Talk:Keith Godchaux

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Requested move[edit]

Support[edit]

  • Support. He is the only Keith Godchaux I could find of any notability. youngamerican (talk) 23:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done... plus Donna Jean Godchaux and Donna Jean Godchaux (musician) have been moved to Donna Godchaux --rogerd 02:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose[edit]

New Riders?[edit]

Don't think Keith Godchaux was ever with The New Riders of the Purple Sage. If he was, the NRPS page needs to show it. 98.210.102.208 (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the sentence, which said "Godchaux also appeared with the New Riders of the Purple Sage." He actually did "appear with" them for at least one concert, which ended up being released as the album Worcester, MA, 4/4/73, but the sentence made it sound like he was a member of NRPS, which he wasn't. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Musical style[edit]

Recently there have been a few edits about Godchaux's musical style. At the moment the article reads, "Godchaux never played jazz but incorporated an excellent rudimentary and boogie-influenced piano during his tenure with the Dead, complimenting the band's improvisational approach to rock music." It would be nice to reach a consensus about this. I certainly think Godchaux's playing was not "rudimentary" in any way. It also might be more neutral and encyclopedic, and therefore better, not to say that it was "excellent". As for his actual style, I guess it was boogie-influenced, but it was also jazz- and other genres- influenced. Ideally a reliable reference could be found and quoted. I'm looking at page 411 of A Long Strange Trip by Dennis McNally, and, describing a studio session where Godchaux was trying out for the band, it says, "Even though he'd never practiced Dead tunes, Keith was instantly right. They'd throw him musical curves, Kreutzmann said, and he never missed — he was just a great jazz and free music player." In conclusion, I would tend to favor the previous version of this part of the article, which said, "Godchaux played jazz- and boogie-influenced piano during his tenure with the Dead, complimenting the band's improvisational approach to rock music," but I'd be quite interested to hear other editors' opinions. — Mudwater (Talk) 14:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those edits have been made by me based on the fact that I can and will cite every single example of his playing from 1971 - 1974. Never once in his entire career with the Grateful Dead did he play an inversion of a chord, never once did he play a single bebop line in his career with the Grateful Dead. Rudimentary is his style and he played boogie as his variant theme depending on the tune. There's no guessing or mystery to his style. He was an excellent addition to the Grateful Dead and the needed bridge to get them from the Fire Breathing Dragon sound to the Working Quintet sound. Jazz is a measurable sound. It's quantified by set rhythms (primarily swing) and set use of modal and structural harmonies. By any definition you couldn't even call his playing jazzy. He was strictly to the bone, very practical, using triads and block chords and when the band got hot he moved into a easily definable sound of boogie. However, jazz was his not idiom or his palette. Perhaps we can agree based on his actual playing not Billy the K's misunderstood quote - that he played blues.
Who cares what he never played? That was an admittedly horrible addition by me. I will would like to cite Bertha October 23, 1971 as definitive boogie playing. I would like to cite June 26, 1974 I Know You Rider as rudimentary. Rudimentary doesn't mean bad! It's the exact definition his approach. But any show, any jam, any tune, you will not be able to cite anything that constitutes as jazz in his playing.
Keith was a great listener, very solid player and played an integral part in their most imaginative period which was 1971 - 1974. I would say 68 - 70 was their most innovative and bombastic years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicsole (talk • contribs) 21:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can see that you're serious about the Grateful Dead's music, and that you've given a lot of thought to this. That's good. Another thing to be aware of is that, as a very general rule of thumb for Wikipedia articles, opinions as well as facts should have reliable references. Ideally any article should cite secondary sources. For detailed explanations of this, see, among other guidelines, Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:No original research. Because of this it would be better to avoid saying that Godchaux's playing is "excellent" or "rudimentary", unless you're quoting a published source. Also in my view there's room to debate whether or not his playing was jazz-influenced, as shown by the quote from the McNally book (where I think McNally and not Kreutzmann was talking about jazz and free music, although either way it's a published reference). As far as unreferenced opinion goes, I think most people would say that, for example, his electric piano playing on "King Solomon's Marbles" on Blues for Allah is more jazz than boogie influenced. At any rate, I'm certainly open to further discussion on this question, with you and any other interested editors. "P.S." The usual protocol is to sign your discussion page posts by putting four tildes at the end, i.e. put "~~~~" (without the quotes) at the very end. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is the death of reliable sources and the beginning of plagiarism and nonsense as normal behavior. (But that's another story.) There is no documented source in publication history as Grateful Dead as a jazz band. They took aspects of jazz but never once did they play jazz. They played improvisation which ultimately is immediate composition. I agree adjectives are absolutely useless and should be killed on the spot. There is no debate about his playing as jazz. I completely disagree on that point. Dennis McNally was the Grateful Dead's publicist. He got Garcia reservations at a restaurant. He is not a reliable source to define free music or jazz but I will be, McNally could tell the difference. Kreutzmann approach his drum playing in swing time and use many elements of what defines as jazz drumming. However, Phil Lesh never EVER walked a bass line. He, like Weir were the unique aspects of their playing. Garcia in his prime was excellence but he never played jazz. His closest approach was Eyes of the World using an major 7th chord but the chorus is rudimentary folk! However, Keith never played an inversion over that. Jazz is about inversion and substitutions of chords. I just listened to King Solomon both on record and live. Nope. Not jazz. Just that incredibly wholly original mesh of rock and elements of middle eastern rhythms and tones. Crazy Fingers is a great example of Garcia choosing JAZZ VOICINGS but putting it in a rock context.

Ironically the Dead took the improv approach not from Jazz. They took it from The Paul Butterfield Blues Band album East meets West. The Dead were wholly original and imaginative. Here are two things that I figured out. A) You don't own a piano. B) If you did you would realize how incredibly rudimentary Keith was. I don't mean that as a snide remark on his playing. It's the truth about his playing. There is a show the Dead did and for whatever reason he was up in the mix. December 6, 1973. That is PRIME KEITH. He is killing it start to finish. Check out Loser and you'll hear him play the riff that Garcia used later for Terrapin.

The big picture is we can compose an accurate and respectful entry for Keith Godchaux and his valuable contributions to the Grateful Dead. but jazz is about those flat5 notes and i don't hear any in his playing. Check out Thelonious Monk or Bill Evans, Duke Ellington, Keith Jarrett to sharpen your eyes to how Keith's greatest influence was Little Richard or Jerry Lee Lewis, he copped a ton of Nicky Hopkins style licks too. THIS IS MUSICSOLE! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicsole (talk • contribs) 02:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the Grateful Dead was a jazz band, or that they played jazz. But certainly they were influenced by jazz. I believe I've read that both Garcia and Lesh listened to a lot of jazz, and that that strongly affected the band's approach to musical improvisation, more so I suspect than a Butterfield Blues Band album. At any rate, if you agree that adjectives are best avoided, what do you think about taking out the phrase "excellent rudimentary"? The sentence in question would then read, "Godchaux incorporated a boogie-influenced piano during his tenure with the Dead, complimenting the band's improvisational approach to rock music." — Mudwater (Talk) 03:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course they listened to jazz. Lesh more classical and avant garde and Garcia more bluegrass. First,before I begin to go on a tangent, I like the line. I still say rudimentary was his primary style. Interestingly enough the Dead themselves hardly ever, if at all, talked about their musical idioms. Garcia absolutely was inspired to play the way he did by listening to Mike Bloomfield in the Paul Butterfield Blues Band based on that one album. Garcia's supreme talent besides songwriting was finding the right note and the right time very consistently. I could explain all his measurable talents on his page. But I assure you that Garcia was a Mike Bloomfield clone up until late 1969. Once Weir got his approach evolving that's when Garcia had a better foil and palette to play over. He also at that time was investing alot of time into looking at modal approaches instead of scales. But believe me, that one album East Meets West is where they got their idea to "jam". Listening to jazz as a paradigm is simple. The head is played, then one soloist at a time. The Dead had everyone improvising at once. East Meets West is the origin of that concept.

Wait, you don't recall anyone saying they played jazz? Then how did Keith play jazz influence? That was my main concern. Jazz is a discernible sound. You can tell who is black and asian but you couldn't tell me if there were chinese or haitian without further investigation. Is the haitian guy - black influenced? If you are influenced by something it would show up in your playing. It never showed in Keith's playing. That's what I was trying to get at.

The GD were the greatest american rock and roll band that ever was or will be. In fact, strictly american bands, you actually, ironically, have to reference jazz bands that were in their league. There's nothing like them in recorded history but East Meets West was a direct influence and so was Court & SPark by Joni Mitchell which influenced their 75 material. But Joni actually used all the actual elements of jazz on that album. Chord choices, inversions, swing time, and jazz nuances such as bebop and modes.

Still can't figure how to sign off! Musicsole! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicsole (talk • contribs) 19:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thoughtful and interesting discussion. I'm planning on checking out that album when I get a chance, I'm pretty sure I've never heard it. To sign your posts on talk pages (but not articles), put four tildes (i.e. "~~~~", without the quotation marks) at the very end of your post. I also recommend that you check out the editing tutorial, it's very helpful and has good links to more info. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

East-West is not earth shattering. Their first album is fantastic Chicago blues. It's a true artifact of that time and place. The second album was a stretch. Check out 10.21.1971 Keith's 3rd show 10-21-1971 Dark Star > Sitting On Top Of The World > Dark Star > Me & Bobby McGee - an incredible sequence and a what proves to be a glimpse into their most important phase of March 1972 - October 1974. Personally I think they gave up the ghost by June 1978. Garcia himself had some incredible moments post '78 when he was in the band Reconstruction. It's as if he hated playing in the Dead because he tears it apart in that band. — Musicsole (Talk) 00:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Phil Lesh's quote[edit]

Where does this quote from Phil come from? I don't see any references for it:

Lesh has retrospectively opined that by 1978, "Keith's playing had degenerated to the point that most of us were simply trying to lose him onstage... never a paragon of self-esteem, Keith's increasing drug & alcohol use had put him in an almost vegetative state. His musical timing was suffering, and he had developed some annoying habits onstage, notably slavish imitation of Jerry's lead lines, a tic that began to irritate Jerry to no end."

If no reference can be cited, can somebody please remove it. Keith was a friend, and I was close to the band during the period in question. I don't believe everything stated above is true. If Phil said it, so be it, but please cite the source. If I may address each part of the quote:

Keith's playing had degenerated to the point that most of us were simply trying to lose him onstage I suppose this is possible, though I never heard Phil or anyone state anything quite this way. The fact of the matter is that the whole band was out of sync for various reasons: Keith was often anesthetized and unable to sync up with everyone else; Jerry and Phil were often coked up and on the opposite end of the synchronization problems; and Bobby and Donna were often too drunk to stay in sync, sometimes ahead of the curve, other times behind it. The bottom line is they were all impaired, and no one more than another. Keith just never speed-balled as Jerry did, and so his impairment was unique.

His musical timing was suffering, and he had developed some annoying habits onstage, notably slavish imitation of Jerry's lead lines, a tic that began to irritate Jerry to no end. I don't ever recall Keith imitating Jerry's lines (or Jerry being annoyed about it for that matter). The rest of it may be true (I know his timing suffered, and I know he was so intoxicated on some occasions that he did little more than play chords).

As I said - I don't see a source for the quote from Phil. If it's legitimate, fine, please cite the source; otherwise please remove it. People are beginning to repeat this in online circles, and I think it's a sad day in Grateful Dead history when Keith's leaving the band is being attributed solely to substance issues impacting his ability to play his instrument (the fact of the matter is that mistakes from Keith are rarely detectable, now that there is so much material available to the public - you can find more issues with Bobby, Jerry, and Phil's playing than Keith's). The reason he left was largely to do with the stress that road life and drugs were having on his personal life, and the fact that he had less space to play with Mickey back in the band. Mostly, he was a piano player, and Jerry and Phil wanted more synthesizers.

I would ask that the quote be removed regardless of whether there is a legitimate source for it or not, as it is subjective in nature (if Phil did say it) and not necessarily true; but the damage it is doing to Keith's legacy is real. There is so little material about Keith's departure available that people rely on Wiki as gospel truth. It would be one thing if multiple sources close to the band all said Keith imitated Jerry's lines due to the impact of drugs and that he could no longer play (think Keith Moon); but here we have one questionable quote from one person, in a short article, one of the few that talks about Keith's departure. The man is dead and cannot defend his position. I would say leave it up there if you could even find the evidence in the live recordings, but it's simply not there. Please remove this misleading information about Keith, I beg you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.242.92.97 (talk) 22:22, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that an appropriate reference is needed for this quote. For now I'm going to remove it from the article. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Pronunciation please[edit]

Please provide a pronunciation for the surname Godchaux. IPA or plain ol' English is fine. Thank you. 66.97.20.206 (talk) 23:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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