Talk:Jayhawker

Jayhawker vs. Jayhawk

It's historically and more frequently jayhawkers (rather than jayhawks) if you're referring to the abolitionist movement. flux.books 20:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Tagged for Neutrality and No References

I came across this page looking for more information on the Jayhawkers of the Civil War. Unfortunately, this page is poor all-around. First off, there are no sources for any of the information. Secondly, the entire article, besides the one sentence lead, seems to be written with the purpose of negatively portraying the Jayhawkers. I'm not saying they didn't committ atrocities, but the article makes some very significantly negative claims without sourcing any of them. Further, the article seems to be explaining away atrocities committed by the other side as though saying "the Jayhawkers started it!" Saying Quantrill's Raids were in retaliation is also original research until sourced, so I removed that. Hopefully, someone who has editted here can work on this. However, I've tagged the article to watch. Once I get caught up in my other articles, I'll try to come back and work on this. --Jdcaust 15:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I too found this page in research and there are no sources. Also, the neutrality is obviously biased, as vague mentions of attacks upon Missouri by "jayhawkers" are made with no sources, references, or historical mention elsewhere found on the internet. Also, the various meanings of a jayhawker should be divided - whether its the civil war troop, the raiders from the border wars, or the current usage today of any citizen born in the state of Kansas. I would say this page be removed/merged with the Jayhawk page. 71.218.2.223 (talk) 09:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Jameskeagie

Here's an article in the NY Times that references the Kansas-Missouri conflict: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/23/sports/ncaafootball/23border.html?ex=1196485200&en=f4b8641b5c27b291&ei=5123&partner=BREITBART —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.212.130 (talk) 03:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the reference tag as there are now several sources and a reference listed (far from perfect, but the tag said there were none.) Since above and other contributors have cleaned up the major POV issues I propose to remove that tag as well. Red Harvest (talk) 18:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed POV tag, added tag for needing in-text citation to the listed references. The article probably would benefit from some reorganization as citations are made. Red Harvest (talk) 00:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Any page on the Jayhawkers that does not begin in 1854 is not complete. There had already been a two years of maurading and violence on Kansas soil before the fight moved into neighboring states. The Jayhawkers like many groups throughout history that could be labled as terrorists or freedom fighters (depending on who won), were a response to an oppressive force. There is an odd mythology that has been created by interested parties that suggest the Jayhawkers were the earliest belligerents of this conflict, it's simply not the case. Nor was it the case that the term Jayhawker was used exclusively after the Bleeding Kansas period, loosely organized groups used the term before it was seen in print. The person responsible for writing most of this article clearly has attempted to paint the Jayhawkers in a negative light, probably due to his/her own personal beliefs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.95.186 (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

1912 public domain jayhawk derivation

this was an easy google find 1912 puts it in public domain (hope it helps): Transcribed from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... / with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward.

Jayhawkers.-The origin of the term "Jayhawker" appears to be veiled in uncertainty. During the Civil war the members of the Seventh Kansas regiment, commanded by Col. C. R. Jennison, became known as "Jayhawkers," and probably from this fact the jayhawker came to be regarded by many as purely a Kansas institution. But there is plenty of evidence that the word was in use long before the outbreak of the Civil war. There is a report that it was used freely by the Texans during their struggle for independence, but this is not well authenticated.

In 1849 a party of gold seekers from Galesburg, Ill., bound overland for California, took the name of jayhawkers. Adjt.-Gen. Fox says the name was coined on the Platte river in that year, and offers the following explanation of how it was adopted: "Some kind of hawks, as they sail up in the air reconnoitering for mice and other small prey, look and act as though they were the whole thing. Then the audience of jays and other small but jealous and vicious birds sail in and jab him until he gets tired of show life and slides out of trouble in the lower earth. Now, perhaps this is what happens among fellows on the trail—jaybirds and hawks enact the same rôle, pro and con—out of pure devilment and to pass the hours of a long march. At any rate, ours was the crowd that created the word 'jayhawker' at the date and locality above stated . . . . So far as Kansas is concerned, the word was borrowed or copied; it is not a home product."

Mr. Fox is corroborated by U. P. Davidson and J. W. Brier, who were members of the Galesburg party, and by Alexander Majors in his "Seventy Years on the Frontier." On the overland journey these men were lost in Death Valley and narrowly escaped death by starvation. For many years the survivors held annual reunions, and John B. Colton had a large scrap-book filled with newspaper clippings relating to these "jayhawker" meetings.

John J. Ingalls, in the Kansas Magazine for April, 1872, in an article entitled "The Last of the Jayhawkers," says: "The Border Ruffians constructed the eccaleobion in which the jayhawk was hatched, and it broke the shell upon the reedy shores of the Marias des Cygnes. Its habits were not migratory, and for many years its habitat was southern Kansas." In the same article Mr. Ingalls says "The jayhawk is a creation of mythology. It was an early bird and caught many a Missouri worm."

The jayhawkers alluded to by Mr. Ingalls were the free-state men who composed the band commanded by James Montgomery (q. v.), which for some time in the territorial days kept the pro-slavery settlers of southeastern Kansas in a state of terror. In the winter of 1858-59 the term "jayhawker" was used by J. E. Jones of Fort Scott and George W. Cavert of Osawatomie in letters to the governor, and Gov. Medary made use of it in a communication to the legislature, under date of Jan. 11, 1859, when he said: "Capt. Brown was fortifying himself on Sugar creek and Montgomery claims that he can raise 200 men. Good citizens that formerly sustained these men begged to have something done to stop the 'jayhawking' as they termed it," etc.

Richardson, in his "Beyond the Mississippi" (p. 125), says that on June 13, 1858, he "found all the settlers justifying the 'jayhawkers,' a name universally applied to Montgomery's men, from the celerity of their movements and their habit of suddenly pouncing upon an enemy."

The Standard Dictionary defines a "jayhawker" as a "freebooting guerrilla," and applies the term to persons engaged in plundering their political enemies in Kansas and western Missouri during the territorial period. But that work does not make a proper distinction in its definition between the "border ruffians," who represented the cause of slavery, and the free-state men, who were the real jawhawkers.

Another story concerning the origin of the word attributes it to an Irishman named Patrick Devlin, who lived in the village of Osawatomie. According to this story, Devlin was seen entering the village in the fall of 1856 with his horse loaded down with plunder of various kinds, and a neighbor suggested that he must have been on a foraging excursion. Devlin answered that he had been jayhawking, and, when asked the meaning of the term, explained that in Ireland there is a bird called the jayhawk which always worries its prey before devouring it.

From all the evidence at hand the story of the gold seekers of 1849 seems to be the best established. However, through the operations of Montgomery's men and others like them, the "jayhawker" came to be regarded as purely a Kansas institution, and in more recent years the term "Jayhawker" is applied to Kansas men and products, much as the word "Hoosier" is applied to an Indianian, or the work "Buckeye" to a resident of the State of Ohio. Pages 21-22 from volume II of Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc. ... / with a supplementary volume devoted to selected personal history and reminiscence. Standard Pub. Co. Chicago : 1912. 3 v. in 4. : front., ill., ports.; 28 cm. Vols. I-II edited by Frank W. Blackmar. Transcribed July 2002 by Carolyn Ward. http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/1912/j/jayhawkers.html

208.100.203.25 (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Modern Connotation

Contrary to what the article says, native-born Kansans typically do not refer to themselves as "Jayhawkers" unless they are affiliated with the University of Kansas, whose mascot is the Jayhawk. Lrh442 (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Many Errors

This article contains numerous errors.

In territorial Kansas, the term was indeed adopted by militant bands, but to say they were abolitionist is slightly off the mark. They were affilitated with the free state cause. Some were abolitionist, but others were free-booters merely taking criminal advantage of the chaos.

During the territorial days there were clahses with armed groups of men from Missouri, but to describe these as clashes with "Missouri militia units" is misleading, as that implies conflict with forces of the Missouri government. Some of the free-state jayhawkers were also "men from Missouri".

Jayhakwer did not become synonymous with people of Kansas with the admission of Kansas as a free state. That came later, after the term began to be applied more broadly to military units from Kansas (e.g., Lane's Brigade) during the war.

There is no evidence Lane ever wore red gaiters.

The paragraph beginning with "Jayhakwer bands invaded Missouri" is a mess. The attack on Osceola was during the war, after the Bleeding Kansas days. The purpose of the attaack on Osecola was not to free slaves.

In regards to another comment presented herein, Quantrill's Lawrence Raid was indeed in retlatination for the earlier depradations of the jayhawkers. There are numerous references that support this, including the statements of Kansas' first governor in "The Kansas Conflict".

The original name of the KU football team was jayhakwers. Not until the 1950's did the term "Jayhawk" completely supplant "Jayhawkers" as the team moniker.

MOhistorybuff (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I revised the body of the article for accurary and references. The introducotry paragrpah still needs to be changed to correct the errors metnioned above.

MOhistorybuff (talk) 13:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Ornithology

Don't confuse history with myth. The earliest descriptions of the jayhawk as a bird (1859 newspaper article and the later, retrospective account by a 49er) were of a hawk that either was harried by, or haried and killed, jays. The earliest description of the "blue jay and sparrow hawk combination" I have seen is a newspaper account that described the change of the KU logo from the crow to the duck-like bird. The KU myth-making has little to do with the actual jayhawker term. Wouldn't it be better to simply delete the attempt at ornithology? MOhistorybuff (talk) 01:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is best to delete it. "Jayhawker" is in English language becuase of what happened in Territorial Kansas. In Territorial Kansas, "jayhawk" was a verb, not a bird. Years later, when the cartoon bird was invented as the KU mascot, KU (Blackmar?) apparenlty constructed the "jay and hawk combo" story. The KU promotional material really has no relevance is a discussion of the "jayhawker" term. It is covered in the "jayhawk" wiki entry, where it belongs. MOhistorybuff (talk) 02:56, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

You need consensus to remove cited material, not just reply to your own comment. Even the Devlin story talks about a bird in Ireland, which doesn't really exist in Ireland and is like a combination of the two birds mentioned. It's cited by several sources that that is the origin of the word, it's not about it's usage. Ryan2845 (talk) 14:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

All of the refences you provided in your most recent edit all arise from the same source, KU and the associated 1926 address by Blackmar. If you insist on inserting the "blue jay and sparrow hawk" business, I think it should be presented in the proper historical context. The Jayhawker term does not spring from a myth of a blue jay and sparrow hawk. The myth of the blue jay and sparrow hawk springs from the Jayhawker term of the Kansas Territorial period. As I have previously stated,I do not think the bird business merits any mention in this Jayhawker article. If anywhere, it should be preented in the Jayhawk article. However, if you insist on inserting it here, let's get it right. MOhistorybuff (talk) 16:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed Tag

The article has been substantially re-writte and many key statements are now referenced. There does not seem to be any major debate over the current version of the article. MOhistorybuff (talk) 03:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Partisan Edits 9/16/11

It looks like 70.167.38.1 drove by and did a lot of partisan pro-Jayhawk edits (and a few jokey ones). Unfortunately I don't want to just blanket revert them because a few of them seem to actually be undoing of partisan anti-Jayhawk items to more neutral terms. Unfortunately I know *nothing* of this subject (I came here to learn), so I don't feel comfortable undoing more than what was obviously a joke, but as it stands this article is seriously non-neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The quark (talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 September 2011 (UTC) o — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.195.0.206 (talk) 11:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Redlegs

The term 'Redlegs' is first used in the 'Cultural influence' section without an explanation of what it means. Redlegs (disambiguation) points to this article for the US civil war meaning. Can anyone add some description of the term, it's meaning & origin, etc? Cheers, Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayhawk = Kansan?

The reference (dictionary.com) says Jayhawker = Kansas, not Jayhawk = Kansan. I do a lot of reading, I don't recall seeing anything equating Jayhawk to all Kansans. Do you have an example of that usage? Can you find me a K-State alum that calls other alumni Jayhawks? MOhistorybuff — Preceding unsigned comment added by MOhistorybuff (talk • contribs) 02:57, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

No, you cannot find a K-State alumn that calls other K-State alums "Jayhawks" unless they're looking for a fight.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd say deleting referenced material and replacing it with your own unreferenced material and then protecting it by undoing any revision to the original material claiming editors need to see the talk page is non-encyclopedic behavior. In the best case scenario the original material should be left as is and discussed in the talk page before making unilateral changes. Since that best case scenario has already been forfeited, I made changes which reflect both the original statement, which is universally well referenced in modern references, while also including the added statement about people using the term to refer to those associated with KU. While I agree that the more common usage is for people associated with the University of Kansas, but it is still used to reference native born Kansans. Anecdotally, in everyday conversation I've heard native born Kansans with no association whatsoever to KU called Jayhawkers, and yes even people who are alumni of KSU and Wichita State, despite it sometimes being to their great chagrin as they themselves may exclusively associate the term to KU. That doesn't negate the fact that the term is still used by some for any native born Kansan. Kmanblue (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Union vs Confederate Policy

The article contained this paragraph: Jennison's court martial and dismissal from the Union forces in June 1865 illustrate, however, how the Union army disciplined against excesses among pro-Union partisans (or post-surrender); while, on the other hand, the Confederacy collaborated with some of the pro-slavery Bushwhackers and paramilitary partisans on the Confederate side. One such example was a component of Sterling Price's invasion of Missouri in September 1864, when he collaborated with Missouri Bushwhackers, culminating in depredations such as the massacre at Centralia, MO. Evidence shows that, while many Confederate commanders did not discipline their paramilitary marauders, they did not condone the civilian-on-civilian murders either. The CSA officer whose company (about 100 CSA troops) joined Quantrill's gang (about 350) for the horrific Lawrence Massacre in August 1863, forbade his soldiers from participating in the killing once he witnessed the civilian slaughter--which ended in 150 civilian men and boys shot on the steps of their homes and the town burned. [26]

I find this overly simplistic, inadequately referenced, and of questionable accuracy. The Jennison court martial is poor evidence for any general Union policy against excesses. As stated in Starr's Jennison's Jayhawkers, policy and perceptions were not uniform over the course of the war. ...the winter of 1864-1865 was not the winter of 1861-1862, and conduct condoned and even applauded in the first winter of the war evoked a reaction of shock and disapproval three years later.MOhistorybuff (talk) 03:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)MOhistorybuff

I still think it would be easiest and best to delete the above paragraph. However, if there is insistence on getting into he policy of the two sides regarding the excesses of the fighting along the border, there is a need to provide more perspective than what is provided in the above paragraph.67.45.114.93 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:56, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

There paragraph cited above simply does not have the accuracy or documentation to support keeping it: 1. How can Jennison's court martial be evidence of Union military views on pro-union partisans? Jennison was a commissioned officer in the Union army. 2. What is with the reference? This is not a document I can find anywhere. Is it even a document? Or is it merely something you thought you heard a panel of "experts" say? Who was on the panel? What was the date/location of the discussion? 3. What do CSA views on Quantrill have to do with the subject? It is out of place in a discussion of what the origin of the jayhawker term was, and what it meant.MOhistorybuff (talk) 01:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)MOhistorybuff

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