Talk:Justin Duerr

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Notability[edit]

Notability tags have repeatedly been added to this article and then removed without discussion. To give some visibility to this issue, I've raised it on the notability noticeboard. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked through the sources, it seems to me that almost none meet the strict reliability requirements summarized at WP:42 and detailed at WP:RS. There is one NPR reference. NPR is a good, reliable source. But neither the NPR article cited nor the transcript of the story's attached audio seem to me to include "significant coverage". I looked for at least one lengthy paragraph about Mr. Duerr himself, preferably more. I didn't find it: I merely found significant coverage of a documentary film which Mr. Duerr was making. And so I have restored the {{notability}} tag yet again. Can anyone find multiple sources which meet all of the requirements summarized at WP:42? If so, please reply below. Cheers, —Unforgettableid (talk) 00:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a pretty cut and dry source: [1]. Last Call with Carson Daly is a fairly significant media outlet. Also, Duerr has been discussed in articles in the New York Times ([2]), Variety ([3]), etc. The explosion surrounding Resurrect Dead (another source that passes WP:42) has, for my money, ensured Duerr's inclusion in Wikipedia. To argue that his article is not worthy of inclusion, you need to show why the coverage in these ~6 sources does not pass WP:GNG. Until you do that, it seems to me like the subject passes GNG, but I will leave it to you to decide and potentially remove the hat.
Also, it's a minor point, but please note that Duerr was not "making" a documentary, but rather the subject of one.
CCS81 (talk) 04:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, one more thought on the subject before bed. I am realizing that the Variety and NYT sources are less about Duerr and more about the movie. The Carson Daly and NPR articles strike me as stronger arguments for my case, so maybe we should focus on them. Some other low-level sources that I'd like to integrate into the article: Philadelphia Weekly article on his art, Philadelphia Weekly article on his band, etc. CCS81 (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake; upon further research, I see you are right about the fact that he was actually the subject of the documentary. I see you have greatly improved the article; clearly you would like it to be kept. I have not viewed the Last Call clip yet. If it turns out to be an acceptable source, then that will be one of the two required sources. See the list below, and feel free to edit it. If I have made any mistakes, please correct me. In sum, do two sources from WP:RSes exist? If not, then maybe we should userfy this article to someone's userspace, or move it to an alternative outlet such as another wiki, until a second source can be found.
Sources discussed so far:
  • Includes only a couple of sentences of information about Duerr himself. Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Includes only one sentence of information about Duerr himself. Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Includes a mere half-sentence of information about Duerr himself. Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suspect that this constitutes significant coverage of Duerr himself. But does the source meet WP:RS? Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have not viewed this. Could you (or someone) please tell us how much coverage about Duerr himself is included? Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Kind regards, —Unforgettableid (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work on this. Briefly, I'll say that I don't necessarily want or not want the article to stay, but think that the subject is notable. The first WP:RS is the documentary Resurrect Dead: The Mystery of the Toynbee Tiles, which is not on your above list, but features extensive information about Duerr and was made by a third-party filmmaker, not Duerr himself, as you note above. As for the second source, I don't see why the Philadelphia Weekly articles wouldn't pass as RS, but maybe some other editors should weigh in. Carson Daly and NPR are both examples of significant coverage, but don't give much flesh to his biography, you're right.
If the article stays, it will need more work, mostly in the department of sourcing claims with RSes. Many of the sources in there now are opaque, or fail RS, etc. Again, hopefully we can get some further thoughts on this subject from other editors. Best, CCS81 (talk) 18:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(Mostly, I just want to resolve the notability issue that has been lingering since 2007. If the subject isn't worthy of inclusion, then let's delete the article. If it is, let's see if we can get rid of those refimprove tags.)
CCS81 (talk) 19:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SimonP. I see you recently deleted the {{notability}} tag with the edit summary "has enough refs". As you can see above, the question is not the number of refs: it's a question of whether or not those refs which point to reliable sources include significant coverage of Mr. Duerr. I wonder, if you please: Do there exist two refs, which you have viewed, and which include significant coverage? If so, which refs? I have sent you a {{talkback}} template to point you here. Kind regards, —Unforgettableid (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to clear some of the most ancient clean-up tags, and came across this article. From my quick inspection the notability was borderline, but enough of the refs are to real publications. I didn't check the talk page to see that this was still an ongoing discussion. Feel free to put the tag back if you disagree. - SimonP (talk) 23:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added several more references. The subject seems to be of borderline notability, but I think more than enough of the references meet WP:RS and constitute significant coverage. There are now numerous references which primarily cover Duerr and his artwork or music from Philadelphia Weekly [1]and Philadelphia City Paper, which are alternative weekly print newspapers in Philadelphia. I've also added a reference to a video from WHYY-TV [2]which contains a significantly in-depth interview with Duerr about his art. The video segues from a section about the film Resurrect Dead, and the section primarily focusing on Duerr begins at the 2:43 mark. Also please remember that the film Resurrect Dead also passes WP:42, and Duerr was partially the topic of that film. Additionally, I added an article from knightarts.org,[3] which I believe also meets the criteria for WP:RSRoomsmoody1924 (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Quickly wanted to add that I'd like to remove the tags if this article isn't deleted, but I don't want to do so without some discussion, since it seems to have been a contentious issue. (Roomsmoody1924 (talk) 19:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC))[reply]


Regarding my above comment..... does anyone object to my removing the tags? My reasoning is that, for the "may be an autobiography" tag, this indicates a suspicion on the part of the person who added the tag, I assume since the article had been edited, at various points, by IP users. However, it has also been extensively re-written and re-worded, and many citations have been added, so regardless of the history of the article, I think at this point it could stand without this tag. As for the second tag, there are many citations that can pass WP:RS. Significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject can be found in the several citations I've added. Among these, which are viewable online:

http://archives.citypaper.net/articles/2006-03-02/music3.shtml?print=1
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/arts-and-culture/art/146854745.html
http://archives.citypaper.net/print-article.php?aid=18555
http://video.whyy.org/video/2203913528

Add to this the fact that he is partially the topic of a documentary film (constituting another good source that passes WP:RS), I think there is enough here to justify removing the significant-coverage and verifiability tag. There are also many more sources, but these are a few from online archives of print publications, which, while local to Philadelphia, are reputable and have high circulation. The PBS video contains a section devoted to his art, although it begins with a piece about the documentary.

Roomsmoody1924 (talk) 07:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/arts-and-culture/art/146854745.html
  2. ^ http://video.whyy.org/video/2203913528/
  3. ^ http://www.knightarts.org/community/philadelphia/justin-duerr-traction-company

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