Talk:Karin Dreijer

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Untitled[edit]

Isn't she known more as Dreijer than Andersson? This is like calling Madonna mrs. Richie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.222.10 (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno if either is more common than the other, but the way the article is written now it implies that "Dreijer" is merely a of middle name. That's obviously not the case.
Peter Isotalo 21:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. She was famous in Sweden before she took her husband's surname Andersson. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On the facebook page for her new album she is just calling herself Karin Dreijer now. [1]
Yeah, this page should be moved to Karin Dreijer. — SpaceSong (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.facebook.com/FeverRay/posts/10156894101313902


Requested move 5 November 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 05:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Karin Dreijer Andersson → Karin Dreijer – She removed the 'Andersson' from her name and goes only by Karin Dreijer now. 77.125.99.80 (talk) 11:43, 5 November 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 14:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What isn't this article called "Fever Ray" in line with other musicians who are known by their stage name like St. Vincent (musician), Marina and the Diamonds, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dashiellx (talk • contribs)
  • Relisting comment: It would be good to check what the recent sources say (and links to sources, Google searches etc are good for evidence). Andrewa (talk) 14:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:ABOUTSELF policy and WP:COMMONNAME: short name in news and books, versus long name in news, books. The shorter name is overwhelmingly more common, though book sources (due to slower publication schedule) have naturally been slower to catch up to the change.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  20:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Regardless of "Karin Dreijer" being far more common, she removed the Andersson from her name so this isn't really something that's up to debate. New interview with The Guardian confirms it ("Fans have also picked up on the fact she has dropped the Andersson from her surname. "Yes, I got divorced. I was living in a marriage with a man for a long time and for the last five years I haven't," she says.") — SpaceSong (talk) 11:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Pronoun reversion?[edit]

Why's the page reverted back to using she pronouns after initially using xe pronouns when Karin came out as using them last month? 2407:7000:8224:3100:F972:B6D0:FAAA:8C69 (talk) 01:26, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. --38.140.146.66 (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed the pronouns to the correct xe pronouns that Karin xerself uses. Please keep an eye out for people who edit the page to misgender xer. --Sandplague (talk) 15:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Out of interest, is there a template available for the top of the page to help combat this? Looking through the edit history I see the edits of the 'xe' pronouns to the 'she' pronouns have been labelled with descriptions like 'fixed pronouns', which to me suggests maybe there's a misunderstanding and some editors think that the xe pronouns are Swedish pronouns as opposed to gender neutral ones (or another misunderstanding along those lines). I can't help but think that people aren't trying to misgender Karin Dreijer so much as not having a basic understanding of what the xe pronouns are and something clear at the top of the page to educate on the issue would be more beneficial than trying to catch other editors in the act. Ultimately Wikipedia is a tool for educating, after all. 86.2.234.7 (talk) 22:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I added a pronoun notice at the top of the page using Template:Pronoun notice. Sandplague (talk) 17:11, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's brilliant. Hopefully this will eradicate the issue, and if not then at least we will be able to identify who the deliberately disingenous vandals are. 86.2.234.7 (talk) 18:15, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the template to Template:Editnotices/Page/Karin Dreijer, which is where it is supposed to be placed per Template:Pronoun notice. It now appears when one is editing the article rather than when merely browsing. Ss112 01:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
People are still regularly changing the pronouns to misgender xer. Does anyone have any suggestions to prevent this?Sandplague (talk) 02:07, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I personally believe the whole "xhe-xer" thing can get confusing to read (blame me being born before any of this stuff took off), this does seem to be persistent vandalism. I might put in a page protection request if it gets especially egregious. Kirbanzo (userpage - talk - contribs) 03:22, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The more people are exposed to seeing different pronouns, the more natural it will become to read, just like learning any new words in any language. Plus, it is more important to use the correct pronouns for someone than misgendering someone “to make it less confusing to read.” I do appreciate the help though. It may be worth putting in a page protection request. Sandplague (talk) 05:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
calling this “misgendering” is outlandish. what gender would the pronoun “xe” represent? if some celebrity decides they’re now going by star/starself pronouns, are we just going to copy that into their article as to not “misgender” them, even though no other sources beyond buzzfeed or something are taking it seriously? —mountainhead / ? 16:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you have done, you have ruined the entire article. It is a grammatical nightmare. The word "they" refers to more than one person, so the article looks like it is talking about a band or musical group when it should be talking about an individual person. It should say "he" or "she" not "they". There are only 2 options. We do not need to be exposed to any more of this alternative pronoun nonsense, which is based in delusional thinking & will never become natural to read. It is also dangerous & may inspire a new brand of illiteracy. Please fix it. 199.67.131.149 (talk) 23:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
where is the consensus for using these neopronouns? most major sources still refer to her as she. a mention of her use of the pronoun would suffice to me. —mountainhead / ? 16:42, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fever Ray social media accounts all list Karin as using "xe" pronouns:
* https://twitter.com/feverray/status/963834986100031488
* https://www.facebook.com/FeverRay/posts/10157260352408902
* https://www.instagram.com/p/BfL612dHARq/
Just because there are writers using the wrong pronouns for Dreijer in their articles doesn't mean the wrong pronouns should be used here. Dreijer's own statement of use of xe pronouns should be the deciding factor on which pronouns to use. Sandplague (talk) 00:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia user Bizarre Bizarre also mentioned in a revision that Wikipedia respects a person’s self-declared pronouns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity Sandplague (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, on the Wikipedia page about Karin Dreijer, I edited the pronoun xe into she. You edited it back and said that gender is a social construct and that languages are constantly evolving. Here is my rebuttal:

1.Gender is not a social construct: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/10/31/science_shows_sex_is_binary_not_a_spectrum_138506.html 2. Yes the language is evolving, but not to that extent. Words have to be in a dictionary to be considered formal. You wouldn't add slang to a Wikipedia article either would you? 3. You have broken the 3 Reverse Rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.4.51 (talk) 22:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Words have to be in a dictionary to be considered formal." I have so many questions: Considered formal by whom? Which dictionary? Any dictionary, even a self-published one? If not, what constitutes a "real" dictionary for formality purposes? And how does this square with the fact that many, if not most, contemporary dictionaries -- including Merriam-Webster -- are intended to be descriptive rather than prescriptive? Cholling (talk) 15:21, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole idea that made up pronouns become "real" by sheer force of sociopolitical will is and always has been ridiculous. 216.248.123.183 (talk) 07:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of views about gender, what's profoundly misled here is that because the artist wishes to be addressed in a certain way, that it should behoove us to do so when writing about her too. The artist does not *own* the English language. The people who use it (English) do. And it's certainly very far from common usage to use these pronouns, definitely not a settled matter, for decades to come. It is /not/ a lack of respect for the artist to keep using the English language in the common usage. The fact that this artist wants this is notable and should be mentioned on the page, however. We should write the English version of Wikipedia in English, and that does not include these experiments at this time, at least certainly not before they've become common usage across a vast swath of the writing population. Yes, language evolves, but it doesn't evolve that fast, and the motivation behind these changes seem political rather than organic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.91.108 (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for they/them pronouns[edit]

I would like to propose that they/them are the correct pronouns for this page. The argument is two-fold:

  • This NPR article notes "This piece has been updated to reflect Karin Dreijer's gender pronouns. Dreijer previously used "she" and "her" pronouns; Dreijer's pronouns are now 'they' and 'them.'" This update is only a few weeks old. Further, a quote from a slightly older interview: “Today, I feel like ‘she’ or ‘they’ is perfect for me. It’s different from day to day, actually. I’m fine with ‘they’ and ‘she’. I think it’s important to ask everybody about their pronouns because a lot of people take stuff for granted.”
  • A number of people above have pointed to social media posts identifying "Karin Dreijer" as using the pronoun "xe". This should be interpreted in the context of a series of posts introducing bandmembers similarly: "Name: Diva Cruz; Pronoun: Shero"; "Name: Maryam Nikandish; Pronoun: u, ãn, ishun". I think these posts are meant to be playful introductions to stage personas rather than containing true facts about the real people behind the personas. Or rather, I think one could identify "xe" as the pronoun for the fictional stage character "Karin Dreijer" rather than the actual real-life Karin Dreijer, who appears to have different preferences (see the first point).

Mpaldridge (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, Mpaldridge--the NPR article with the Nov. 2019 edit is now the most recent evidence of Dreijer's pronouns. Using they/them pronouns for the article would be best practice, as per MOS:GENDERID. Sandplague (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note to add that the announcement of the new album on Fever Ray's website uses they/them for both "Fever Ray" and for Karin Dreijer. That should settle this, I think. Mpaldridge (talk) 17:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, but it doesn't. Grammatically, the "they" pronoun refers either to a group of more than one individual, or to a generic individual whose gender is indeterminate. That's it, that's all. Please note that Karin Dreijer is not a generic individual.
Readers shouldn't need to care about what the artist's preference is. She's a woman, by biological standards, and that should be enough to refer to her.
Wikipedia bending to this whimsical and localised use of gender is utterly disappointing, and brings the quality of its content to the level of sensationalist newsletters.
Please revert the article to proper English grammar. Bruno Unna (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bruno Unna: No, As it clearly states in MOS:SINGULARTHEY:

Singular they pronouns are appropriate to use in reference to a person who goes by them.

Also, to quote the article Singular they:

In the early 21st century, use of singular they with known individuals emerged for people who do not identify as male or female, as in, for example, "This is my friend, Jay. I met them at work." They in this context was named Word of the Year for 2015 by the American Dialect Society, and for 2019 by Merriam-Webster. In 2020, the American Dialect Society also selected it as Word of the Decade for the 2010s.

Singular they in this context is widely accepted, including by Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Your gender-essentialist prescriptivism is not welcome here. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 19:05, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can see it, and I find it pitiful. I hoped (in vain, it seems) that the Wikipedia was not ruled by the American-centric, post-modernist, all-encompassing double-moral criteria that you so appropriately represent and police.
Perhaps it is the very Manual of Style what requires a revision? I hope I'm not blaspheming now! Bruno Unna (talk) 09:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a Brit, not American — Shakespeare used singular they.
The world is not set in aspic and your argument, as well as being offensive to trans and nonbinary people, is not going to get anywhere; the likelihood of the MoS going backwards to some notional prescriptive version of English that never really existed is very slim.
I'm sure we both have better things to do, even if only in the context of Wikipedia. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 11:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: To quote

If a person exclusively goes by neopronouns such as ze/hir, then the singular they should generally be used instead of neopronouns when referring to that individual, though their requested pronouns should usually be mentioned in their biography (such as in prose or in a footnote). Singular they pronouns are appropriate to use in reference to a person who goes by them.

Whether Dreijer uses xe or they that means we should use they/them in WikiVoice. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 19:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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