Talk:Joaquin Murrieta

Image

The image used for this page isn't Joaquín. It's John Rollin Ridge, who wrote the famous novel about Joaquín. (It's used as the cover image for Parins John Rollin Ridge: His Life and Works. Synecdoche (talk) 02:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Should his name not be spelt Murieta? If it is we will need to rename the page and put in a redirect Brentford 10:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good catch. Both spellings seem to be common. I'll make a Murieta redirect to this page, and once somebody decides the best spelling they can be swapped if needed. Willmcw 09:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

seems to me that "murieta" is more common, as well as orthographically correct in spanish. i don't see any reason to keep "murietta" dominant. It's different. Aaronbrick 06:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Murietta is incorrect in Spanish Ortography. In Spanish language, the 'R' between 'A', 'E', 'I', 'O' or 'U' is not sonorous unless it be accompanied by other 'R'. The correct ortography to this surname is "Murrieta", with two 'R's and only one 'T'.--Menah the Great 18:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Menah is correct but written Spanish was far from standardized in Murietta's day. The LCSH is "Murieta, Joaquín, d. 1853", probably for the reason that the Great mentions. Google test: Murieta: 123,000; Murrieta: 311,000; Murietta: 16,200. The search was conducted without diacritics and without quotes. I say go with whatever Neruda says. If Murieta really was Chilean, his name is not necessarily Spanish, but could be Italian or a fabrication, in which case any number of possibilities exist.--Rockero 04:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I have just completed an extensive research paper on Joaquín Murrieta, and I can verifiably say that his name was spelled Murrieta, and that there is no evidence that he was Chilean. The supposed Chilean identity was the result of a mistranslation of Murrieta's place of origin when the California Police Gazette version was translated from English to multiple other languages, then translated to Spanish. Neruda's story is amazing, but quite romanticized, along with that of Ridge. I recommend changing the title of this page to Murrieta, and redirecting Murietta, Murrietta, and and Murieta to this page, although he was also known as Muriati, Muiretta, Moriati, Muretto, and even Muerto by the press in the 1850's. --Bfraga 22:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I can attest to the fact that the name is Murrieta, as it's my last name. I have no way to prove it here, but I am a blood relative of this man. OOZ662 (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Corrido

I removed the corrido from the article. It's a primary source and should not be included. At best, it should be an external link. Here's the text I removed:

Yo no soy americano

pero comprendo el inglés.

Yo lo aprendí con mi hermano

al derecho y al revés.

Y a cualquier americano

lo hago temblar a mis pies.

Cuando apenas era un niño

huérfano a mí me dejaron,

sin tener ningún cariño,

a mi hermano lo mataron

y a mi esposa Carmelita,

cobardes, la asesinaron.

No soy chileno ni extraño

en esta tierra que piso,

de México es California

porque Dios así lo quiso,

y en mi sarape terciado

llevo mi fe de bautizo.

Qué bonito es California

con sus calles alineadas,

donde paseaba Murrieta

con su montura plateada,

con su pistola repleta

y su gente alborotada.

Yo me vine de Hermosillo

en busca de oro y riqueza,

Al indio pobre y sencillo

lo defendí con fiereza,

Y el gobierno americano

puso precio a mi cabeza.

Anduve por muchos pueblos

montado en mi buen corcel,

con mis alforjas repletas,

cien mil pesos en papel,

también les traigo a "tres dedos",

que es un compañero fiel.

A los ricos avarientos

yo les quite su dinero,

Con humildes y con pobres

yo me quite mi sombrero.

Ay, que leyes tan injustas

fue llamarme bandolero.

Murrieta no es bandolero

y los viene a desmentir,

Vengo a vengar a mi esposa

y lo vuelvo a repetir,

Carmelita tan hermosa,

como la hicieron sufrir.

Por cantinas me metí

castigando americanos.

"Tú serás el capitán

que asesinaste a mi hermano.

Lo agarraste indefenso,

orgulloso americano."

I am not an American

but I understand English.

I learned it with my brother

forwards and backwards.

And any American

I make tremble at my feet.

When I was only a child

I was made an orphan

Nobody gave me a caress

my brother was murdered,

and Carmelita my wife

by cowards was killed.

I am not Chilean nor strange

In this land where I am now,

California is of Mexico

because that was God's willing,

under my sarape on my shoulder

I have my certificate of birth.

How beautiful is California

with her aligned streets,

where Murrieta used to pass

riding his silvered saddle,

with his gun full of bullets

and his people very happy.

I came here from Hermosillo

looking for gold and fortune,

the poor and simple indian

I defended fiercely,

and the American government

set a price for my head.

I went to many towns

riding my fair horse,

with my bags very full,

one hundred thousand gold pesos,

here is my companion "three fingers",

a really loyal friend.

To the greedy rich men

I took their money from,

with the humble and poor

I used to take off my hat,

How unjuste the laws are

calling me a bandit.

Murrieta is not a bandit

and he wants to tell his truth,

I came here to revenge my wife

and I repeat that again,

So beautiful my Carmelita,

How they made her suffer.

Through cantinas I went

punishing Americans.

"You must be the captain

who killed my brother.

You took him defenseless,

you boastful American."

--howcheng [ t • c • w • e ] 00:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The corrido dates back to the 1850's supposedly, and is at least from the 1920's. Is this still too old? I know it's really hard finding an english translation of this corrido in particular. --Bfraga 04:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps someone could post this to Wikisource, so we can link to it? -Willmcw 17:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Murieta is the correct spelling...

Once again, the alternative spellings are all quite incorrect - although widely used. In the Spanish language the only correct spelling for this last name is Murieta. I have noticed that many Spanish origin names are misspelled among many in the non-Spanish speaking Mexican-American community of the US. One of the most common errors is replacing the soft single "r" sound in Spanish to the stronger and phonetically different "rr" sound. This happens often and I assume is a result of the Spanish being the second language to many Mexican-Americans, as opposed to English.

In regard to his origins, the possibility of him being Chilean or Mexican are pretty equal. Thousands of Chileans came to California during the Gold Rush and settled in northern California. San Francisco had a whole area near what is today North Beach referred to as "Little Chile". There are also folk tales - much like the Mexican ones - of Murieta fleeing California and returning to Chile. With sightings of Murieta in Mexico, Peru, Panama, Bolivia. Not to mention that in Chile he is revered by many as a national hero - with a birthplace memorial to him in Quillota, Chile and tales of his rebel activities in solidarity with the exploited nitrate miners of northern Chile while fighting oppressive British and Chilean business interests. The book remains even more open as many rebel types are believed to have used the name in various countries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Komunysta (talk • contribs) 01:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

The comments of the first paragraph are entirely false, and frankly somewhat offensive. The correct spelling based on much research is Murrieta. The second paragraph concerning his purported Chilean origins is refuted by extensive academic research. Just because there were Chileans in California does not mean that there is equal possibility of Murrieta being Chilean or Mexican. --Bfraga 08:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The loss of proper Spanish is not uncommon in Latin American immigrant communities in the US. This is not offensive, it is merely a factual outcome of the lack of bilingual education in the US. Another problem here is that the whole body of literature regarding Murieta's possible Chilean origins is being omitted, only because it does not stem from Mexican-American folklore. Due to the overwhelming majority of Mexican-Americans versus any other Latin American ethnicity within the US, particularly communities with little command of the English language, it will be difficult to find fair discussion of this issue in this forum. One thing I can say, is that in Chile, Joaquin Murieta is regarded much more highly as a historical figure than he is in Mexico proper. Now, among Americans of Mexican descent, that I guess is a mixed bag.

Regardless of what the correct spelling is in modern Spanish, it seems to be clear that his name was spelled "Murrieta" in the US at the time. See also Murrieta, California, named after Juan Murrieta. howcheng {chat} 00:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Being a decendant of his, I can attest that our name is "Murrieta." It's stated as such throughout our family documents. OOZ662 (talk) 17:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Zorro based on Murrieta..

Zorro the fictional person is a gitano yet Joaquin is a Criollo which is 2 different things...but then again I personally think Mexicans try to pass for gitanos and they always get them wrong when they create stories they show them as wealthy dark haired people from Spain when they was/are peasants..it was the Moors who had wealthy but they had nothing to do with Mexico. --Maria —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.153.29.235 (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Surprisingly, the Zorro character was not a converso or had ancestors who were Spanish Jews forcibly converted to Catholicism during the Spanish Inquisition of the 1500's. The Moors and Gitanos suffered under such levels of ethnic and religious persecution under the zealous monarchs to ensure everyone in the kingdom were Christians as the Roman Catholics were the state church. If the Murrieta family tried to pass for Gypsies, Moors and even Anglos, Joaquin could claimed to be Chilean or who knows, Argentine, in part most of Argentina's population are full-blood Caucasians. + 71.102.12.55 (talk) 11:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Cherokee Indian ancestry?

I heard and read some things about Joaquin Murrieta on a "Hispanic" cultural discussion magazine, about his mother was of Cherokee and Anglo-American descent, whose parentage settled in Chile in the late 18th century. This would classify him as a Native American of North American origins, despite it may be a rumor to further identify him as a hero of both Indian and Hispanic peoples in California in the mid 19th century. This is also discussed on the Americans and Canadians in Chile article. + 71.102.53.48 (talk) 07:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What are the sources for the biographical information?

I am curious about the sources for the bibliographical information in this article. It seems to me it should be cited, given the history of Joaquin scholarship (notably late nineteenth-century historians of California using Ridge's novel as a historical source). I am also wondering if the article should address the fact that Murrieta's existence is in fact fairly dubious to begin with. It refers to him as being "semi-legendary" but, as someone who is researching Ridge's novel, I've noticed that most of the scholarship on him currently takes it for granted that while there he was largely a fiction even before Ridge's novel solidified him as such. Synecdoche (talk) 12:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

On a semi-related topic, I believe I could provide documents from our family on Joaquin. I'm not sure where or how to upload them, though. OOZ662 (talk) 17:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see "semi-legendary" defined. 71.165.132.4 (talk) 18:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Joaquin is almost an entirely fictional character invented by Ridge so there is not really any genuine biographical information to speak of unless you want to talk about some small time thief connected to murdering Chinese people in the 1800s. Jarwulf (talk) 06:00, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

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