Talk:John Galt (novelist)

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Atlas Shrugged[edit]

Could someone please redirect this page to the Ayn Rand character by default? The vast majority of Wikipedia searches on this name obviously pertain to that John Galt, not the Scottish novelist. Rearden Metal 21:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why 'obviously'? Googling "John Galt" yields many high-ranking hits for the novelist (#3, #11, #12, #13, #16, #17, #20, etc). Atlas Shrugged may well be one of the greatest works of twentieth century fiction, but it's still only a work of fiction. By comparison, this Galt was a highly prolific author in his own right. He may not have been able to create a character as powerful as John Galt, but who else could? Who is John Galt?
I have fundamental issues with the WikiGestapo that has decided to restrict the number of Atlas Shrugged-related articles to just three (Atlas Shrugged, Characters in Atlas Shrugged, Things in Atlas Shrugged), especially given that every TV series going is afforded articles on any character that has more than a single line. Hell, even some half-baked teenage 'novels' receive the same treatment. I do think that John Galt deserves his own article (along with Dagny Taggart, Hank Rearden, Francisco D'Anconia, and James Taggart), but I think that it must be kept in perspective.
Furthermore, your 'move' of the article was done incorrectly on several counts. First, moves should be agreed upon - this was your sole decision to move it unilaterally. Second, moving by copying and pasting destroys the edit history; the protocol at WP:MOVE should be followed. Third, the title should have been 'John Galt (novelist)', with lower-case 'n'. Bastin 22:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Question: Why isn't this the main link for John Galt? An actual person of literary and historical importance should take precidence over a fictional character. Having a link to the Atlas Shrugged reference seems more appropriate than having the Atlas shrugged reference link to this. The fact that the actual John Galt isn't given preference over a fictional one strikes me as ironic. Shouldn't the actual John Galt occupy the main John Galt page? That, or a disambiguation page should be added. Ollie Garkey (talk) 14:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Time to disambiguate?[edit]

NOW might be the right time to address the problem of there being two prominent John Galts, since I have just created a separate article on John Galt (Atlas Shrugged). I feel that the idea of redirecting to either, in which I include keeping the current arrangement, is counter-productive and not in-keeping with policy (that is, Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Deciding to disambiguate). Hence, disambiguation is the way forward. I'll go ahead in seven days unless there are objections. Bastin 16:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no opponents to the move, it's now done. Bastin 17:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't we use a disambiguation page since both of these topics are unrelated? "However if there are two topics for a term but neither is considered the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is used." from Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Disambiguation linksOllie Garkey (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. This is a classic case where a two-way disambiguation page is the way to go. Andrewa (talk) 15:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That would be an improvement on the present situation. If there were a separate article on the character, I would agree; but it's a section redirect to List of characters in Atlas Shrugged#John Galt, which doesn't even link to this article. I support, therefore, the move request. But we should certainly do one or the other; readers who look for the novelist are now dropped into a paragraph which doesn't mention this article or link to it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There has been a separate article (with a hatnote to the novelist) at John Galt from last November until a few days ago, when it was redirected to List of characters in Atlas Shrugged#John Galt without any kind of merge or discussion on its talk page that I see. I've reverted the redirect. Station1 (talk) 04:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've now found this discussion among three editors. However, John Galt averaged tens of thousands of views per month. Station1 (talk) 04:55, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

John Galt (novelist) → John Galt — The John Galt page has been changed to a redirect page by a member of the Objectivism wikipedia project. Since the page is currently being used as a redirect, I plan to move this page to that post, with a disambiguation link, if there are no objections. Ollie Garkey (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that a simple disambiguation page including the two is the most straightforward approach. In my opinion, the fact that "John Galt" was simply hijacked in a redirect without any consultation on this talk page whatsoever is unacceptable. Deconstructhis (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To say that the page was "Highjacked" isn't really accurate. It seemed to be an attempt by a member of the Objectivism project to consolidate information. Ollie Garkey (talk) 23:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Except, in this case 'consolidate' means when someone runs "John Galt" on the Wiki search engine, it automatically takes them to a section of an article representing the fictional character. I'll rephrase my earlier description to "heavy handed edit" rather than "hijack", I still maintain it appears suspect without any prior consultation either here or on the other talk page . As has been pointed out previously on this talk page from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC,"[h]owever if there are two topics for a term but neither is considered the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is used." Since this issue has surfaced more than once in the past, I'd suggest that points toward a situation where consensus is difficult or unlikely to occur, again, indicating to me that a disambiguation page is the best approach. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 23:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have reverted the redirect of John Galt. There was a substantial article there until it was redirected to List_of_characters_in_Atlas_Shrugged#John_Galt a few days ago. There is a discussion about the need for a dab page and primary use started at Talk:John Galt before the article was redirected. (I've also moved this section from the top to bottom of this page, so please also see recent comments in sections above.) Station1 (talk) 04:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-reverted the redirect of John Galt. There was clear consensus within the Objectivism wiki project for a redirect link. That is no longer the issue of this discussion. Ollie Garkey (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see it's now been re-re-re-re-reverted by various editors. There was consensus among three editors at the wikiproject but so far three other editors seems to be at least questioning the move. It's important to settle that issue first because if the article at John Galt is to remain, that would be primary use in my opinion. If not, it might make more sense to move this article. Station1 (talk) 03:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the move as proposed, as an improvement to the current situation. However, a two-way disambiguation would be an even better solution IMO. Andrewa (talk) 16:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support what is proposed. I find it somewhat preferable to a dab page (those who want the novelist will get here directly; those who want the character are no worse) but will support either. For an example of a dab page in this situation, see David Copperfield. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The reasoning here is that if someone else moves an article away from an ambiguous base name and leaves a redirect behind, you can take the base name for your article. Behavior like this is best stopped short by putting a disambiguation page at the contested base name. --Una Smith (talk) 04:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, the reasoning here is that the novelist should be accessible to readers. The character only exists in a few sections of the Rand novel, and all we can reasonably say about him is in List of characters in Atlas Shrugged (short of extensive quotation, which would be pointless even if it did not violate copyright). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that is best achieved by disambiguating incoming links, and disambiguating incoming links is best achieved by putting a disambiguation page at the ambiguous base name. --Una Smith (talk) 14:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also see that the edit warring for control of John Galt continues. Again, end it once and for all, and put a dab page there. --Una Smith (talk) 14:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's one solution; putting the novelist there also works. I'll take either, and I encourage you to join in ending the present situation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The character is currently was [article was moved while this discussion is still active! --Born2cycle (talk) 14:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)] at John Galt. That seems appropriate per the google test results below which indicate that the character is the primary topic for this name. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IMO there's a rough consensus above in favour if John Galt being a DAB page, when the COI issues are taken into account. Andrewa (talk) 18:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What COI issues? Station1 (talk) 05:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and leave this alone. This discussion with the added one below is simply too confusing to base a change on. Go with no primary topic and leave things the way they are. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Google test results[edit]

Results 1 - 10 of about 138,000 for "john galt" "atlas shrugged".
Results 1 - 10 of about 45,100 for "John Galt" "Annals of the Parish"
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,020 for "John Galt" "The Chronicle of Dalmailing"

--Born2cycle (talk) 04:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Continued[edit]

  • Hmm. Perhaps waiting until the discussion is over is a more effective way of being neutral. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't help but notice that someone just saw fit to pull the hatnote from John Galt (Atlas Shrugged) article. Must be a coincidence. :) Deconstructhis (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NAMB, the disambiguation notice is only needed in an article if there might be confusion on the part of a reader arriving at the article. If the name of the character article is "John Galt (Atlas Shrugged)" (as it is at this moment), then there is no chance of confusion.
The bigger problem is that there are two disconnected discussions going on. People are talking about how to name the articles on this talk page, and a different set of people are talking about it on the talk page for the character's article. We need to bring the two discussions together. Otherwise we are likely to get different conclusions from each group, and editors will be stepping on one another as they implement their respective "consensus" decisions. --RL0919 (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Personally, I have no preference as to where the discussion occurs as long as everyone knows about it. I'm less sure regarding your comments pertaining to when disambiguation is "needed"; shouldn't ease of reference for the reader take precedent regardless? Judging by the Google numbers being put forward, a ballpark one in ten readers arriving from Google through a "John Galt" link are in fact looking for the Scottish novelist. A simple hatnote on the characters page to disambiguate between the two provides a useful courtesy to the reader, even at one in ten we're still talking about tens of thousands in search of the writer, not the character; as they say, this isn't paper. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not the person that removed the disambig note and I'm OK with it coming back; I'm just giving my best reading of the justification that was given for removing it.
Regarding the location of the discussion, since there is a notice on the requested moves page that points here, I would suggest this page as the appropriate location for a combined discussion. I'll mention that on the other talk page to see if I can get others to follow. --RL0919 (talk) 17:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems WP:Primary is clear here that John Galt should be the article page for the Atlas Shrugged character. Does anyone challenge that? The only question not answered directly by policy is if merge the character John Galt article into an Atlas Shrugged article or keep it as its own article. I suspect the concensus is keep it as its own article. Therefore nothing is left to do but to delete John Galt the DAB page and then move John Galt (Atlas Shrugged) to John Galt. --Karbinski (talk) 17:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but to be clear, please vote below. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To the question of MOVING John Galt (Atlas Shrugged) to John Galt[edit]

  • Support - there was no clear concensus to make the original change. --Karbinski (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose. The article is redundant with List of characters in Atlas Shrugged, and either of those stubs says everything encyclopedic about the character, who only appears in a few sections of the novel. We should probably make John Galt (novelist) into John Galt; if not, it should be a dab page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:GOOGLE (see results above). --Born2cycle (talk) 18:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Based on the evidence, I think John Galt should be assigned to the character. I would be open assigning it to a disambiguation page as a compromise if necessary, but assigning it to the novelist seems to go against WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, because the character is the apparent popularity winner for page hits and Google search results. The overlap between the character article and the List of characters in Atlas Shrugged article is something that we need to resolve separately. If the character qualifies as the "primary topic," then it should get the plain name even if it is as a redirect. If there is no clear winner as primary topic, then the dab page gets it. The novelist should only get the plain name if he qualifies as the primary topic, but given the numbers that does not seem to be a reasonable conclusion. --RL0919 (talk) 18:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no evidence that we need any such article at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The current revision of the article, which includes citations to academic work and news articles, should make evident the notability and encyclopedic worthiness of the subject. I'm also assembling material on interpretation/evaluation of the character from additional academic sources that I plan to add soon. [Update: added some, with more to come] So not only is it notable, there is sufficient material to support a separate article rather than merging it into the already overlong List of characters in Atlas Shrugged article. --RL0919 (talk) 04:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. With no more than two articles, a dab page is really unnecessary. If John Galt is to remain as a separate article, it should remain at that title, with a hatnote of course. With monthly page views ranging from 30:1 to 50:1 over John Galt (novelist), not to mention the Google results, it seems to me very clearly primary usage. If it is to be merged into the List of Characters, this particular question becomes moot. Station1 (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think I made the original move. C'mon now, this is the primary topic for the name. Protonk (talk) 05:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It seems like the most clear usage, and primary topic as well. Capitalismojo (talk) 23:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion seems to be very lopsided in favor of the character having the primary article name. Since there has been no new commentary for a couple of days, I'm going to move the articles back to their previous naming. --RL0919 (talk) 15:38, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm not an admin, that was more difficult than it could have been, but at this point it should all be sorted. The character article is at John Galt and John Galt (Atlas Shrugged) redirects there. The disambiguation page is now at John Galt (disambiguation), but with only two articles there isn't really a need for a dab page, so it should probably be deleted. --RL0919 (talk) 15:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I'm in favour of a linking directly to this one and the fictional character second. Most people who wiki it are more interested in finding out "Who is John Galt" and to learn that he is the founder of Guelph, Ontario and the namesake for my city is a very informative answer. [/dumb amswer] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.3.239.158 (talk) 20:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment about the title of this article[edit]

Hi there, I can see several editors have been around the block on this title -- in order to disambiguate it. I don't really want to create more churn but describing John Galt as a novelist is probably not giving him the credit due to him. Let me tell you how I came to this, and I will try not go on too long. I was re-writting the Tiger Dunlop article; the two men are very connected to each other both in personal and business lives. I went looking for the John Galt article and honestly couldn't find it. I simply had no idea that he would be catalogued under (novelist). John Galt is a Canadian pre-Confederation historical character responsible for many good and interesting deeds, not the least of which is founding the city of Guelph, Ontario. John Galt is also a prolific writer and novelist as shown in the article. I would like to propose that I expand the current article as I am familiar with the subject area and that the title be renamed to something like "John Galt (1779-1839)" which would not detract from his novelist activities, but would allow those interested in Canadian history to find him. Any comments? CJ_WeißSchäfer 23:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talk • contribs)

Hello again CJ_WeißSchäfer, I hadn't actually thought about it, but I believe your observation has some merit. Give me an opportunity to consider this and perhaps we'll get some other opinions as well on this topic. In the mean time; if you haven't looked at it already, perhaps having a close read of WP:TITLE will give you some ideas. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 01:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the direction to the Title section. Based on that I went to the following for some neutral input that meets those specifications. This is what I found: John Galt 1. Canadian Encyclopedia http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0003142 Novelist, colonial promoter, Canada Company,

2. Dictionary of Canadian Biography Online http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=3400&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=7bqk8hnqpgu7hibj189i6fkmc1 author and colonizer

3 Library and Archives Canada http://amicus.collectionscanada.gc.ca/aaweb-bin/aamain/itemdisp?sessionKey=999999999_142&l=0&d=2&v=0&lvl=1&itm=6885299 Shows subject headings of: Galt, John, 1779-1839 

                  	Novelists, Scottish--19th century--Biography
                  	Galt, John, 1779-1839
                  	Romanciers écossais--19e siècle--Biographies

Based on those three my thoughts would be use both Novelist and Colonizer. That would maintain the intergrity of the current title and put a little more precision into it. CJ_WeißSchäfer 18:08, 17 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talk • contribs)

WP:QUALIFIER suggests dates are usually the least useful qualifier because they are more likely to be something a reader is researching than a search criterion. If both novelist and colonizer are likely search criteria, you can simply redirect John Galt (colonizer) to this article, or move this article to that title, leaving John Galt (novelist) to redirect back. Other useful redirects such as John Galt (Guelph) or John Galt (1779-1839) can also be created. Station1 (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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