Talk:Juozas Lukša

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Untitled[edit]

Is this the same guy from Lietukis Garage pogrom in 1941? I suspect the article is not quite honest as it skips the awful murders made by Luksa on the innocent people in summer 1941. That fact should be presented in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.205.14.3 (talk) 12:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Critics[edit]

http://defendinghistory.com/tag/juozas-luksa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx234 (talk • contribs) 12:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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"Alleged" facts bout Juozas Lukša[edit]

@VarlamTikhonovich: Yet again some vandals pushing "alleged" facts about Juozas Lukša. I suggest to discuss all "alleged" facts here. -- Ke an (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ke an:

The article:

https://www.jta.org/2020/06/29/global/in-lithuania-lawmakers-want-to-dedicate-2021-to-honoring-alleged-perpetrator-of-a-holocaust-pogrom

that you deleted notes that significant controversy exists as to the role Juozas Lukša played in the Holocaust ---

The book (which you deleted a reference to) 

The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania (Gefen Publishing House 2006, p. 34)

discusses the role of Juozas Lukša and his involvement in Holocaust atrocities.

---

The Lithuanian-based author Dovid Katz in an article:

http://defendinghistory.com/will-lithuanias-parliament-really-name-2021-for-alleged-holocaust-collaborator-juozas-luksa/102980

points to the controversy associated with Juozas Lukša.

For this Wikipedia page to efface all references to the controversy that exists regarding the role of Juozas Lukša and to describe all those who reference such issues as you did to me as being “Russian propagandists” is unreasonable and is suggestive of an underlying motive.

@VarlamTikhonovich: Please make difference between "discussion", "alleged" and facts.

"discusses". I can discuss that Adolf H. still lives in Argentina and making vine in the same manner. Will it be sufficient for Wikipedia? Can you quote the book?

  • 3. Dovid Katz is an extremely unreliable author. He is well known for distributing lies and phantasies almost about every historical fact in Lithuania.

Maybe he hates everything related to Lithuania, but that doesn't make him a source of eternal truth. Can you read his text and find some proofs on participation of Juozas Lukša in Kaunas' pogrom? There are only speculations about the same - "maybe", "that if", "alleged".

This blonde man claimed by KGB, Russian propaganda and some Jewish organisations as Juozas Lukša. Not sure why. Because there is no even little similarity and Juozas Lukšas wasn't blonde. Even more so - the biography of Juozas Lukša is very well researched and is known that during the days of Lietūkis pogrom he wasn't in Kaunas even. https://kauno.diena.lt/naujienos/lietuva/salies-pulsas/siaubo-pasaka-apie-lietuviu-partizana-502823 https://m.diena.lt/naujienos/lietuva/salies-pulsas/partizanu-vadas-tebemurkdomas-smeizte-959555 --Ke an (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ke an:

---

The article:

https://www.jta.org/2020/06/29/global/in-lithuania-lawmakers-want-to-dedicate-2021-to-honoring-alleged-perpetrator-of-a-holocaust-pogrom

illustrates that there is indeed a controversy.

Indeed a senior Lithuanian government official has responded to the controversy, thereby acknowledging that the controversy exists.

--- "The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania"

I referenced, and I offered you a link with the text. See p. 34 of the book.

---

You say of Professor Dovid Katz:

"Dovid Katz is an extremely unreliable author. He is well known for distributing lies and phantasies almost about every historical fact in Lithuania."

Yet his CV

http://www.dovidkatz.net/dovid/dovid_cv.htm

shows that he has taught at a variety of academic institutions.

Your assertion that someone whose views you dislike is a liar, etc is not backed by corroboration.

His employment suggests that he is not a fantasist.

--- I recommend that we seek other Wikipedia views in a dispute resolution setting.

---

@VarlamTikhonovich: Would you consider some conspiracy theories a "controversy"? Regarding the "controversy" - as I mentioned earlier it is based on Melamed's belief that it is Juozas Lukša in the photo. No reliable sources confirmed it. Even face analysis experts. Lithuanian historian Arvydas Anušauskas made a thorough research of Lietūkis events and proved that Juozas Lukša participation in them physically was not possible.

"After Juozas Lukša was release from the Soviet jail he headed home" - the source in Lithuanian, but Google translation would do some reasonable job. https://m.diena.lt/naujienos/lietuva/salies-pulsas/siaubo-pasaka-apie-lietuviu-partizana-zydu-zudika-450704

As regarding Dovid Katz, I do not believe in appeal to authority. Do you see arguments and facts in his text on Juozas Lukša? I see only speculations based on speculations. --Ke an (talk) 17:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]


About the Third Opinion request: The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. Please sign your talk page posts with four tildes. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a piece of advice: It appears that much of the controversy here is over the reliability of sources. We have a noticeboard to help resolve those issues: Reliable Sources Noticeboard. You should give it a try. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Very unclear to me what the controversy here? Seems obvious that these reported allegations published in a reliable source should be included here. Unless someone is alleging that the JTA is not a reliable source. Is that anyone's position? | MK17b | (talk) 05:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was also covered in the Jerusalem Post here -> https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/speakers-at-anti-semitism-confab-accused-of-holocaust-distortion-419507 | MK17b | (talk) 05:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mk17b: I agree. I am perplexed as to what should be my next step. The apparent 'guardian' of the article Ke_An takes the position that any reference to the role of Juozas Luksa is a lie and conspiracy by malevolent secret forces, and has accused me of being such. VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 12:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Mk17b: As another example of a document that I believe merits a reference: http://www.davidpublisher.com/Public/uploads/Contribute/57970fdb9ffef.pdf

Journal of US-China Public Administration; March 2016, Vol. 13, No. 3, 203-220 "The Tragedy of Holocaust and Possibilities for Reconciliation in the Society of Lithuania" Robertas Pukenis Vytautas Magnus University, Kaunas, Lithuania;doi: 10.17265/1548-6591/2016.03.008

that references on page 211 the fact that the Israeli government has documents that reference Juozas Luksa as being involved in the Holocaust, while the Lithuanian government denies such involvement.

The topic of any ethnic Lithuanian anti-Soviet partisans (especially prominent partisan leaders such as Luksa) also being involved in pro-Nazi activities during World War II is very political in Lithuania, with Lithuanians nationalists strenuously denying any such pro-Nazi involvement.

As a sign that there is indeed a controversy, the Ambassador of Lithuania Lina Antanaviciene to Israel wrote a letter in the last few days to the Israeli press defending Juozas Luksa.

See: https://www.haaretz.com/1.5173211


VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 14:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's obviously no such thing as a guardian when it comes to wiki articles. Step forward should be to include any information that has been reported in reliable sources. | MK17b | (talk) 15:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mk17b: Thank you.

I propose to put the following text in:

Controversy exists regarding the role of Juozas Lukša during the Nazi occupation of Lithuania.

Some sources state that he was involved in Holocaust atrocities against Jews, such as this account.


“In his lecture, ilya Ehrenburg spoke of Nazism, of its cruel role in the Second World War, and called on all present to assist the Red Army to defeat Hitler. He asked that questions should be as short as possible. One young student asked for an explanation of the difference between the Stalinist and Hitlerite occupation of Lithuania. At this moment Jonas Barshketis recognized this student. He had seen him in the Lietukis garage on June 25, 1941, where he had participated in the kilings of Jews, having been freed a mere two days prior to this from the Yellow Prison” as an LAF activist. Jonas told this to the Russian officer from SMERSH whom he knew. Later it transpired that this was Juozas Luksha, now well known in Lithuania as a ‘’freedom fighter.’’[1]

A similar account is provided:

“The decisive moment of the “show” approached. All the victims had to take off their shows and were led barefooted to a light-haired, blue-eyed man standing nearby (Juozas Lukas). He held a big iron crow-bar in his hands. One by one, the victins had to approach the man who, smiling brought his iron bar down on the victim’s head who fell bleeding”


“After the massacre, the young man put aside the crow-bar, took up an accordeon, stood on the bodies of the murdered people, and from his vantage point on a pile of corpses began to play the Lithuanian national anthem joined by the cheerful crowd. [2]

However, other sources within Lithuania strongly dispute all such assertions, as has the Lithuanian government.



--- VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 17:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania. Aleks Faitelson. Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 2006 p.33-34
  2. ^ Lithuania: Crime and Punishment, Joseph Melamed, ed. Tel Aviv January 1999

Fourth opinion[edit]

I'll venture in anyway. I'll just outline the issue to check my understanding.

There are sources that say that Juozas Lukša was a leader in the Lietūkis Garage massacre of Jews in Kaunas, his home town, in 1941. (This was one of many mass murders of Jews committed by Lithuanians after the Nazi takeover of the Baltic states in 1941.)

From the JTA: "One survivor, Aleks Faitelson, said in a 2006 book that multiple witnesses saw Luksa-Daumantas participating in the murders. (This appears to be a reference to The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania. Aleks Faitelson. Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 2006. And Joseph Melamed, a former chairman of the Association of Lithuanian Jews in Israel, wrote in a 1999 book that his research had led him to identify Luksa-Daumantas in a photograph of the scene of the massacre. Melamed died in 2017." Dovid Katz's report also refers back to Feitelson and Melamed. These assertions should be included in the article, referenced to Feitelson and Melamed, with page numbers and full bibliographic details. Brief quotations would also help the references. Tertiary references, such as the JTA article and Dovid Katz, can be included if there is consensus to do so but are probably best omitted.

There are also sources which assert - in Lithuanian, of which I understand not a word, but Google Translate produces something readable - that Juozas Lukša was nowhere near Kaunas at the time of the massacre ("In a letter to the head of the association, Joseph A. Melamed, I wrote that my brother could not in any way take part in the massacre of Jews in the garage of Lietūkis on June 27, 1941. Because Juozas, arrested for anti-Soviet activities and imprisoned in the spring of 1941, I was greeted in the city center after I was released from this prison on June 23 of the same year, " A. Lukša recalled." After a few hours of rest, we went for a walk to our native village, Juodbūdis village, Veiveriai district, Marijampolė county. Our mother met us at the well. We spent about a month here in the homestead before Juozas was invited to Vytautas Magnus University, where he studied architecture." And that he was a dark-haired man, so he cannot be the same as the blond described as him by Melamed in the relevant picture. These sources look like blogs and are probably not suitable for use in Wikipedia. (I'm not even going to try to comment on hair color as represented in old black-and-white photographs. Or on the facial appearance of the photographs. That would be original research, forbidden on Wikipedia.) If reliable sources for his sister's assertion can be produced, and the opinion of a photographic expert for the pictures, then they could and should be included in the article.

Juozas Lukša may have been a wonderful person in many ways. That is not relevant to the question above. Only his location on, and actions of, 27 June 1941 are relevant.

I hope this helps. Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Richard Keatinge: That is helpful.

I am perplexed as to what should be my next step.

I agree with your point: "These assertions should be included in the article, referenced to Feitelson and Melamed, with page numbers and full bibliographic details."

The user Ke_An will efface them as being part of a Russian conspiracy.

Thoughts as to next reasonable steps would be welcome.

VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 14:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 14:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The issue here is WP:DUE. The accusations are very serious, yet the "proof" is extremely flimsy -- based on some grainy photos that were "identified" in 1999 -- 58 years after the events. (btw, the same guy was "identified" as Joachim Hamann, but that is UNDUE and FRINGE to include in his article). Faitelson's assertions are even less reliable -- he cites no sources whatsoever and his book does not stand up to academic standards. No other evidence surfaced during previous 58 years despite Soviet NKVD and KGB investigations into him. The accusations are vigorously denied by Lithuania. It does not seem that the accusations were in the fringes of history and have not been picked up by other sources outside the people immediately involved in the dispute until JTA published an article few days ago. So really, the issue is WP:DUE. Yes, the controversy exists, but does it merit inclusion on Wikipedia? It's based on some very questionable claims by involved activists and repeated in some blogs and newspaper articles -- no outside academic has supported the theory. If this was a WP:BLP, the answer would be obviously that this does not merit inclusion. Renata (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Renata, your point is arguable. In a BLP, I guess you're right, this would not merit inclusion. However, I do suspect that the main audience for an encyclopedic article on this dead person will be readers who have heard about the accusations. In such an article, I would hope to find the accusations set out, in a way that allows me to see what strength they may have, with references. And also the rebuttals that you describe, with references. Without that, I as a reader new to the subject might assume that there is no smoke without fire. I suggest that we should set out the evidence, such as it is. We do need RS to do this. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's another issue -- there is no good solid RS about this controversy other than activists shouting at each other. Neither Melamed nor Feitelson are RS in this case; they are not historians, they are involved, and their publications are primary sources for this controversy. If this is included, it should get no more than a sentence or two as anything more would be way UNDUE but there is no good way to summarize the arguments in a sentence or two. I would actually propose to "wait and see" -- Wikipedia is in no hurry and is not NEWS. If this controversy blows up and becomes more public (which is what I think will happen), then add a summary based on the better RS sources that should become available. Renata (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Keatinge: Thank you.

I propose to put the following text in, BUT i would welcome your thoughts.:

---

Controversy exists regarding the role of Juozas Lukša during the Nazi occupation of Lithuania.

Some sources state that he was involved in Holocaust atrocities against Jews, such as this account.


“In his lecture, ilya Ehrenburg spoke of Nazism, of its cruel role in the Second World War, and called on all present to assist the Red Army to defeat Hitler. He asked that questions should be as short as possible. One young student asked for an explanation of the difference between the Stalinist and Hitlerite occupation of Lithuania. At this moment Jonas Barshketis recognized this student. He had seen him in the Lietukis garage on June 25, 1941, where he had participated in the kilings of Jews, having been freed a mere two days prior to this from the Yellow Prison” as an LAF activist. Jonas told this to the Russian officer from SMERSH whom he knew. Later it transpired that this was Juozas Luksha, now well known in Lithuania as a ‘’freedom fighter.’’[1]

A similar account is provided:

“The decisive moment of the “show” approached. All the victims had to take off their shows and were led barefooted to a light-haired, blue-eyed man standing nearby (Juozas Lukas). He held a big iron crow-bar in his hands. One by one, the victins had to approach the man who, smiling brought his iron bar down on the victim’s head who fell bleeding”


“After the massacre, the young man put aside the crow-bar, took up an accordeon, stood on the bodies of the murdered people, and from his vantage point on a pile of corpses began to play the Lithuanian national anthem joined by the cheerful crowd. [2]

However, other sources within Lithuania strongly dispute all such assertions, as has the Lithuanian government.



--- VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 17:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Varlam Tikhonovich, thanks for this draft. It will indeed be appropriate to gain consensus here before inserting any text on the subject. On your suggested text, the style is far too dramatic for an encyclopedia, and it's premature. I suggest that we should collect our reliable sources first, so that we can prepare a text that will describe the basis for the accusations, and for the rebuttals (including a reliable description of Juozas Lukša's hair color), and only then insert anything into the article.
I say "we" should collect. Actually I mean people who are familiar with the Lithuanian and possibly other languages. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:46, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Keatinge: Thank you.

You clearly are more expert than I on how to craft an article for Wikipedia.

I will be guided by your views.

My thought has been that a controversy exists, and that the Wikipedia article ignores that controversy.

VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 17:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your feelings. Per Renata's wise words above, and per WP:NOTNEWS, I suggest that we should await a critical mass of reliable sources. Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


This was covered by the Jerusalem Post five years ago with a quote from a rep of the Simon Wiesenthal Center

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/speakers-at-anti-semitism-confab-accused-of-holocaust-distortion-419507 | MK17b | (talk) 01:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that Lithuania has declared 2021 to be a year dedicated to Juozas Luksa.

http://alkas.lt/2020/07/02/seimas-2021-uosius-paskelbe-juozo-luksos-daumanto-metais/

VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 13:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ajc-lithuanian-jewish-community-urge-seimas-not-to-honor-lithuanian-wartime-activist-301087845.html VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 07:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC). 07:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://tv.lrytas.lt/zinios/lietuvos-diena/2020/07/07/news/zydu-bendruomenes-pirmininke-reikalauja-kad-kitais-metais-j-luksa-daumantas-nebutu-pagerbiamas-15532363// VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC) 15:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/lithuania-picks-the-wrong-man-to-honour-1.501512

VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC) 20:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have we reached critical mass? Hard to believe Wikipedia is best served by ignoring this known and reported controversy. | MK17b | (talk) 04:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added a short concise section mentioning the alleged involvement with the Kanaus pogrom and the denial. | MK17b | (talk) 01:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/alleged-holocaust-distorter-named-top-adviser-to-lithuania-genocide-museum

VarlamTikhonovich (talk). VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania. Aleks Faitelson. Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 2006 p.33-34
  2. ^ Lithuania: Crime and Punishment, Joseph Melamed, ed. Tel Aviv January 1999

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/alleged-holocaust-distorter-named-top-adviser-to-lithuania-genocide-museum VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 12:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.jmberlin.de/sites/default/files/antisemitism-in-europe-today_15-malinauskaite.pdf VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 12:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.jta.org/2021/01/27/global/in-holocaust-memorial-day-speech-lithuanian-lawmaker-says-jews-and-communists-share-blame VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 20:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1l86mg800 VarlamTikhonovich (talk) VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 10:30, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-694002 VarlamTikhonovich (talk) VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 01:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://forward.com/news/462699/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-lithuania/ “ Nazi collaborator monuments in Lithuania” VarlamTikhonovich (talk) VarlamTikhonovich (talk) 11:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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