Talk:Kayak roll

Eskimo Roll redirect

User:Bennyboyz3000 (Talk | contribs) blanked the Eskimo Roll article, replacing it with the Kayak Roll article. This was done without any discussion. I believe it was a mistake. The term "Eskimo Roll" is at least as common as "Kayak Roll." (Google: "Eskimo Roll": 54,400 hits; "Kayak Roll": 40,900 hits) In Wikipedia, the term "Eskimo Roll" is more common than "Kayak Roll." Apart from making the article's editing history difficult to access, this change results in cascades of redirects and indirect links. I believe the term, "Eskimo Roll," is the correct term for this article and should be restored as such.--HughGRex 15:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I did so (I admit a mistake on my part not posting on the talk page) because this is an encyclopedia and I believe we should use proper terms for things. An Eskimo roll describes one particular (now obsolete) type of roll which is a cross between the c-to-c and back-deck roll. I don't think there is any point in having separate pages for each type of kayak roll. I intend to cleanup and expand the kayak roll article when I get time, but I am flat out getting the Kayaking WikiProject up and running (join us!). I am have been a whitewater kayaking instructor for five years now and I know that an article on all kinds of kayaking rolls would be more appropriate than an article using a common incorrect name. I have correcting the single wrong redirect. Like many terms, ones in the public vocabulary are often incorrect, and I believe a redirect is sufficient. Bennyboyz3000 07:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Geez, look what a n00b I used to be! :-P --Ben ^hello! 07:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not only should you have discussed the change on the Talk Page, but I think it would have been better if you'd proposed the change and allowed other editors to weigh in before making the change unilaterally.

Of course an encyclopedia should use the correct terms. However, I don't think that your understanding of the terminology is as universal as you think. The terminology that you describe may be common in your area, but I don't think it's necessarily correct to use the term "Eskimo Roll" to refer to only one kind of roll. Do you have a reference for your understanding of the "correct" terminology? I can refer you to Derek Hutchinson's book, Eskimo Rolling (see link in the article), which describes a multitude of types of roll (Screw Roll, Steyr Roll, Pawlata Roll (which truly is an obsolete roll—I recall using it 14+ years ago!), C-to-C Roll (though I'm quite sure he uses different terminology for that one—I don't have the book handy, however)…), all under the general heading of "Eskimo Roll." So at least one very solid reference supports the use of the term, "Eskimo Roll," to encompass all types of kayak roll. Unless you can show that your understanding of the terminology is truly universal, I think it would be best if this article reverted to that name.--HughGRex 11:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Eskimo Roll is the most common term in my neck of the woods. I've heard this term ( and the procedure that goes with it ) has fallen out of style for river boats, but that's very much not the case in sea kayaking. These two styles of the sport are Hatfields and McCoy's; either camp believes theirs is the only way. A river boat teacher thinking a trick he doesn't use is "obsolete" fits with this view.

Further, I can't fathom why an encyclopedia should have fewer articles? Maybe we should combine the articles on hydrogen, helium, etc, and fold all of them into an article on "elements?" I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.138.32.33 (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Just looking at the history I noticed someone removing information concerning rolling a Canoe. "you cant roll a canoe i took out the canoe in the opining paragraph" I think its already been agreed on that you can. Both C-1s and C-2s (with a little teamwork) can be rolled and even Candian Canoes, given the right boyancy and airbags are used, can be rolled. I will modify some portions to represent this. Feel free to undo or correct anything I add. John Dovey 09:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Just added the Pawlata roll. This was the one I was taught first and my impression is it's the standard rolling start point for BCU/SCA coaches: I'd not heard of the C to C before looking at the page, so I wonder if the comment about it being the first taught roll is Americentric? Not close enough to formal coaching programmes to be sure enough to hack the text concerning that point, so I didn't! Pete (talk) 15:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Me nether. (always kinda wondered at the spelling btw) Maybe UK/USA rolls are slightly different but BCU never taught it to me. To be honest from the description, it sounds extremely similar to a screw roll, or at least what I was taught as a screw roll when I was doing my racing and instructers stuff way back when god was a kid.

I followed the links to some of the pages about different types of roll and they all sound very similar. I can't really see the difference between the (previously unknown to me) c2c roll and the good old screw roll that saved my arse a few times in the Alps. Seems to be pretty much the same except without the emphasis on leaning back to reduce your moment... Probably a lot of the roll varients are there just for boring people to learn so that they can say they know 22 different rolls. Get a fast roll, a dependable roll and a hand roll into muscle memory and jobs a good-un imosho. -- HighlyErratic 15:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I've beefed up some of the text in the roll types in an effort to let people unfamiliar with them visulise and follow what goes on, but I'm not sure it is there yet. We need diagrams! Feel free to adjust. I think if we beef up the roll descriptions the whole "4 Elements of a Sweep Roll" section is redundant. Maybe it could be made generic or probably just dropped?

I've only successfully rolled a whitewater racing C2 once which was a bit of a shame but we were only goaded to enter it as it gave us some extra practice time for the kayak races - respect to those of you who can consistantly pull it off! I personally saw a bear of a Swiss man roll an aluminium Canadian, once in Swiss wild-water week, and the next week at the artificial course in Augsberg. Both times, he waited until his wife bailed out then rolled it up himself. Not sure how he made that up to her? -- HighlyErratic 20:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The section about the C-to-C Roll credits it's invention to an American chap called Ken Kastorff while our C-to-C Roll page says it was invented by another one called (rather improbably) Mick Mouse. Perhaps the C-to-C Roll article should be merged. Alansplodge (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Gentle revision

The page should probably be simplified to say what is a kayak roll is and give a few examples of different types. The historical aspects and full breakdown of individual rolls would then be moved out to their own pages. A few small steps would probably be simpler to manage than one big one. We also need to play nicely and take care about our viewpoint. --GhostInTheMachine (talk) 14:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the notion that the page should be "simplified" to a statement of what an Eskimo Roll is on the ground that we are running an Encyclopedia here, not a dictionary. While it is Wiki policy not to offer "instructional" material, I argue here that it is error to view the present text for "Kayak Roll" as "instructional." I argue that it is quite impossible for an Encyclopedic presentation to sufficiently describe how a Kayak Roll actually happens, without presenting an informative discussion (from which one might gain instruction) of the various methods by which a Kayak Roll can be performed, and further, a description of elements (the FACT that the Kayak Roll relies on choreographic execution) which are integral. An Encyclopedic discussion of the Eskimo Roll that fails to refute that the Eskimo Roll HAS NO REQUIREMENT AT ALL FOR PHYSICAL PROWESS --- would be incomplete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Judd Smith (talk • contribs) 18:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want to refute something, you will need a reliable source. The article was I'm afraid one of the worst written I've run into not counting those written by editors who obviously had another language as their first language. First tell us what sources you would use for the article. Dougweller (talk) 19:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Purpose?

What everybody seems to be missing here, is that some crucial information needs to be added for readers who have no idea whatsoever about the topic. It's nice to know what a kayak roll is and how it's done, and whether or not you have to be fit to do it. What's missing, however, is some history and, most importantly, its purpose. Thanks!VetLH (talk) 06:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kayaking#Kayak roll article - your comments would be greatly appreciated. Alansplodge (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with C-to-C roll

This article is a 'parent' of the C-to-C roll yet it is much shorter. Jamesmcmahon0 (talk) 16:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree - Kill the C-to-C page. The lead makes some unreferenced claims, the "Mechanics" section is just a mini-manual, one reference is rather suspect, and (as far as I can see) most (all?) of the links to it are due to the "Canoeing and kayaking" navigation template. Either that or create pages for all the other rolls... :) --GhostInTheMachine (talk) 17:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Alansplodge (talk) 18:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree. 22:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mduvekot (talk • contribs)

Done --GhostInTheMachine (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

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