Talk:Jamie Wallis

Identity

How does Wallis identify. There is no mention of this at all. Sirhissofloxley (talk) 09:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Re Sirhissofloxley Wallis has not referred to themselves as any particular pronouns. As such, it is proper conduct to refer to them with they/them/theirs pronouns. Until they state otherwise, this would be the best course of action Quinby (talk) 09:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

It is absolutely not at all right to do. To use such non standard pronouns immediately implies to most readers that the subject has taken a particular stance wanting their use, which he absolutely has not and I very much doubt he will. It could be regarded as a personal attack on his character to do so, deliberately intended to harm his career. Sandpiper (talk) 09:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The only statement we have is the one he put out, which only says that he "wants to be" trans. We should keep things as they are until it becomes clear precisely what he wants to be. Iffy★Chat -- 09:19, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

He identifies as a transman, he has hitherto identified as a man. It is entirely INAPPROPRIATE to change from he/him unless he requests otherwise 81.110.162.4 (talk) 09:29, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Per this BBC article - "The MP is the first to come out as transgender, and has not yet stated what his preferred pronouns are". Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:36, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Actually to be clear and reading his statement... I'm not at all clear if he was a cis man who is intending to transition to a transwoman... or he was born a cis woman who has already been living as a transman and is now 'outing' himself.

Until he clarifies and makes a pronoun preference clear I think it would be best to stick to the he/him pronouns 81.110.162.4 (talk) 09:39, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

This user is on IP but I feel I should correct this. A trans person assigned male at birth is not a trans man. A trans man is someone assigned female at birth who is a man and lives as a man. Wallis hasn't disclosed what his gender is yet. It would be disingenuous to assume any way at the moment. Vulture (a.k.a. Transandrosupport) (talk) 10:31, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey guys- what idiots have been switching pronouns on this page? That practically amounts to homophopic bullying, to try to force someone to identify with non standard pronouns, which imply a stance he has not at all expressed. Sandpiper (talk) 09:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed... its entirely inappropriate when he hasn't stated a preference. 81.110.162.4 (talk) 09:46, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I think we should assume good faith on those we disagree with. The essential problem we have is a WP:SYNTH one (hopefully this issue is short-lived). Iffy★Chat -- 09:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is. I saw a link to a style guide which I havnt read in detail, but which seemed to say trans people should always be referred to as 'they'. If thats correct, then the style guide itself is a big problem, because wikipedia is itself expressing an opinion by using non standard pronouns which themselves make inferences about a person. We might use 'they' as a courtesy to someon who asked to be so referred, but to do so automatically is to take a cmpaigning stance and force article subjects to do the same. Thats really bad and potentially libellous I would have thought. Sandpiper (talk) 09:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

2022-03-30 12pm UTC - via twitter - "For the time being, I will continue to present as I always have and will use he/him/his pronouns." AsmodeanUnderscore (talk) 11:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

(my bad that should be 2022-03-30 11am UTC, i forgot about daylight savings again) AsmodeanUnderscore (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

This morning, after reading Wallis's original statement, I made an edit changing the he/him pronouns in the article to they/them. I did this because, in the absence of any information about his gender identity other than that he is not a cisgender man, it was wrong to continue using he/him pronouns on the article and essentially guessing that he would continue using those, especially with sources including Pink News using they/them at the time I made the edit. You seem to have some kind of gripe with gender neutral pronouns but no, they are not "non-standard", they are not "a stance" or "a courtesy" and they are definitely not "potentially libelous"; they are a set of pronouns that infer no gendered information about a person and are therefore suitable in the absence of information about a person's gender. So no, I'm not an idiot and I should think that I'm not a homophobic bully either since I am gay. JayAmber (talk) 20:24, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Wallis has now officially identified himself with he/him pronouns. See the link below

https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/press-releases/follow-up-statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp Quinby (talk) 11:02, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

'Wallis has not yet stated what his preferred personal pronouns will be.[17]'

What is the justification for wikipedia pressuring a public figure to take a stance by including a statement like this in an article about them?Sandpiper (talk) 10:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Current event template added

To try to deter repeated pronoun edit wars, I've added this to the article. Only to be here for the next day or so.

AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 12:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Given that there isn't any event currently occurring and Wallis has explicitly addressed his pronouns in a statement, I've removed the current event template. To address concerns about potential edit warring, I've added an invisible comment to the first pronoun in the article and added {{Article pronouns}} to the top of this talk page. GreenComputer (talk) 14:44, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

balance

Not altogether happy about the balance of this article. When I first read it, it looks just like it might have been written by his political opponents highlighting everything he has done wrong. Maybe theres no response to be made, but it comes across very negative, with the only response coming now with his breaking statement saying he has experienced blackmail, rape, and presumably a rather difficult personal life. Sandpiper (talk) 12:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The trading standards and sugar daddy stories are somewhat well-sourced and notable, esp as to his suitability to be an MP. As is the driving offence. We are likely giving them undue weight; perhaps "his company had 30-something trading standards complaints" (minus legal action), "he was convicted of a motoring offence, and made off", and "he was co-owner of a website that offered sugar daddy services". Or something of that ilk. Solipsism 101 (talk) 15:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

There are certain facts relating to his recent activities that are not in the article because they were not revealed in the press. In particular, the circumstances of his motoring offence are not clear from press reports because the location of the crash was not on the same road where he committed the offence of which he's been convicted. Hence "he was convicted of a motoring offence, and made off" comes nowhere near covering it. Under the circumstances, he might well consider himself lucky. Deb (talk) 15:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The article seems fairly balanced at the time of writing. I don't think we've heard the last of this chap though. Obviously BLP rules apply here, so we need to be cautious. --Ef80 (talk) 16:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Pronouns in intro

@Sandpiper that's the thing, they aren't the normal pronouns Cajmo (talk) 11:42, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Gender status

While his own statement said he's trans, it immediately followed it up by saying that it would be more accurate to say that he "want[s] to be", which reads to me like he's saying he is not trans. This article, and a number of other sources, seem to have inferred from his statement that he is trans, and yet he remains a he. At no point has he actually said he's trans as far as I can see, rather that he's suffering from gender dysphoria. Rambo Apocalypse (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Has he actually said specifically he's suffering from gender dysphoria? Emeraude (talk) 10:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes. "I’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and I’ve felt this way since I was a very young child". Rambo Apocalypse (talk) 00:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

As you point out above, just before those quoted words he says: "I’m trans. Or to be more accurate, I want to be." Even if our view is that we should just take Wallis's word for everything, which may be unwise after the judge at his trial said he "didn't find the defendant credible", his own immediately clarified or corrected statement says that he wants to be trans, not that he is trans. Readers new to this article reading our statement that he's "the first openly transgender MP" and seeing that he presents as male might conclude that he's biologically female and has transitioned, but there's nothing to suggest this is the case. The claim about him being transgender therefore looks odd, and does not follow from his own statements. It would be better to omit the claim and just quote his words on the subject, and also give relevant details from the car crash, in which according to the BBC article we use as a source he was "wearing a black leather mini-skirt and high heels" and "appeared to be wearing make-up, his eyelids were dark, his lips were red, his cheeks were bronzed, and he had red nail polish on his toes". Readers can draw their own conclusions about all this. Beorhtwulf (talk) 17:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Complaints about his dodgy companies.

The sources in the article are clear that hundreds of complaints were made, but somebody had edited the article to say 70. I think this is wrong, please keep checking the article for such edits. ♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ^{♥ Talk ♥} 20:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

"Women's clothing"

I don't have a problem with giving detail, provided that it's sourced, but I wonder where we are going with the "women's clothing" issue. What Wallis was wearing, although relevant to his claim that he wishes to change gender, is not directly relevant to his driving. Wearing women's clothing isn't a reliable indicator of a sexual preference, nor is it something that should be spoken of as if it were a reprehensible thing for a man to do. So I'm a bit doubtful about the merits of including exact details of what he was wearing when he caused the accident. Deb (talk) 12:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

It is relevant to the gender issue as you point out, but more importantly it was key to his defence in court, as it was at the heart of his (unsuccessful) attempt to justify fleeing the scene. This is reflected in coverage of the case in serious journalistic sources, i.e. not in tabloids that would just look to report lurid details out of prurience. See for example the Guardian's sub-headline "Transgender MP said he fled because he was wearing women’s clothes and feared he would be assaulted" [1]. I've seen similarly prominent mention of his clothing at the time of the crash in reporting by the Telegraph and the BBC, again because it was relevant and discussed during Wallis's trial. I can't see that we are drawing any inferences about sexual preferences here, nor are we speaking of his clothing choices as reprehensible or indeed attaching any moral significance to them. I hope this provides some reassurance that the clothing issue is both relevant to the case and reflective of how it is covered by reliable sources. Beorhtwulf (talk) 21:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I wasn't aware that he had used it in his defence. Deb (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)