Talk:Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Conclusion in regard with La Pérouse

– " Launching of the cruiser "La Pérouse" at Brest Harbour ", in L'Illustration n° 1812, November 17, 1877 " – " When the "La Pérouse" is going to pay homage to the deads of l' "Astrolabe" and of la "Boussole ", in Cols bleus, Journal de la Marine française n° 350, May 22, 1954 " – " The "La Pérouse" at Mayotte ", by Commander Jacques Fournery commanding the ship ", in La Revue Maritime n° 200, June 1963 " – " The "La Pérouse" at Mururoa", by Captain Jacques Fournery commanding the ship", in La Revue Maritime n° 245, July 1967 " – " Toponyms inherited from La Pérouse ", in Cols bleus, Le magazine de la Marine et de la mer n° 2796, September 2, 2006 " – "Log-book of the BH La Pérouse ", in Cols bleus, Le magazine de la Marine et de la mer n° 2915, July 25, 2009 = Here are some examples of the name "La Pérouse" being officially used up to 1986 when the new survey ship was named "Lapérouse". The form "La Pérouse" is officially in use again since May 2009 – As a conclusion, in accordance with documents of the18th century and as the navigator did, his two sisters, their families and descendants wore the name La Pérouse up to the end of the 19th century, further to the ordinance referring to his signature which decided to modify the descendants name into Lapérouse. From this time, the new form was imposed to the families and replaced in official documents. Sometimes, when that was materially possible, the name La Pérouse was erased and replaced by Lapérouse. Then on this basis, some people used the new form for the name of the navigator himself. From this time an endless confusion started. Happily, a great many authors, historians, learned or knowledgeable persons carried on the tradition and respected the name of Jean-François de Galaup, Count of La Pérouse – I thank all those who will have read me and decide now to stop my participation to the discussion. Jacques Thomas (talk) 12:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Jacques Thomas you have detailed a list of documents published about the ship Lapérouse but using the name "La Pérouse". Those articles concern the French naval Cruiser Lapérouse and also the later hydrographic survey ship carrying the name Lapérouse A791. That those particular articles use the name La Perouse instead of the ship's commissioned name Laperouse does not support a change in the the name of the ship on the WP article. That the WP FR article bears the wrong name is something that should be remedied, not repeated on the English language article. This indeed is why I have questioned the reliability of the French articles as they are not detailing fact and seem to have become subjective. You have not quoted "official" sources above. The official and primary is source is the French navy or the French ministry of Defence. They refer to that Cruiser of the French Navy as the "Lapérouse" both in the historical record and also on the ships original plans.
This ship had drawn up using the name Lapérouse, it was built, in Brest, as the Lapérouse, it was launched as the Lapérouse. It was then commissioned as the Lapérouse and sailed as a ship of the French navy until it was wrecked and beached in a storm in Madagascar. It was then de-commissioned, still bearing the name Lapérouse. That remains then name in the official records of the French Maritime Museum, the French naval records and the ministry of Defence records. Accordingly it should be documented as the Lapérouse in Wikipedia articles. It is in the EN version, it is not in the FR version. That mis-naming in the FR article should be remedied.
Similar is the situation regarding the more recent French naval ship bearing the name Lapérouse A791, in the Service Hydrographique et Océanographique de la Marine. You may find publications bearing the name La Pérouse, however the French navy apparently do not agree with this. Site officiel de la marine nationale describes the ship, its colours (Fanion) and coat of arms (Tape de bouche) stating "Lapérouse", and gives what appears to be an official account of the history of the French naval officer Lapérouse published by the Navy. (Biographie de Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse (1741-1788)) and a history of his voyages of discovery, (L'expédition de Lapérouse). This ship named is also fully described in the document Bâtiment hydrographique Lapérouse (A 791)-Site officiel de la marine nationale available from the French Ministry of Defence website.
Un bref historique, de 1785 à nos jours, has 14 matches to the name Lapérouse in this official French Ministry of Defence document and none to La Pérouse. In reference to the Vanikoro expedition Expedition to Vanikoro in 2005 the official publications by the expedition organisers, the Ministry of Defence, the Navy, the Ministry of Culture, the Maritime museum, the Lapérouse museum in Albi and many other notable sources all refer to the name "Lapérouse". Journaux de bord : Ministry of Defense-Marine nationale, au revoir Vanikoro, Par Batral Dumont D'Urville le mercredi, 15 octobre 2008 does the same. That is from an account on the web page of a participating naval ship (Batral Dumont D'Urville).
The index to the official account by l'expédition Lapérouse 2008 is the official expedition account of the 2008 trip to Vanikoro. There is a similar official account of the earlier expeditions. The all use the spelling "Lapérouse", as does Opération Lapérouse - Journal De Bord À Vanikoro Association Salomon. (Résumé : Lorsque les deux frégates de Lapérouse, la Boussole et l'Astrolabe, sombrent sur les récifs de Vanikoro une nuit de 1788) This account Les films des expéditions Vanikoro bientôt rediffusées sur France 5-Expedition Laperouse 2008 also details Opération Lapérouse 2008.
Your assertion that Marine Nationale ( the French Navy) has been using "La Pérouse", ("La Pérouse is officially in use again since May 2009) does not fit with the facts and so can not go unanswered).
I have located just one instance of a Marine Nationale use of "La Pérouse" and this is in relation to a 'official online naval journal discussing deployments and activities. This one uses "La Perouse" on the Marine website page at; It is titled Journaux de bord : Marine nationale, Recherche (search) - La Pérouse this having been the result of a word search Recherche (search) - for La Pérouse and it deals with a trip to Australia. There are 2 occurrences of the usage of "La Pérouse", (+1 describing the search-Recherche- La Pérouse)and 30 occurrences of the usage of "Lapérouse". Frankly it looks more like a typographic error on a couple of the journal entries rather than anything else.
Also if you care to do an objective review of bibliotheque resources you will find publications referring to Lapérouse that create somewhat of a problem for your assertions.
It is not that I wish to be disagreeable with you but it is difficult to fall into agreement with you when much of the evidence you present is of secondary sources. As to that presented in documentation of the 18C.
I have supplied for your reference the link to a copy of the signed document despatched from Botany Bay (in what is now) Australia This was sent back to France on the British ship Sirius. However there are many more examples available bearing his name presented in this fashion by Lapérouse himself. Surely Lapérouse himself is a more notable source than someone else writing about him.
Collection de portraits CIPA0478] is a good example. It bears the name "La Perouse 52e livraison" on the letter, also a portrait. It displays his signature, written in his own script as "Lapérouse".
The document detailing his portrait (gauche) is also a good example of this to be found at and appears to bear his signature "Laperouse)
It is also available from the National Library of Australia as it is held in the 'Rex Nan Kivell' collection. "Letter signed by de Lapérouse with notes by Maréchal de Castrics and the Chevalier de Fleurieu (laparouse refers to returning to Boston...)
Patrimoime Maritime de Nouvelle Calédonie Musée de l'Histoire Maritime also seems quite certain on their use of Lapérouse and have paid a lot of attention to the history of Lapérouse and the subsequent quests for information as to his fate in the south pacific.
I have only really only concentrated on notable French sources here as Lapérouse was a significant French person and was engaged in the service of La Royale and the Royaume de France, however there are quite bountiful resources elsewhere in the world such as those available in Australia at the National library, the Maritime Museum, historical records and in academic papers.
Again I suggest you focus your attentions upon the French Ministry of Culture, the Ministry of Defence, the French Maritime Museum, The Lapérouse museum at Albi. If you can get them to change their policies on the naming convention of Lapérouse vis-à-vis La Pérouse and they all make an official pronouncement and start re-naming things then I personally will assist you to change everything relating to Lapérouse over to La Pérouse without equivocation.
I also refer you to the Annotated Bibliography of Laperouse, Jean-Francois Galaup de 1741-1788. Voyage Autour Du Monde Sur L'Astrolabe et La Boussole (1785-1788). Paris: Editions La Decouverte, 1991 available at Mount Shasta, Annotated Bibliography, Chapter 4, Early Exploration: Lapérouse Expedition, 1786, see (MS757). Here the origins of the name of Laperouse is discussed. "The introduction to this book also contains information on the spelling of the Laperouse name. Most books and articles spell his name as 'La Perouse,' 'la Perouse,' or 'laPerouse,' all in reference to his own early signature of 'La Peyrouse.' But after having been given by his parents a large landed estate named 'Laperouse' he began, upon his entry into the French navy, to sign his name as one word as 'Laperouse' (p. 14). The editor considers 'Laperouse' to be the most appropriate spelling."
Association Solomon has published Bel hommage rendu à ce savant un peu oublié dans l'ombre de LAPEROUSE by Alain CONAN (Président de l'association Salomon) and describes Lapérouse and his voyages.
Please understand that things like the name of a ship ie. the cruiser Lapérouse is not changeable. It is a historic fact that ship was called Lapérouse and that cannot should not be be changed. As to the current BH class Lapérouse that also is just a historic fact, that is what they are called, there is no ambiguity due to the fog of history. As to Lapérouse A791 it has been commissioned as Lapérouse and assigned the ship number A791. That also cannot be changed. If the Marine nationale decide to rename that ship La pérouse A791 whilst it is still commissioned then I will take pleasure in assisting you to write that up for the appropriate WP article detail and rename the article La pérouse A791 with a section detailing the history of the ship's name (as previously Lapérouse A791) and the reasons for changing it. Until then I don't think much should be changing on Wikipedia other than some considerable work on the French articles correcting the anomalies there. As I have already noted there are many article on FR WP that have article names and article content conflicting with known fact and cited references. The French Wikipedia article on the Cruiser Lapérouse is a stand out example of that and there are many more there. Felix (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Last recommendation

If WK vishes to be credible, what is not always the case today, it is a better practice to believe those who took pains to make sure of an historic fact, than to follow the flow of those who think to be right and who are wrong. As far as La Pérouse is concerned, the best and only way to precisely know how he must be named is to look back to the time when he was living and for about a century after. Beyond this limit, his name started to be deformed, more and more used by people who were obliged to do it, by some who did not know the past or deliberately decided to ignore it. When the conclusion of a long study is formally approved by the most qualified institutions like the Institut de France, the Académie Française, the Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, the Ministère de la Culture et de la Communication, the Archives de France and some other, adopted by a great many important learned personalities, when this study has been widely broadcast to any who had to know of it, the author may think that the mission which he had undertaken is achieved. Jacques Thomas (talk) 05:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacques Thomas (talk • contribs) 03:26, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Of some who knew La Pérouse's name in the past and nowadays

His Majesty, The King Louis XVI - Countess Eléonore de La Pérouse,his wife – Victoire de Barthès, his sister - His collateral descendants in the 19th century - Marshal de Castries, minister of the Navy - Count de Chabrol, minister of the Navy - Admiral Duperré, minister of the Navy - Baron Hyde de Neuville, minister of the Navy - Chevalier de Fleurieu, director of Harbours and Arsenals - Count de Roquefeuil who commanded at Brest - Paul-Antoine Fleuriot de Langle, commanding L'Astrolabe - Charles-Henry de Ternay, Governor of the Ile-de-France - Officers, scientists, scholars aboard La Boussole and L'Astrolabe - Lieutenant Blondela - Lieutenant-commander de Boutin - Hyacinthe de Bougainville - Jean-Nicolas Buache de La Neuville - Joseph-Antoine d'Entrecasteaux - François René de Chateaubriand, writer - André de Chénier, poet - F.P. Delattre, at the Assemblée nationale, in 1791- Peter Dillon, who discovered the place where the expedition wrecked - Rear-admiral Jules Dumont d'Urville - Admiral Dupetit-Thouars - Sub-lieutenant Freton de Vaujuas - Jacques-Julien de La Billardière - Jean-François de La Harpe - Chevalier de Lamanon - Barthélemy de Lesseps - Gabriel Marcel, Bibliothèque Nationale, writer - General Baron de Milet-Mureau, who transcribed his Journal - Captain de Rossel - Jules Verne, writer - The Almanach Royal, year 1786 to 1790 - The Assemblée nationale, in1791 - An authority in the Indies - The Société d'Histoire naturelle of Paris, in 1791 - The Annales de la Marine, in 1816 - The Journal des Débats, in 1828 - Administrative documents of the Navy - Some ships of the Navy, since 1830 - 

Nowadays

The Archives de France - The Société des Océanistes - The Association Salomon, organiser of expeditions - Alain Conan, president and initiator of researches at Vanikoro - Alphonse, Duke of Anjou and Cadix - Admiral Jean-Louis Battet, former Chief of staff of the Navy - Admiral Alain Oudot de Dainville, former Chief of staff of the Navy - Jacqueline Beaujeu-Garnier, president of the Société de Géographie - George Bordonove, historian of La Pérouse - S.L. Chapin, Congrès international d'histoire des sciences - Pierre-Jacques Charliat, Académie de Marine - Maurice Cottard, artistic Chronicler - Professor (r) John Dunmore, de Massey University (Nouvelle-Zélande) - specialist of the French navigators in the Pacific Ocean - G.T. Emmons, American Anthropologist - Rear Admiral Jacques Fournery, who commanded the "La Pérouse" in the Pacific Ocean - Jules Garnier, Société de Géographie - Julius S. Gassner, University of Albuquerque - Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac, historians de La Pérouse - Captain Jean Guillou, historian of the Pacific Ocean - P. Huard and M.Zobel, Congrès national des sociétés savantes - R.R. Inglis, director of the Vancouver Maritime Museum - R. de Kerallain, La Géographie - Jacques and Monique Lay, historians - Denis Lemaître, professeur agrégé de lettres, doctor of the University -Chevalier de l'Ordre des Palmes académiques - J. Linnekin, Journal of Pacific History - Leslie R. Marchant, historian of La Pérouse, University of Western Australia - Joseph Martray, director of La Nouvelle Revue Maritime - Hans-Otto Meissner, historian of La Pérouse - Jules Rouch, Académie de Marine - Jean Sévillia, historian -

The Journal de Nouvelle-Calédonie - Les Nouvelles Calédoniennes - The Bibliothèque La Pérouse, à Brest - Street La Pérouse in Paris - Site La Perouse, près de Sydney - Mount La Perouse en Nelle Zélande – Straight of La Pérouse, between Russia and Japan - Jacques Thomas (talk) 08:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

La Pérouse and the French Navy

According to the historian Pierre Couesnon, the « LA PEROUSE» (1946-1977) which is seen here was the fifth ship of the French Navy to wear this name. The first one was a brick of 33,60 m long with 20 guns (1830-1875). The second was a cruiser 'à barbette' of 80 m long (1875-1898). Then a colonial hydrograph aviso of 64 m long (1919-1945), and at last a colonial aviso which was on the slips at Bordeaux 1939 but was never finished - Future admiral Jacques Fournery was in command of the LA PEROUSE in the Pacific and Indian oceans. In 1986, a new survey vessel was named "Lapérouse" ! I have excellent photographs proving that the name in two words was used by the French Navy but it seems imposible to send them here. Jacques Thomas (talk) 06:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

La Pérouse in the French Navy

For those who are concerned with the name of La Pérouse, please, search on Google for ' La Pérouse (Hydro) ', particularly on pages 7 - 10 - 27. There are interesting photographs. Jacques Thomas (talk) 09:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Response to Jacques Thomas

I did a google search as suggested and turned up some very interesting blogs and some interesting web articles on that post war Aviso. Absolutely fascinating photos and some great stories from some of the surviving crew. The ship photos are great as are the crew shots. Those two beautiful south pacific girls standing shore-side waving to the departing/arriving ship is particularly moving. The tale of the food on board was pretty horrendous. Sounds like A750/F750 was not exactly a Jeanne d'Arc glamour posting. The ship did some very interesting voyages and has an intriguing history. I was also interested in the article that detailed "5 ships" and I was considering using the material and citing it in the Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse. The ship Laperouse A750/F750 is described as being laid down prior to the outbreak of hostilities, later post hostilities it was finished and launched as an aviso.
This insigne du Lapérouse webpage is interesting. The insignia described there appear to use Laperouse but I must comment that I also found the rearing horse on the shield and a star Mandala elsewhere that were using La Pérouse. As none of these have any direct naval citations there are of course merely of interest and can have no useful encyclopaedic bearing on our issues above. Still, I found them quite interesting and they of course further illustrate the confusion that reigns over this matter of the spelling.
I did note that the photos of the entrance gate were credited to Societe de Geographie Paris. I had a look at their website CE QUE REPRÉSENTE LA SOCIÉTÉ DE GÉOGRAPHIE and found a reference to Lapérouse in the lead paragraph.
There is also a scan or photo of what appears to be a panel from a commemorative 'card' with the rearing horse on a shield with La Perouse written across it. This is clearly referring to the Aviso Laperouse A750/F750. Hard to establish the source though, I understand from reading the blog it is posted on and some information from other similar sources that this was from a card that also carried a photo of the ship in the south pacific.
I did find a scan of a naval chart, apparently the outcome of hydrographic survey work in Madagascar in which F750 participated. This appears to be a Marine nationale publication Ile Sante Marie (Indian ocean) 1955 and 1959 and bears the name of the ships involved, it includes the batiments hydrographes "Laperouse" and "Alidade", Service Hydrographique de la Marine Paris, 1960.
Below are some details I managed to scrape out of a considerable number of websites I looked over seeking information on ALL of the French naval ships bearing the name Laperouse. I have also detailed some merchant ships as I came upon them as well.

Naval ships (4)

  • 1919-1945, LAPEROUSE; (1919, 63 m, 781 t, 1100 CV, 104 h, 11 nds) Bâtiment hydrographiques-La Flotte de guerre française en 1945 from Liste des bâtiments en service au 1er janvier 1945. Réalisation Guillaume Rueda - source "Flottes de Combat 1944/45". Hydrographer LAPEROUSE: scuttled in Cantho. Built in Brest in 1918 as a refrigerated transport type Coëtlogon (comme transport frigorifique du type Coëtlogon.). It was cut in half and lengthened by 12 meters to allow the ship to be converted to the hydrographic service role. Displacement: 540 tons, Dimensions: 64 x 8.10 x 2.80 m, Speed: 17 nd, Armament: 1 cannon 47 mm. Departed from Brest on 1 April 1921 with the Octant and the Astrolabe to a campaign of hydrography on the coasts of Algeria and Syria. Later assigned to the hydrographic mission in Indochina, these three units left Toulon in January 1922. The Hydrographic ship LAPEROUSE then worked on the coast and rivers of of Annam, Tonkin. At the beginning of World War II the ship was in reserve at Saigon. On 06/04/1940 it was called into service to support a group of minesweepers in Indochina and then scuttled by its commander on 03/12/1945 in Cantho.AMHYDRO, 1919-1945, LAPEROUSE see also L’Indochine-Les évènements en Extrême Orientan
Note: References describe this ship as the former Sans-Peur and it's sister ship Sans Souci, as laid down but then put on hold in the Penhoët yards in 1940, and then launched in 1941. Powered by diesel six-cylinder Sulzer developing a total power of 4200 hp and driving two propellers, entering service in May 1947 under the name of Hydrographer aviso Laperouse A750 and the Hydrographer aviso Beautemps Beaupré F751. Another describes similar circumstances. Prior to the outbreak of hostilities the Sans Peur (Fearless) was laid down with 3 sister ships as a seaplane tanker. Later after the war it commissioned as the Lapérouse A750, it's sister ship was Beautemps Beaupré A751, ex Sans Souci. ATF40 - Armée de Terre Française 1940-Les avisos also Seaplane tender/tanker (?) (called Sans Peur) of 1350 tons. The construction began in 1938, refit 1945-1946, commissioned as Lapérouse in 1947. Ship served as the aviso with assignment in the Hydrographic service as Lapérouse A750 (note the A for Auxillary-BH). AMHYDRO describes the ship entering the Hydrographic service as Lapérouse A750, then reassigned as Lapérouse F750 in 1955 until 1965 when it was refitted and placed back into service with a BH (batiments hydrographic) classification, re-entering service as Lapérouse A753. La Marine à Mururoa decribes both Lapérouse A750, and Lapérouse A753. (In both instances that article uses the spelling La Perouse-ex Sans Peur). Both the Lapérouse A750/F750 and the Beautemps Beaupré A750/F751 served as avisos and as hydrographic survey ships (auxillaries).
There is also record of the AVS Sans Peur being abandoned 19 Jun 1940 at Saint-Nazaire 42% built, then continued and finished by the Germans as SG4 Merkur (PC) Fantasque Time Line (FTL) : Marine Nationale losses also KRIEGSMARINE (GERMANY)-surrendered 5/1945, to France 5/1945 (5/1947 survey vessel La Pérouse)
  • 1941 (1965)-1977(?) Bâtiments hydrographes : "A753 La Pérouse ex-Sans-Peur, bâtiment hydrographique de 2ème classe (mission hydrographique en 1962, mis en réserve spéciale en 1967), A 678 La Coquille ex-Atlantic Delphin 447 t (ancien chalutier anglais transformé en 1965 pour la surveillance radiologique et l'étude biologique de la faune sous-marine"). From Les bâtiments du débarquement (1964)-La Marine à Mururoa. Lapérouse A750, Lapérouse F750 and Lapérouse A753 are all the same ship, originally laid down as the Sans-Peur, launched as the German fast escort SG4 Merkur. It was one of the 2 uncompleted 'seaplane tenders that survived the war and were subsequently re-tasked to the role of Hydrographer aviso in the Marine nationale.
  • 1 ship a Lapérouse a class (converted to P675 Arago)"
  • 3 ships of the "Lapérouse" class hydrographic survey ships (A791-793: Lapérouse, Laplace, Borda), commissioned 1988-1991)".

Non-Naval ships

  • 1916, La Perouse, Steamship, Built for Blue Star Line, Tonnage: 9,037 gross, Date of Fate:1955, Type of Fate:Broken up, Vessel Abstract: Ex ABERDEENSHIRE (L). Renamed TROJANSTAR-1929, renamed TROJAN STAR-1929. Steamship. La Perouse, Steamship, Troian Star (ex Trojanstar ex La Perouse), Lloyd's No: 85218, Official No: 148498, Call Sign: GKMW, Tw. Scr. 4 mast. D.F., Gross Tonnage: 9037, Built: 1916, By: Atel. & Ch. De France, Owners: Blue Star Line Ltd., Port of Registry: London, Flag: British La Perouse, Steamship, Built for Blue Star Line
  • 1951, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE, Motor vessel Tonnage:3,008 gross
  • 1951, CAPITAINE LA PEROUS, renamed BOUNTY-1979, 2,374 gross, Date of Fate:1981, Type of Fate:Broken up, Vessel Abstract: Ex NEGOSKY-1973, ex BAYARD-1972. Renamed TUI CAKAU-1978, renamed CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE-1979, renamed BOUNTY-1979.
  • 1959, La Pérouse, Oil barge, spent 34 years transporting oil from Marseille to Lyon and Chalons-sur-Saône. Its work as an oil barge finished at the end of the 20th century, when Anthony Hawkins, creator of one of Lyon’s well-known night spots La Marquise, bought the vessel with the plan to turn it into a trendy events space. La Plateforme is moored right in the centre of the city, on the Rhône’s left bank, and it opened its doors for business in 2005. <ref>{{cite web | url =http://en.businessclass.rhonealpes-tourisme.com/777-seminars-on-board-la-plateforme/ | title =Seminars on board La Plateforme | date = 17 May 2010 | work =| publisher = | accessdate = 2010-20-11}}</ref>The oil barge La Perouse, Lyon Photo showing name plate on hull in Lyon Contemporary photo showing name "LA PEROUSE" on hull (stern and bow with name plate on Gunwales) Stern gunwale nameplate Bow gunwale nameplate
  • 1962, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE Motor vessel Tonnage: 8,855 gross, Owner: SOFRANA UNILINES NEW ZEALAND LTD. Date of Fate: 1984, Type of Fate:Broken up
  • 1973, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE Tonnage:4,694 gross Owner:SOFRANA UNILINES NEW ZEALAND LTD.
  • 1980, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE Cargo ship, IMO No: 7928225, Tonnage: 4,236 gross, DWT: 4,446 Draft: 5.35, Engine Type: Krupp MAK, Builder: Orskov (CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE 02-08-2001 LRF) Owner: Neptune Shipping chartered to Pacific Direct Line. CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE Cargo ship, IMO No: 7928225
  • 1983, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE, General cargo-container, IMO 8207408, Gross Tonnage 2.024 tons, Summer DWT 1.685 tons, Builder LARSEN & SONNERS SKIBSVAERFT NYKOBING - DENMARK. (2009 Jan 14 Renamed DON ALFONSO SR. under the PHILIPPINES Flag)
  • 1988, CGM la Perouse, Gross tonnage: 36.389, DWT : 42.513, Flag: Panama, Dimensions : 228,85 x 32,20 x 12,40 m, Shipbuilder : Samsung Shipbuilding & Heavy Industries Co, Ex names : CGM la Perouse, 1988. La Fontaine, 1991/12. Ville de la Fontaine, 1992/05. CGM la Perouse, 1993-1998. Cap Verde, 1998/03. Sea Cheetah, 2000/03. (current name MSC MARIA LAURA, 2000/11, Mamitsa - IMO 8412388). CGM la Perouse
  • 2006, Delmas La Perouse, Container Ship , Launched as STADT PAPENBURG, IMO: 9348194, Gross tonnage: 18,017, DWT : 23,780
  • 2010, CMA CGM LA PEROUSE, Container ship (since 01-09-2010), IMO 9454412 - Callsign FLTH, Gross tonnage :144462 (since 01-09-2010), DWT : 142000, Flag : France (since 01-09-2010) CMA CGM LA PEROUSE
  • 2010, De Laperouse, Dredger, IMO: 9462603, Call Sign: LXXD, DWT: 5440, Flag: Luxembourg. De Laperouse.
  • (CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE-unknown further detail) 13 Dec 1987 whilst berthed at Noumea, was rammed by ACT 9, making a hole 10 feet by 13 feet in No. 2 hold. CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE sank but was re-floated, discharged and temporarily repaired. She proceeded to Auckland for permanent repair, coming out of Calliope Dock 14 Jan 1988)
  • N/A, CAPITAINE LA PEROUSE Cargo ship Tonnage:2024 gross

Felix (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to create (separate) article on the naming conventions of Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse

Due to the issues (described above) regarding the name of Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse (Lapérouse/Lapéyrouse/La Pérouse) I propose the development of a separate article on this matter exploring and detailing the matter detailing the early use of the name by Jean-François de Galaup thru to modern times. I believe it is sufficiently important to document both the early use of the name by Jean-François de Galaup, later variations of Lapérouse/Lapéyrouse/La Pérouse and the application of those variations. There is some considerable confusion in the historic record and in both formal and informal historic and contemporary documentation. The article will need to remain focussed entirely upon encyclopaedic-worthy detail and I suggest it should seek to explain the anomalies and ambiguities that exist both in the historic record and in the contemporary use of the name. The article should not seek to determine which name should be used in a contemporary context to describe Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse as Lapérouse/Lapéyrouse/La Pérouse. Rather, my proposal is to describe and detail the name and the variations that have been used, and to document those reasons from a historical perspective. Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse is a notable person of the Age of Enlightenment, a notable French naval figure, a notable explorer and global navigator and his name has been applied to a large number of geographic sites. His name has also been applied to a large number of naval vessels using the name Lapérouse and an even greater number of merchant vessels using both the variations of Lapérouse and also in the greater number of merchant vessels, La Pérouse. If anyone is interested please leave some comments here.Felix (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Aboard the 'La Pérouse'

To Mr Felix - Among the photographs which it seems that you looked at, you would have probably seen this of the whole crew on the deck of the ship F 750 and, at the top of the photograph, the ribbon which seamen of the French Navy wear around their cap with the name of their ship. One can read 'La Pérouse'. The Captain is in the middle of the front rank. Future admiral, he was a friend of mine. He wrote two relations : "Le La Pérouse at Mururoa" and "Le La Pérouse à Mayotte". One can suppose that the Captain knew the name of the ship which he was in command of. I dare to say that nobody has a better knowledge of the matter than I do. Disorder and confusion between the spelling 'La Pérouse or 'Lapérouse' did not reigned before 1839, more than fifty years after Jean-François de La Pérouse disappearing. I know the deep reasons of it, and that permits me to say that all compilations of supports of the name Lapérouse, dating from the end of the 19th century up to now, have no value as a proof as far as the name of the navigator is concerned. Jacques Thomas (talk) 08:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

La Pérouse in the French Navy

If I may advise you, please, search for 'La Pérouse Cols bleus' on Google. 'Cols bleus' is an official magazine and it is easy to see that the name La Pérouse is now almost always spelled in its right form. I had made a long historical study of the matter. Jacques Thomas (talk) 02:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

F750/A750/A753 seems to be the ship with th most ambiguity about it's name. The article I mentioned from article from Le LA PEROUSE dans "Cols bleus" en 1954 is quite clearly describing Lapérouse. If your friend was at one time the Captain of that ship he should certainly have known the name of the ship. In any other universe that would seem clear cut but again here it does not. There are a considerable number of Marine nationale references to F750/A750/A753 as Lapérouse. I am wondering if your friend had a particular point of view on this matter and put his foot down and decreed his crew should wear the name La Pérouse on their cap ribbons. I assume this is Admiral Fournery that you are referring to. Absurd as it seems to suggest a Captain of the ship and a future Admiral in the French navy may have had issues with the name of his ship it may be that this is one of the exceptions to what would otherwise seem to be a rather unlikely situation. Either he was giving the ship a different name or the Marine nationale has seemingly changed it's mind on the name since he was sailing it. Which ever it presents a truly extraordinary story. For your own reference I turned up this citation in -Bibliographie de l'Océanie pour 1967 R. Heyum, Journal de la Société des océanistes, Year 1968 Volume 24, Issue 24, pp.167-236 Fournery, J. Une mission hydrographique exceptionnelle : le La Pérouse à Muruoa [en 1962]. (Revue maritime, Paris, n° 245, 1967, p. 869-891, ill., carte.). You mentioned a crew shot on the deck of F750. I recall viewing several more formal crew shots with the crew on the main deck wearing their whites and assembled with the ships officers, no doubt including their Captain. The versions I viewed earlier did not display the cap ribbon across the top but I have had a quick look since and successfully located some versions that are showing that cap ribbon across the top of the group photo.. I also found a number of photos at that show crew with La Pérouse caps, in particular, par Sirot Michel le Jeu 12 Mar - 8:30, on that page. The photo you are referring to showing the ships crew and the cap ribbon is to be found here and here.
Further from a Lapérouse crew member "Pour le nom de La Pérouse, je l'ai vu écrit des deux façons : en deux mots La Pérouse sur notre ruban légendé, en un seul sur la tape de bouche des canons. A chacun de choisir." (It was written in one way on our cap ribbons - (La Pérouse) - and in one word (Lapérouse) on the ships guns). It seems with that ship it went both ways. This is a perfect example of the ambiguity that surrounded the name in 1962.
Apparently in 1954 Cols bleus thought F750/A750 was called Lapérouse. I also note that currently Cols bleus seems to prefer the use of "'La Pérouse'" for that ship and others bearing the name, even when describing vessels clearly commissioned and in service, such as Lapérouse A791. Recent net publications by Cols bleus describe this ship as La Pérouse when clearly that current serving ship is most certainly called Lapérouse. As an example I offer LA PÉROUSE (HYDRO) par le Moelannais le Mer 5 Mar - 20:02 There they show a photo of Lapérouse A791, title the page La Pérouse (HYDRO) yet the caption on the photo describes Lapérouse A791 as le batiment hydrographique de 2nd classe Lapérouse. I wonder if Cols bleus are a bit confused. Hard not to be. Certainly it would be known the editors of Cols bleus that BH Lapérouse A791 is called Lapérouse.
The ICES ship data centre describes: 35LA LAPEROUSE <country>France</country><platformclass>Naval vessel</platformclass><commissioned>1946</commissioned><decommissioned>1977</decommissioned><pennant>A753</pennant><notes>Name corrected from LA PEROUSE to LAPEROUSE. Hydrographic survey vessel. Siezed by Germany in 1940 and named Merkur. Recovered in 1945 and renamed La Perouse in 1946 with pennant F750.ICES ship data list
To add further confusion is the web-page showing the ships 'badge' Lapérouse is the name featured on these. This page has some good images of the ship as portrayed in the postal series describing the La Pérouse and commemorating the Terres Australis and Antarctic mission. I note the person who has posted the image has corrected the error describing the ship as the German commissioned Jupiter instead of the correct name Munkur (in pencil-par Jean-Léon le Mar 27 Oct 2009 - 11:56).
This Cols Bleus web page shows the Lapérouse A791 in dry dock with it's name written by the crew in rope on the deck and the name also displayed on the ships gangway. I have seen other such photo's showing A791 at a dock with a Lapérouse emblazoned gangway in place. At least they seem to stick to just the one name with that ship. There seems to be no confusion apparent with the current ship, ii is also apparent that Cols Bleus currently prefer to use La Pérouse although in the past it seems they did not or used both.
I think it would be appropriate to now add the further naval ship detail to the Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse article as per that below: Felix (talk) 18:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Vessels named in his honour (add further naval vessels)

Current serving ships

  • The Lapérouse class are Hydrographic survey ships of the French Navy. Three ships are currently active in the French Navy. One further ship of the class has been transferred to Patrol service duties (action de l'Etat en mer (AEM)).
  • The Lapérouse A791 is a current serving ship of the Hydrographic and Oceanographic Service of the French Navy. (Bâtiment hydrographique de deuxième classe (BH) - Service Hydrographique et Océanographique de la Marine-SHOM) is based at Brest, DCN Lorient. The ship was laid down on 11 June 1985, launched on 15 November 1985 and entered service in the Marine nationale as Lapérouse A791 on 20 April 1988.[1][2][3]

Historic ships

  • Laperouse, 1830-1875. The first ship to bear the explorers name was a 20 gun brig of 33.60m.[4]
  • Lapérouse, 1877-1898, served as a defensive cruiser in the French Navy. The Lapérouse was built at Brest, with work commencing in 1885, launched in 1877 and was subsequently wrecked in 1898 in the East Indies. The unarmoured cruisers of the Lapérouse class were wooden hulled ships with Iron beams. These ships had plough bows with a forecastle, a displacement of 2363 tons, a speed of 15 Knots and had a compliment of 264 sailors. Armament was fifteen 5.5 inch M1870M guns later replaced in Primauget with Quick Firing Conversions. Each ship also had eight 1 pounder revolvers.[5][6]
  • Lapérouse, 1919-1945, 63m, with a displacement of 781 tons.[7] Built in Brest in 1918 as a refrigerated transport type Coëtlogon (comme transport frigorifique du type Coëtlogon.). It was cut in half and lengthened by 12 meters to allow the ship to be converted to the hydrographic service role. The ship departed from Brest on 1 April 1921 with the Octant and the Astrolabe to a campaign of hydrography on the coasts of Algeria and Syria. Later assigned to the hydrographic mission in Indochina, these three units left Toulon in January 1922. The Hydrographic ship Lapérouse then worked on the coast and rivers of of Annam, Tonkin. At the beginning of World War II the ship was in reserve at Saigon. On 6 April1940 it was called into service to support a group of minesweepers in Indochina and then subsequently scuttled by its commander on 3 December 1945 in Cantho.[8] [9]
  • Lapérouse F750, 1947-1977, (also known as La Pérouse, also carried the pennant A750 and A753). The ship was first laid down in 1937 as the AVS Sans-Peur, a marine aviation seaplane tender/tanker. Work ceased during hostilities with the ship 42% finished and it was abandoned on 19 June 1940 at Saint-Nazaire. The ship was taken over by the occupying Kriegmarine and the Germans completed the ship and 3 more of the same class laid down in the same yard. The Sans-Peur was launched as the SG4 Merkur and entered service in 1943 as a fast escort (escorteurs rapides). In 1945 the SG4 Merkur was surrendered in a reasonably intact condition and subsequently refitted then re-launched in 1947 as Lapérouse F750, a batiment hydrographique aviso hydrographic survey vessel.[10][11][12] The vessel was assigned to the Mururoa test program in 1962 and later taken out of service, re-fitted and re-assigned in 1967 as Lapérouse F753, a bâtiment hydrographique de 2ème classe. The ship was subsequently withdrawn from service and placed in reserve then de-commissioned in 1977.[13][14][15][16] Felix (talk) 18:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Lapérouse / La Pérouse

At a minimum, there should be something in the article about the variant spellings, to explain why there are so many places and features named for 'La Perouse'.
—WWoods (talk) 20:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree, if for no other reason than to verify that it is not discontinuous spelling within the articles. However as Jacques Thomas has gone to some trouble to explain there are some people who feel very strongly that La Pérouse is the correct spelling of the name. Others including most of the current French official Museum and cultural bodies, the Ministry of Defence and the French navy apparently think it should be Lapérouse. Now some that have previously used La Pérouse wish to use Lapérouse and others who have previously used Lapérouse now wish to use La Pérouse. It is enough to make your head spin. I will try and draft a suitable disambiguation style paragraph for the article but I fear it will open a can of worms and the paragraph will soon blossom both in volume and controversy. Hence my recommendation for a separate article detailing the history of the matter and explaining the variations used in both the historical account of the person Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse and also the geographic places, ships and other places of notoriety named after him . There is I think sufficient material and suitable references available, even from the discussion material above. However if Jacques Thomas wants to make a significant contribution to it he must realise that it is no good just mentioning people and ideas, they must be accurately and thoroughly sourced and properly cited. For instance despite Jacques Thomas's undoubted sincerity and commitment it is no good stating that The Association Salomon support the naming convention of La Pérouse when they publish a considerable body of material using the name Lapérouse, or citing the president of the Société de Géographie as supporting the name La Pérouse when that organisations publications use Lapérouse. It is not acceptable content for a Wikipedia article if it cannot be verified with a cite to an acceptable source. It must be clearly understood that except under exceptional circumstances Wikipedia:No original research is an absoutuely binding Wikipedia editing requirement. It must also be understood that if a place or a ship has been named one way or the other it is what ever it is, we at WP cannot change it and must only document the facts as they are or have been as accurately as possible. Felix (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Ship Laperouse (the first one)

Is there anyone who can offer up some information on the first ship named after Laperouse.

  • Laperouse, 1830-1875. The first ship to bear the explorers name was a 20 gun brig of 33.60m

I can only find the one solitary cite to this and it is a bit vague. Navire "La pérouse" F750 - Le premier fut un brick de 33,60 m à 20 canons (1830-1875) being from a French Philatelic Society webpage that has indicated a few errors in detail on some other matters related to the subject. (ie previous names of the ship F750) Felix (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

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  1. ^ (in French) "Hompage". Service Hydrographique et Océanographique de la Marine. Retrieved 8 October 2010.
  2. ^ (in French) "?". defense.gouv.fr. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Text "http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/content/download/44385/442990/file/Laperouse%20A791.pdf" ignored (help)[dead link]
  3. ^ (in French) "?". defense.gouv.fr. Retrieved 8 October 2010.
  4. ^ "Navire "La pérouse" F750 - Le premier fut un brick de 33,60 m à 20 canons (1830-1875)". philateliedestaaf.fr. Retrieved 24 November 2010.
  5. ^ "Armorique - March 1862". battleships-cruisers.co.uk. Retrieved 8 October 2010.
  6. ^ "Lapérouse". worlnavalships.com. Retrieved 8 October 2010.
  7. ^ [Bâtiment hydrographiques-La Flotte de guerre française en 1945 "Liste des bâtiments en service au 1er janvier 1945. Réalisation Guillaume Rueda - source "Flottes de Combat 1944/45""]. 1944/45. Retrieved 25 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)
  8. ^ ["AMHYDRO, 1919-1945, LAPEROUSE". Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
  9. ^ %5d "L'Indochine-Les évènements en Extrême Orientan". postedeschoufs.com. Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
  10. ^ "Annexe 40-7-2, La flottille capturée, Les navires français capturés par les Allemands en 194". 1940lafrancecontinue.org. 2010-18-11. Retrieved 26 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  11. ^ Fantasque Time Line (FTL) "Marine Nationale losses". 1940lafrancecontinue.org. Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
  12. ^ %5d "KRIEGSMARINE (GERMANY)-surrendered 5/1945, to France 5/1945 (5/1947 survey vessel La Pérouse)". navypedia.org. Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
  13. ^ "La Marine à Mururoa". netmarine.net. Retrieved 2010-19-11. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  14. ^ [article from Le LA PEROUSE dans "Cols bleus" en 1954 "Lapérouse F750,". Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
  15. ^ "French Avisos 1940". Retrieved 24 November 2010.
  16. ^ ["Sans Souci class, AVS Sans Peur abandoned 19 Jun 40 Saint-Nazaire 42% built, continued and finished by the Germans as SG4 Merkur (PC)". Retrieved 24 November 2010. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)
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