Talk:Jonas Basanavičius

Conspiracy Theory?

Lysy, grow up. It was simply a small trivial coincidence that I thought interesting. And you seem to be quite the afficinado of "trivia", and an editor that revels in trivial additions to WP, when it suits you. Let's leave it out, and make you happy. BTW, how could you find it to be conspiratorial? Maybe you need to rest up a bit. Dr. Dan 14:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Polish name

I don't see much rationale for adding the Polish name into the article. In this case, a redirect and interwiki link should be enough.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 22:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Polish name do not have established EN usage at all, putting it is indeed dirsuptive and WP:POINT. If is Polish variant is used in PL sources use it in pl:Jonas Basanavičius. M.K. 06:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There's several modern non-Polish authors to refer to him by his Polish name, which is apparently enough (see James' comment at Talk:Karolina_Proniewska#Request_for_Comment). Besides, there's even more mentions of his Polish name in contemporary literature. //Halibutt 00:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Even though there is not much rationale for adding the Polish name into the article, rationality has never had much to do with the provocative POV pushing that is so transparent to everyone involved in these debates except you, my friends. And please stop the masquerade of trying to reach some modus vivendi, in our "little club", (as you once called it), instead of playing games. Dr. Dan 03:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, let's declare war on each other and stop trying to reach consensus. Is that what you propose? //Halibutt 08:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It is so easy to find Polish forms of names to almost all Lithuanians of pre-20th century, so please go on.Iulius 09:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The 1906 English reference seems to establish some marginal historical English usage, though we don't generally list every possible historical variant of people's names. An English reference written in the past 50 years would be a lot better for that, if any exist. Did he use the Polish name himself during his lifetime? If so, we could mention it in the body with an explanation like, "he also used the name Jan Basanowicz when writing in Polish". I don't really see what the French-language or Polish-language sources establish, unless they say something like that (do they?), so would suggest removing them; the fact that a Polish version of his name is used in a Polish source isn't particularly useful as evidence of anything. The fact that User:Halibutt's recent edits seem to consist of the same sort of pattern of editing on many different Lithuanian articles is also troubling. --Delirium 11:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Delirium. First of all the English source of 1906 year did not use Jan Basanowicz as the name, second this unclear citation was taken from Google books abstraction (second from top). And I bet that contributor would not provide more clearer citation regarding this quote to identify the context. Second Jonas Basanavičius is the prevailing name in EN sources [1] while Polih one is not; even not taking in account this. M.K. 13:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Delirium, will you request the same from other editors at Talk:Karolina Proniewska?

M.K., check again, Basanowicz's name is clearly mentioned. //Halibutt 07:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, there is no "clear" mentioning of Jan Basanowicz in the source which is referencing such name. Usage of this source for this purpose is WP:OR. M.K. 15:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

As I already suggested at Alex Bakharev's talk page, it is not even clear whether "Jan Basanowicz" is the Polish name. The Polish book from 1999 used as a source mentions Basanavičius seven times, and three times actually calls him "Jan Basanavičius" ([2]). --Paul Pieniezny 08:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, a bit off-topic, but it's strange to see how Lithuanian WP users zealously avoids non-Lithuanian person's name, while themselves many times are trying to push Lithuanian name even for person who lived in times when written Lithuanian was almost not used or not used at all. The official name used by Jonas Basanavičius himself was Иван Басанович (Ivan Basanovich) when he lived in Russia and Bulgaria, and I think it's worth to mention this fact. The street in Varna is named after Basanovich but not after Basanavičius [3]. Interestingly to know what name used Basanavičius when he lived in Wilno, in Poland. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 10:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Page protected

I strongly recommend that editors of this article spend more time discussing and less reverting. I've protected the page for a week in the hope that this will allow a resolution to be reached - mediation and other forms of dispute resolution may help. WjBscribe 19:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reasonable effort.Iulius 19:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Dubious references

Please provide exact (in the origin language) and translated into English citations for each of those references as per WP:V

<ref name="Rollet">{{fr icon}} {{cite book | author = | coauthors = | title =La Pologne au XXe siècle (Poland in 20th century)| year =1984 | editor =Jean Laloy | pages =47 | chapter = | chapterurl = | publisher =Editions A. Pedone | location =Paris | isbn=2233001478 }}</ref>

<ref name="Maciejewski">{{pl icon}} {{cite book | author =various authors | coauthors = | title =Przemiany formuły polskości w drugiej połowie XIX wieku (Transitions of the sense of Polish identity in the second half of 19th century) | year =1999 | editor =Janusz Maciejewski | pages =28 | chapter = | chapterurl = | publisher =IBL [[Polish Academy of Sciences]] | location =Warsaw | isbn=8387456422 }}</ref>

<ref name="NIE">{{en icon}} {{cite encyclopedia |editor=Daniel Coit Gilman, Harry Thurston Peck, Frank Moore Colby |encyclopedia=The New International Encyclopaedia |title=Lithuanian language |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=m0IrAAAAMAAJ&dq=Basanowicz&pgis=1 |edition= |year=1906 |publisher=Dodd, Mead and company |volume=12 LAT-MAN |location= | quote=The first magazine, the organ of the Young Lithuanian Party, was founded by Basanowicz|id= |pages=337 }}</ref>

Provide your own name per common sense :D But seriously, if I provide the citations, you'll remove the references anyway, like you've done in the past. So, no need to hurry IMHO. //Halibutt 17:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I do take this as a proof, that there is none of the citations supporting one's hypotesis (IMHO). and of course, please reread WP:AGF--Lokyz (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You mean you took your vandalism of the article as an evidence that there are no references? LOL. And you know why there are no references? Because you're constantly removing the ones that don't fit your funny ultra-nationalist point orf view, that's why. Want me to waste more of my time on providing references you'll instantly remove? Why so? Please explain that. //Halibutt 07:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Immediately stop your continuous personal attacks. Let me remind that you are already on restriction list. M.K. (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest several policies to be re-read by before accusing others - WP:PA, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:AGF. And, of course it would be also useful to re-read an administrator notice for a certain user [4].--Lokyz (talk) 20:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I'm not afraid of you. It's not about me or you anyways, it's about the references. You don't like them, so you remove them against any WP rule. Do you want me to do the very same thing in articles you add references to? //Halibutt 21:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT like not a chat or not a therapy, but rather WP:V.--Lokyz (talk) 22:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I provided the requested quotations. I wonder how long would it take before you delete the references once again, this time on some other grounds. Note that you were removing even the reference that already had a quotation provided, so it was not a problem of lack of quotations... rather WP:IDONTLIKEIT. //Halibutt 07:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the concurring one fact - that there is no such name established in English sources. And this is En wiki not PL.M.K. (talk) 08:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you guys are fast, it took you roughly forty minutes to remove the references. I thought it would take hours, but apparently removing a reference and changing the article to one's liking against any consensus doesn't require long hesitation. Just fire and forget, right? Wrong. As to the English language and names being established - take note that so far you added no English language sources to this article whatsoever.

On a wider note, I remember I had a problem with German names in articles on clearly Polish towns, like Gdańsk or Gdynia. But then I grew up. I wonder how come it's perfectly OK to use historical Lithuanian or German names for Polish cities or people, while even mentioning the historical name for anything that you consider Lithuanian is a no-no? I'm not provoking anyone here, I'm just curious what makes you, the Lithuanian club, different from the ROTW, or at least the Rest of Europe. Lots of borderland people out there (Polish-German, French-German, French-Spanish, Austrian-Hungarian, to name but a few), yet in all cases wikipedians can live with each other. Why can't you? //Halibutt 01:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WP is not the forum or chit chat place. M.K. (talk) 14:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

WP is neither a chit-chat place, nor the chit-chat place. It is however a place where we should all work for a common goal: a consensus. That's why I asked my questions. I know these might be hard to answer, but why won't you try? //Halibutt 23:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Fringe name

Seriously, 10 Ghits, of those 7 are from Wikipedia and its mirrors. Renata (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You'd get more if you'd go beyond first page of Google results :) And there are Google mirrors on Print/Book Search ([5]). We all know what this is about, anyway :( --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 14:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no second Gresult page. Results 1 - 9 of 9 for "Jan Basanowicz". If you want to create a redirect - by all means go ahead. But putting in the lead with no good reason is WP:UNDUE. Renata (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing, just somehow there are not a single sentence quoted, as it is requested since November (I'd like to hear the context it is mentioned, and maybe it is not Polish transcribtion but, well Bulgarian maybe, or maybe Czech since he spent many years there and there?). Also it would be nice, if no Gadu-Gadu contributors would participate in this obviously WP:POINT'ish attempts to support Polonization efforts. There is also Jerzy Waszyngton - I do wonder, why not put the name into lead of the corresponding article? I'm sure, you'd find much more references than supporting Basanavičius, and it is a factoid as one user calls it. As it is a much more numerous Juozapas Pilsudskis (I do find the second link and the citation about consistency the most illustrative in this case).--Lokyz (talk) 15:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC) updated--Lokyz (talk) 15:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding one of editors WP:PA and WP:OR [6] - one might read a signature here Act of independence of Lithuania. It is rather clear visible, and begins with Dr., not a guy.--Lokyz (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As page was protected, now supporters of Polish "name" inclusion have an opportunity to present undisputed evidences as WP:RS which would show legitimacy of using it in EN wikipedia. Otherwise the newest "improvements" will go. M.K. (talk) 14:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

They "will go" only if you present some evidence to the contrary, I already presented valid references you requested. And then defended them against vandals for several months. Let's be constructive: now it's your turn to present evidence that the Polish version of his surname is not used in the English-language publications (including the ones I provided). Might be hard, but why won't you try :) //Halibutt 02:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "valid references" - "Jean Laloy: La Pologne au XXe siècle" is not the English one, like this "Janusz Maciejewski: Przemiany formuły polskości w drugiej połowie XIX wieku " one too, wwhile this is EN wiki not a PL or FR. The only English ref presented is 1906 y. "The New International Encyclopaedia 12 LAT-MAN. (1906). Ed. Daniel Coit Gilman, Harry Thurston Peck", however there is no evidence presented that it uses Jan Basanowicz name, nor that this name is actually "Polish", therefore it violates WP:V. Therefore there is no evidence presented up to date of this name spread usage in EN publications. And finally regarding so called "defense against vandals", you already are placed on restriction list, you also formally warned by admin regarding WP:POINT campaign for the pushing irrelevant Polish names, you also was warned for the civility violations then causing established editors of vandalism and similar; and not counting systematical revert warring. Case quite clear. M.K. (talk) 07:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't change a thing. And Polish names are as relevant as Lithuanian ones, as long as there are references. And here we have three. //Halibutt 22:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Polish spelling of the name is not important in this case because of sole outdated hundred years old book. It is not a valuable source for an encyclopaedia. I don't know what is a value of French and Polish books, but in any case they do not prove importance of Polish language spelling for an English language encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.86.48 (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)