does not mention it (they simply mention the two different lines that ruled parts of Lorestan, the Hazaraspids and Khorshidi). The new Islamic dynasties briefly mentions the Khorshidi in Hazaraspid section in The new Islamic dynasties, but does not mention that they were related. The two brothers in Little and Greater Lorestan bit seems to be a legend, and predates both the Khorshidi and Hazaraspids by two centuries. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it was likely taken from the brothers' story. Semsûrî (talk) 20:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have countless sources that forbid these any theories and accusations. "Lur" alone needs proof that it was an ethnic collective of history, especially since we have sources that prove that today's "Lur" separated from the Kurds and that the Kurdish culture of the time and language was still used at this point. These sources also prove that these are ethnic Kurds, so this discussion should be over and the version history on Semsurî yours should be reversed.

Another point is the relationship to the Hazaraspids, which according to sources had a very close bond, which only further puts the two dynasty leaders understood each other linguistically and culturally and now the point is again that they were Kurds. Brûkî27 (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please read what WP:VANDAL means before you throw random accusations towards other editors [3]. And please post those 'countless' sources here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]