Talk:Julius Pokorny

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Pokorny's nationality[edit]

Discussion copied from User talk:Dbachmann.

Do you think it's appropriate to have Julius Pokorny in Category:Czech linguists and have {{Czech-bio-stub}} on his page? (I know you aren't the one who put them there, but you didn't remove them either.) I'm sure he would not have considered himself Czech just by virtue of being born in Prague, any more than my father would have considered himself Burmese just by virtue of being born in Rangoon. I'm rather tempted to changes these to Category:Austrian linguists and {{Austria-bio-stub}}, but I'm not sure to what extent he would have considered himself Austrian (rather than German), either. I assume he had Austrian citizenship until all Austrians became German citizens at the Anschluss, but I have no idea what citizenship he had when he remained in Zürich after the war. What do you think? Angr (talk • contribs) 07:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can only say that his last name is typically Czech (lacking the diacritics though). I've tried consulting some Czech sources but haven't found anything concerning his nationality/citizenship. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He didn't speak Czech, though (at least it wasn't his native language; I have no idea if he had some knowledge of it), and he was a German nationalist who lived in Vienna from the age of 10 and then taught in Berlin, Bern, Zürich, and Munich. He died in Zürich but his ashes were taken to Vienna, which seems to have been his "emotional home"/Heimat. As I say, I don't know for sure what citizenship he held, but he had already been living in the Vienna area for 20 years when the first Czecho-Slovak Republic was declared, so I seriously doubt he ever held a Czech(oslovak) passport. On the entirely plausible and highly likely assumption that his citizenship was Austrian (at least until the Anschluss), I'm going to change the article now. Angr (talk • contribs) 09:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would avoid categorizing him by nationality at all until we have positive information. dab (ᛏ) 10:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have Ó Dochartaigh's biography but have only started reading it. I suspect he won't talk much about Pokorny's citizenship, though. Still, common sense dictates that he was born a citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (specifically the Austrian part), and that since he had been living in or near Vienna for 20 years when the Empire was dissolved, he became a citizen of the Republic of Austria at that point. Avoiding categorizing him by nationality is a nice, neutral idea in theory, but it won't work in practice, because if I just use Category:Linguists and {{Linguist-stub}}, someone is bound to come along soon and want to categorize him back into a country. Seing "born in Prague", they're bound to categorize him as Czech, which I just don't think is accurate. Angr (talk • contribs) 10:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Ó Dochartaigh's biography quotes a letter saying Pokorny "acquired German citizenship through his [1920] appointment [as professor] in Berlin". Angr (talk • contribs) 13:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And after the war, he was granted an Austrian passport in 1947 (making him a dual citizen of Germany and Austria), but when it came up for renewal in 1952, "the Austrian authorities deprived him of citizenship because he had supposedly left the country illegally when he went to Berlin in 1920." I still don't know whether he was a dual citizen or exclusively a German citizen from 1920 until the Anschluss, though. At any rate, considering he was a citizen of either Austria-Hungary or the Republic of Austria from his birth till the age of 65 (albeit with interruptions), I think categorizing him as an Austrian linguist is more appropriate than as a German linguist and certainly more so than as a Czech linguist. Angr (talk • contribs) 20:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I myself have the impression that Pokorny is Czech, and I remember picking up the informatiion from the "Scéla" (http://mujweb.cz/enelen/) site. The relevant content might now be offline though (I found one page archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20120417214116/http://www.volny.cz/enelen/pok1.htm).

Given that there are some significant sources such as this website (cited by severeal .ac sites and papers), and an essay by a Celtic scholar named William Sayers[1], I dont think it is appropriate to censor his designation as "Czech", and there is certainly no problem with categorizing this personage as Category:Czech linguists (renamed Category:Linguists from the Czech Republic).

Now, I do get the sense that sources like Ó Dochartaigh's biography do avoid referring to Pokorny as Czech. I think the neutral solution is to use the hyphenated "Austrian-Czech Celticist" as employed in Bernard Mees (1996), "Linguistics and Nationalism: Henry d'Arbois de Jubainville and Cultural Hegemony", Melbourne Historical Journal 25 [2] and "Austro-Czech Celticist" in a book entitled The Science of the Swastika, p. 177 [3]. --Kiyoweap (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

languages[edit]

I belive is worth to list languages this linguist know or had idea of. Nasz 02:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Departure from Nazi Germany[edit]

Rashers - if Pokorny did not use the Irish (presumably entry) visa in his passport how did he leave Germany and get into Switzerland?

'Escape' would seem the wrong word if he did not use any subterfuge. 86.156.113.180 (talk) 15:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He did use 'subterfuge'. Ó Dochartaigh states on p125 'He hid out for three months until, on 27 July,1943, he crossed the border into into Switzerland near Basle. The professor at the height of his academic achievements in early 1933 had become, in the summer of 1943, a refugee.' and p128 'he was officially interned and sent to Lausanne where he was, however, allowed to live in a guesthouse'. Ó Dochartaigh implies that his possession of a (belatedly issued) Irish visa, Hyde's letter etc. may have helped ensure he was not sent back immediately to Germany by Swiss officials on his subsequent discovery, but no suggestion that it in any way helped him enter Switzerland. RashersTierney (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But Switzerland would surely not let him enter without the Irish visa (presumably he had no exit pass)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.113.180 (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems clear to me that he didn't ask 'Switzerland' but crossed illegally. RashersTierney (talk) 19:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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