Talk:Jewish holidays/Archive 1

[Sep 2004] Birkat Ha'hamah: The Blessing of the Sun

The following copyrighted text is from the Encyclopedia Judaica. It is offered as a source for my recent edit:

Calendar

Tekufot: "Seasons" - As stated, the four seasons in the Jewish year are called tekufot. More accurately, it is the beginning of each of the four seasons—according to the common view, the mean beginning—that is named tekufah (literally "circuit," from Pvc related to Pcn, "to go round"), the tekufah of Nisan denoting the mean sun at the vernal equinoctial point, that of Tammuz denoting it at the summer solstitial point, that of Tishri, at the autumnal equinoctial point, and that of Tevet, at the winter solstitial point. The mean length of the seasons, each exactly one quarter of the year, was reckoned by Mar Samuel (c. 165–254, head of the academy at Nehardea in Babylon) at 91d. 7 1/2h. Hence, with his solar year of 365d. 6h., or 52 weeks and 1 1/4 days—identical in length with the Julian year—the tekufot move forward in the week, year after year, by 1 1/4 days.

Accordingly, after 28 years the tekufah of Nisan reverts to the same hour on the same day of the week (Tuesday 6 p.m.) as at the beginning: this 28-year cycle is named the great, or solar, cycle (mahazor gadol, or mahazor hammah). This length of the solar year is important in respect of two minor rituals only

(1) the date of She'elah, the commencement in the Diaspora of the petition for rain inserted in the benediction Birkat ha-Shanim in the Amidah, on December 5 or 6 in the present century;

(2) The Blessing of the Sun on the day of the tekufah of Nisan at the beginning of the 28-year cycle....

THE BLESSING OF THE SUN, a prayer service in which the sun is blessed in thanksgiving for its creation and its being set into motion in the firmament on the fourth day of the world (Gen. 1:16–19). The ceremony is held once every 28 years. It takes place after the morning prayer, when the sun is about 90° above the eastern horizon, on the first Wednesday of the month of Nisan. The date is based on calculations by the amora Abbaye, according to whom the vernal equinox cycle (called mahzor gadol) always begins then (Ber. 59b). Although Abbaye's method became obsolete after the adoption of R. Adda's calendar, the ceremony has not fallen into desuetude. The order of the recital is as follows: Psalms 84:12, 72:5; 75:2, Malachi 3:20, Psalms 97:6 and 148, the benediction: "Praised be the Maker of creation," which is followed by Psalms 19 and 121, the hymn El Adon (of the Shaharit prayer of the Sabbath), the baraita of Abbaye (Ber. 59b), and the quotation of an aggadah by R. Hananiah b. Akashya (Mak. 3:16). The rite ends with a short thanksgiving prayer in which the congregation expresses gratitude for having been sustained until this day, and the hope to live and reach the days of the Messiah and of the fulfillment of the prophesy of Isaiah "and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of the seven days" (Isa. 30:26). The dates for the ceremony in the second half of the 20th century are April 8, 1953 and March 18, 1981.

Birkat Ha-Hammah is not a holiday. It is a prayer that is said on a particular date--a short prayer at that. At most, it is the equivalent of Kiddush Levana, which is not a holiday. In fact, when it was last said, I was in a senior in high school. I remember it being very brief and very early. List it under Jewish blessings or prayers, not under holidays. I have therefore removed it to its own article,Danny 14:48, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The correct link is Birkat HaHammah. Thanks Danny. JFW | T@lk 20:14, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I'm going to win this one, but I would argue that Simchat Torah is also not a holiday -- it is a set of customs that are observed on the holiday of Shemini Atzeret (viz. the second day thereof, in places that observe two days). Thus the kiddush and amidah "on Simchat Torah" say "yom hashemini chag ha'atzeret hazeh". Dreyfus 00:07, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[Oct 2005] Rosh Chodesh

I added Rosh Chodesh. I later noticed that the Rosh Chodesh article that says it is not a holiday. I'm not trying to start an argument, but this page seems to be as compendium of all special days on the Jewish Calendar and Rosh Chodesh has at least as good a claim as for being here as many of the other entries. I think it has a place on the template as well. --agr 19:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[Mar 2006] Name of Article

Should it be "Jewish holidays"? Because, when I saw it, I thought it was about some specific holiday - not the different holidays. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 04:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

All this is interesting but shouldn't there be a page on Israeli (as opposed to Jewish) holidays too, i.e. one that discusses which days are declared official government holidays in Israel. Pages for other countries exist, example the Sweden page links to official Swedish holidays. While this page discusses some Israeli (as opposed to Jewish) holidays too like Jerusalem Day and Holocaust Remembrance Day, what is the status of other holidays, for instance Christmas in Israel? Also a lot of former British colonies still have holidays such as the Bank Holiday on their calendars. Are these non-working days in Israel?

For the record, from long before the date that I moved this to the talk page archive, the above unsigned comment had been addressed by a link to the "Public Holidays in Israel" article. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

[Dec 2006] Listing of Gregorian Dates in Article

I came to this page to find out the dates of the Jewish holidays. I'm still in the dark. WHAT exactly is the point of giving the dates only in Hebrew (I presume)? Are Jewish holiday dates a secret, to be kept from non-Jews?

Because the Hebrew calendar is significantly different from the conventional calendar, the dates of the Jewish holidays vary from year to year on the conventional calendar. An article such as this one shouldn't attempt to list dates. If you Google "Jewish holiday dates", several websites should appear which keep lists for years into the future. DrGaellon 06:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

WHERE ARE THE DATES ! An encyclopaedia should show the most important data that readers would be seeking, ie DATE/S ! 'Complexity' seems a poor excuse, 'availability elsewhere' would equally excuse closing Wikipedia, and the above writer doesn't seem unreasonable to suspect secretiveness. IMHO it's suggestive of habits of protecting/projecting esoteric expertise to promote rabbinic authority, which was probably a not insignificant factor in arguments about calenders & date-setting over the ages. Anyway... it seems i must go to other enclopaedia, or whatever, to find when Pesach starts ;-) 86.136.131.183 05:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC) MT

You are not understanding. There is no 'hiding' the dates from you. The Hebrew calendar does NOT line up with the Gregorian calendar. The dates change EVERY YEAR. That is why we can't put the dates here. The Gregorian calendar is solar and our calendar is a fixed lunar calendar. Here is an EXTENSIVE article on the Jewish calendar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar and here is a Hebrew Calendar that you can set for the year you are in - http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/ . And please don't accuse people of keeping information from you or being secretive if you don't do any research into it. Look past the first page you land on. Your comments are rude and ignorant. THDju (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

[May 2007] NPOV and accuracy in Introduction

The introduction starts off well by describing Judaism as "simultaneously a religion, a system of ethics, a social ideology, and a trans-national quasi-citizenship," though I might take some technical differences. However, the introduction fails when it attempts to classify the holidays, and sometimes disturbs me with its secular/cultural POV and disregard for the religious/traditional one. Specifically, I take issue with the following points:

• "There are secular holidays, like Hanukkah and Purim which, while they may have a religious aspect or component, are festive occasions that generally reside on the secular side of Jewish history and tradition." What exactly is meant by this? Who's to say that the "religious aspect" of Hanukkah is secondary to the "secular side"? How do you differentiate between "secular" and "religious" tradition? And the term "Secular holiday" is itself an oxymoron, in the etymological sense of "holiday."
• "The oldest holidays are the ones associated with the full moon — because they are so old, they pre-date the establishment of the new moon as the key date of the month on the Jewish Calendar." This is a blatantly anti-traditional approach, yet stated as fact. The Torah clearly describes the commandment of declaring the new moon before anything else, see the first Rashi on Bereishit.
• "But the Jewish day begins at sunset — or for business purposes in Israel, at 6:00 PM." This last point should be sourced, and probably doesn't belong in an introduction to Jewish Holidays. It's also contrary to millenia-old tradition, but not stated as such.
• "As they are listed on most Gregorian calendars, Jewish holidays begin at sunset on the day before the date given — much in the way that Christmas Eve precedes the Christian festival of Christmas Day instead of following it." Lehavdil elef havdalot. Is this analogy to Christmas really necessary?
• The Fast of Tevet was "established by the State of Israel," but "observed by Jews for centuries"? It's discussed in the Talmud, and its source comes from at least the fifth century BCE. That would make it observed by Jews for millenia. I don't see why the State of Israel gets the credit.
• "The best known of these is Tu B'Shevat, the "New Year for Trees," which harkens to the days, in prehistoric and pre-Judaism, of tree magic and tree calendars. This may, in fact, be the oldest holiday celebrated by Jews. The fact it is calendared according to the full moon instead of the new moon certainly indicates it is one of the three oldest holidays on the Jewish Calendar, the other two being Passover and Sukkot." This is all completely antithetical to over two thousand years of Rabbinic tradition, yet stated as "certainly." I am disgusted.
• "There are a number of stories about the reasons some Jews observe Passover and Rosh Hashanah for two days when the Torah commands they are only one day." The remainder of the introduction describes one legitimate explanation and one "erroneous" explanation at great length. This first sentence is therefore misleading. Furthermore, Sukkot and Shavuot are extended too, and this extention is observed by all Jews living in the Diaspora (except for Reform Jews in the last two centuries). It's not just "some Jews."

I am not proposing that we censor any interpretation of the Jewish holidays. I only ask that there be respect for the Rabbinic understanding of the holidays, and that modern theories not be presented as certain fact. Please source them, too, as some of them sound dubious to me. שבועות שמח ‎חג  —Rafi Neal |T/C 21:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Long-since modified StevenJ81 (talk) 15:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

[Dec 2007] ha ha im an israelian and i dont know half of this holydays

only purim passover chanuka Dance with a monkeypurim rosh ha shana sukot and new year

we really have —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.94.69.176 (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well then, young man, you've got some learnin' to do. Proxy User (talk) 06:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone mind if we delete this one section, even if it is a talk page? It's just embarrassing. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no objection. As an alternative, you might want to archive the old discussions. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

 DoneStevenJ81 (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

[Feb 2008] Lede

The current opening sentence is not accurate:"A Jewish holiday or festival is a day or series of days observed by Jews as a holy or secular commemoration of an important event in Jewish history." I would propose changing it to: "The term Jewish Holiday encompasses a variety of days of special significance. in the Jewish calendar. These include festivals prescribed in the Torah, Rabbinicly commanded observances and more recent customs. Many commemorate events in Jewish history, ancient and modern." Comments?--agr (talk) 15:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I like your language. I think it's an improvement. I would like to suggest that we acknowledge that some modern Jewish holidays have no religious significance. One way might be to add the phrase ", secular and religious" after "more recent customs". But that's awkward. If you can think of a more elegant way of working in the concept, that would be fine. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I can think of an even more effective way of communicating that message--reverting the template to the way it was, with a separate template for the secular holidays that have nothing to do with Judaism. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

[Oct 2008] Dates Should Be Stated Jewish Style

I am concerned that dates are misstated in this article; or, rather, they are stated in Western/International calendar style when they should be stated in Jewish calendar style.

For example, Erev Yom Kippur is given as happening on 9 Tishrei. That is absolute nonsense. The evening of Yom Kippur is on the evening of *10* Tishrei - it always has been and it always will be. It happens that in Jewish/Middle Eastern tradition, the day begins at sunset - as compared to European and East Asian traditions, which start the day at sunrise.

I would not have a problem with an article that stated Erev Yom Kippur began after sunset on 9 Tishrei, since that is a true statement. But I *do* very much have a problem with Jewish holidays being described in terms that effectively apologise for the holiday being Jewish instead of Protestant. We are Jews because we are Jews, not because we're too stupid and ignorant to become Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.18 (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that they should be in the Jewish calendar, but also a calendar that non Jews (and Jews that are not knowledgable about the Jewish calendar) can understand, i.e. the Gregorian calendar. This is, after all Wikipedia for everyone... Proxy User (talk) 06:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be inaccurate to include Gregorian dates for the Jewish holidays, since they "float" on the Gregorian calendar. There's an article, Jewish holidays 2000–2050, that shows the correspondence for the next 50 years. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

[May 2010] Chassidic holidays?

The holidays that were added are specific to Chabad, a sect of 200,000 people. Considering there are more than 13 million Jews, holidays commemorated by 200,000 of them (roughly 1.5%) probably don't belong in the article. See WP:UNDUE and WP:CHABAD. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:18, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I accept that, but then we should also omit from the template--(supposedly) dedicated to Jewish holidays--the recent addition of "observances" that aren't even necessarily kept by Jews, but are legislated by the secular US gov't for political reasons. Chassidic holidays kept by hundreds of thousands of Jews are at least as significant. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 17:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, they shouldn't be in the template. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

What observances legislated by the United States government were ever listed here? StevenJ81 (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

[Nov 2011] Eliminate "No footnotes" template

I wonder if we cannot eliminate this template. Pretty much everything here is at the most superficial, but most uncontroversial level. The facts are widely known and widely available; in many cases, I wouldn't even know where to begin to recommend placing a citation. (And pretty nearly all the days listed here have separate articles with full sets of references.) Clearly, some things deserve specific citations, but I don't know that the whole article really needs to be interrupted with citations.

StevenJ81 (talk) 16:05, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done I have removed the "no footnotes" template effective today. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

[Nov 2011] Shabbat Redux

Can we put Shabbat first (and, I guess, Rosh Hodesh second)?

StevenJ81 (talk) 16:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I repeat the previous question, and plan to place Shabbat first and Rosh Hodesh second if I have not heard responses in seven days. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

No problem. Debresser (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done StevenJ81 (talk) 17:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)