Talk:Julfa, Azerbaijan (city)/Archive 1

Hi MarshallBagramyan. Apparently, Raffi refers to the late 1980s, so I refer to the same period. Azeri population was forcefully deported from Armenia, and many of them were killed. There were no decrees or anything of the kind, people were just attacked and forced to leave, and those who refused were killed. I can provide citations, if you need. Regards, Grandmaster 20:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster I don't dispute that fact as there were many beatings, as well as of Armenians in the late 1980s in Azerbaijan such as the Sumgait massacres which forced many Armenians to leave Azerbaijan. Conversely, Azeris left Armenia after other violent acts. However the wording sounds incorrect; "deportations" more commonly refer to the expulsion of peoples by government order. Azerbaijan didn't "deport" the Armenians out of their country and Armenia didn't "deport" the Azeris out. There was a refugee reflux not a government-sanctioned deportation policy. They "fleed" for their lives.--MarshallBagramyan 21:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That’s the word Raffi used to describe fleeing of Armenians from Nakhichevan, so exactly the same word should be applied to the similar process in Armenia. Grandmaster 21:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I want to see the differences between each country's policy. I have read many articles in magazines and newspapers and no one describes each sides' refugeee reflux as a deportation. Raffi may be wrong on this one. --MarshallBagramyan 21:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I actually saw articles describing these events as deportation, but we can find a better term, if you wish. Grandmaster 05:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok I have been researching a bit (and will continue to do so) and I so far have found two articles from two prominent American newspapers, The Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post that describe the Azeris' expelling Armenians from Azerbaijan. I'll post those sources and will search more to see if I can find similar actions in regards to Armenia. --MarshallBagramyan 06:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I can help you. Academician Sakharov is known for his pro-Armenian position, and cannot be accused of being an Azeri propagandist. This is excerpt from his memoirs:[1]

“На другой день я встретился с первым секретарем ЦК Армении Арутюняном. Он не стал обсуждать проект. Разговор шел о беженцах, о том, что якобы некоторые готовы вернуться (я отрицал это), о трудностях устройства их жизни в республике после землетрясения. Арутюнян также говорил об актах бесчинств и убийствах в районах, где проживают азербайджанцы, называл цифру 20 или 22 убитых азербайджанца, не считая 8 человек (целая семья с детьми), которые замерзли на перевале, так как шли без теплой одежды. Все эти эксцессы произошли в конце ноября, когда хлынул поток беженцев из Азербайджана”.

If you need translation, I can help. Also see Contested borders in the Caucasus, Alexey Zverev. Grandmaster 07:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No thank you, I can understand it fairly well. See, my problem isn't the the fact than it is the words used to descibe what happend. The exodus of these Azeris really cannot be termed a 'deportation' and that's where my conflict is stemming from. I would prefer to use an 'involuntary evacuation' or that they were 'forced to flee'. Both sides relenquished their minority population albeit there were no government decrees that listed an ultimatum to the number of days people had until they could leave. Russia did (Soviet era) provide helicopters to transport the civilians but I will not reach a final judgement until I have researched the topic some more. I'll post my findings and my sources within a few weeks. Take care.--MarshallBagramyan 19:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. I actually don’t mind to replace the word deportation for some other term with regard to both ethnicities. Grandmaster 20:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The term deportation could fit, if we are talking about 1918-1919 when the Ottoman army penetrated the region and deported the Armenians from there. Fad (ix) 19:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about Armenians departing Nakhichevan before the 1988 Karabakh movement... it referred to the population drop in Armenians during Soviet times. Whether deportation is the correct word or not is another question, I did want to clarify however what I was referring to. --RaffiKojian 04:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It’s true, the Armenian population in Nakhichevan dropped in Soviet times, but the same happened to Azeri population in Armenia. These processes were related. And mind you, the word deportation is applicable to the situation with Azeris in Armenia, as 100 000 of them were deported to Azerbaijan after the World War II by the decree of Stalin, which is said to be influenced by Mikoyan. Grandmaster 05:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly the question here - who ordered populations to be moved? The central authorities in Moscow, or the local authorities in Yerevan/Baku??? --RaffiKojian 00:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's an excerpt from Armenia's party boss, Aram Sarkisian, in a heated debate with Gorbachev in July 1991 regarding the issue of deporations:

Gorbachev turned around, took me by the arm, and said 'Let's go'....he said '"What are your Armenians up to down there?" I said,"What's that?" "Causing explosions, killing, driving people out, and so forth." I said, "Excuse me, that is information from the Azerbaijani side, and do you have any information from the Armenian side?" He said "What meaning does that have?" I said that in actual fact Armenians were being deported, and small groups of Armenians, more or less organized, were trying to resist. He told me "There can't be any deportations because I did not give any orders." I said, "I beg you, there is Kryuchkov, chairman of the KGB, let's invite him over and let him say in front of me that no deportations are happening." [Gorbachev] understood that something was not right and said "OK, I will sort it out myself."

This conversation was after the Soviet-Azeri agression known as Operation Ring in Nagorno-Karabakh. --MarshallBagramyan 19:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Operation “Ring” was organized by Gorbachev to increase the influence of Communist party in Azerbaijan after the Black January and punish Armenia, who elected anti-communist Ter-Petrosyan as president. Resettlement of Azerbaijanis from Armenia was ordered by Stalin by the request of the authorities of Armenian SSR. Stalin continued policy of tsarist Russia for resettlement of Armenians, and since he was told that Armenia is short of space for the resettled population, he signed the order on resettlement of rural Azeri population to Kura-Araks valley. But most of Azeri villages remain abandoned to this day, because the resettled Armenian people were mostly town-dwellers and not peasants. Grandmaster 18:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Levon Ter-Petrosyan was not elected President of Armenia until October 16, 1991, Operation Ring took place on 30 April of that year and Petrosyan began had been serving as the deputy of Supreme Soviet of Armenia in 1989. Furthermore, Operation Ring involved complicity by Azeri OMON forces and elements of the Russian 4th Army, 23rd Division; further operations would have been carried out had several parliamentary deputies not intervened on Armenia's behalf.

I don't know what relevance Stalin's orders of deportation had to do with Gorbachev's backing of taking military action in the NK.--MarshallBagramyan 02:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I was discussing with Raffi population migrations in Soviet times, that’s why this issue is mentioned. Grandmaster 10:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Shah Abbas' Expulsion of population

Which population? The Armenians? the Azeris? Someone needs to clarify that section. --MarshallBagramyan 01:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this entry is going to be completely rewritten. Grandmaster 05:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I have just done it. Regarding the population - this was almost entirely Armenian so it was Armenians who were affected. However, it is not clear from any of the books I have read whether Shah Abbas's deportation orders were restricted solely to the region's Christian population. Still needed is something on the current status of Julfa - its population, industry, trade, etc.Meowy 19:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This was extensively discussed on Nakhichevan. Shah Abbas deported the whole population of the region, regardless of ethnicity or religion. The town of Julfa (but not the whole region) had at the time predominant Armenian population, so they were affected more. Grandmaster 07:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding 3 October 2006 edit by Khosrow II. The evidence does suggest that the town was destroyed to prevent its inhabitants returning. The fortifications of the town were not destroyed, which implies that the aim of the destruction was not to prevent the actual site falling into the hands of the Ottomans. And what difference would it have made to the Ottomans if they had captured an empty or a destroyed town - neither are viable without a population. Also the deportees built New Julfa for themselves, it was not ready-built and awaiting their arrival! Meowy 17:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Like the article says, a policy of scortched earth was implemented. This means destroying every source of shelter, food, etc... to starve the enemy. The Russians did it to both the Germans and the French. It was not destroyed to prevent the population from returning, it was destroyed so that the Ottomans couldnt use it. Secondly, New Julfa was built witht he help of the government and given semi-autonomy so that the Armenians could live their Christian lives without interference. The aim of Shah Abbas was never to oppress the Armenians, as the article suggests, but just to prevent the Ottomans from having the upper hand.Khosrow II 17:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Really, in the face of such a reply, which sounds more like Iranian Chauvanism than anything else, I feel have no option but to return your edit to its former state. Meowy 01:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Khosrow II, you have repeatedly removed content for what seems to me to be nothing more than Iranian nationalistic reasons. While this has had the good result that I have had to add sources and quotations, it does not excuse the reasons behind your censoring. So, before you repeat your cutting, will YOU provide sources that support your POV assertion that the deportees had new Julfa "built for them", and that old Julfa was not destroyed by fire to stop the deportees from returning. Meowy 00:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

a) The city was not destroyed so that the inhabitants could not return and b) the new city of Julfa was built with the help of the goverment for the Armenians. Infact, the Armenians in New Julfa were given semi autonomy, freedom to practice their beliefs and culture, and they were allowed to have advisers at the court of the Shah. Infact, Armenians played a large role in the city of Isfahan, and they became rich for the most part through trade. Infact, it is sometimes beleieved that it was the Armenian advisers that advised the Shah's of Iran to turn away from Europe (due to differences in Christian beliefs). The Armenians in Iran were very well taken care of, and your POV wants to make it look as if it was blantant oppression for no reason.Khosrow II 00:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You have not cited any source to back up your assertion that the town was not destroyed to stop its inhabitants returnng. Your opinion is contrary to the later history of the site. For example, the very fact that the town was never re-established is proof that what was important there were its inhabitants (and their connections with international trade partners), and NOT its location. This is also indicated by the fact that the trade and retail parts of the town were entirely destroyed but its fortifications and surrounding churches were left intact. Also, your comments about the deportees later being "very well cared for" are irrelevant. Whatever the later history, it is a fact that it was the deportees who had to establish, lay out, construct, and pay for, their new homes. Meowy 21:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You have not brought up your sources either, but I will soon enough.Khosrow II 21:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added a source into the article. Please let me know what you think. —Khoikhoi 22:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats the exact source I was going to put in later. Thanks.Khosrow II 22:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you really happy with a mouthful like "was built by Persian masons together with Armenian craftsmen"? Concise, relevant facts are what are needed. Meowy 22:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to prove something, simply cite reliable sources. Once you do, we can include the info. in the article. —Khoikhoi 22:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Now its time for Meowy to cite his sources.Khosrow II 22:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Cite sources for what? I have already cited enough sources. If every sentence on every page has to have its source cited then not only will everything double in size, things will be completely unreadable. Articles should be concise and have only relevant facts (trivialities like mentioning who did or did not build new Julfa are unemportant here, and would belong on a page about new Julfa). Just mentioning that New Julfa was built (or, alternatively, was founded) by the deportees was sufficient. But that was not good enough for Khosrow, who (feeling his Persian pride was being pricked, I guess) saw a problem when in fact there was none. Meowy 23:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You need to cite a source for: a) the city was burned to prevent its inhabitants from returning.

Also, I dont really care about what you think of Persians or what you Armenians think about Persians or what the world cares about Persians. I'm Iranian, simple as that you can say what you want, it wont phase me a bit. What I have a problem with is that the whole section was POV before I got to it. It still needs work but its a lot better than before.Khosrow II 23:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

First - what is it you are contesting? That the city was burned, or that it was burned to prevent the population returning. The first is historical fact, attested to by both the contemporary eyewitnesses and 20th-century excavations. The second, as I have explained earlier, is an obvious fact that does not need a citation. Put the other material about the status of new Julfa within the Persian empire on the new Julfa page - that is where it belongs, not here. And stop the "you Armenians" racism. You have not a clue as to my ethnicity.

Give me the source than. THe city was not burned to keep the inhabitants away as far as I know.Khosrow II 00:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Location of Julfa

"Julfa is a town currently in Nakhichevan, an autonomous republic of Azerbaijan". The word "currently" should be removed. It is in Nakhchivan, whatever its present (or future) status may be, just as Saarbrücken is in Germany or Kaliningrad is in Russia. Skinsmoke 03:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

Are there any more reasons why this article is biased? If there are no objections I'll remove the POV tag. —Khoikhoi 22:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)