Talk:Jacques-René de Brisay, Marquis de Denonville

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Denonville expedition

Why would anyone want to commemorate the Denonville expedition? This was certainly not a positive highlight of history. Regarding the medal, is this section really notable? BC (talk) 17:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

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In 1937 they had apparently not yet invented the concept of Political Correctness. ;) This was the first documented instance of europeans coming into the Genessee valley and thus significant to the region's history (as noted by the numerous historic markers in the area relating to this expedition). The medal is notable because available images of the M. de Denonville are hard to find and because the medal shows the route and dates of the expedition. The attacks on what are today the villages of Victor, East Bloomfield (E B), Lima (L), and Honeoye Falls are noted along with the paths near Mendon Ponds (M P) and Irondequoit Creek (I C) as well as the fort's location at what is now Sea Breeze amusement park on Irondequoit Bay. I guess one might say - a picture is worth 1,000 words.

Also, should the last two sentences be removed and added to Frontenac's page? "Frontenac had been arranging a new plan of attack to mollify the effects of the Iroquois in North America and realized the true danger the imprisonment of the Sachems created. He located the 13 surviving leaders and they returned with him to New France that October, 1698." I can see they relate to Denonville's actions so perhaps they do belong.

Rereading this entry about Denonville, it comes across that he was dishonorable and took serveral unwarrented, agressive actions. This is not an accurate impression when compared with documents from the time, including journals of both Denonville and the English Gov. Dongan. Denonville was largely acting in a responsive fashion to actions by Dongan who was inciting the indians and pushing the borders while feeding Denonville double-speak. DeYoung9 (talk) 22:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

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I have an original copy of Francis Parkmans' book, Count Frontenac and New France under Louis XIV (published in 1877), (see the Reference Materials below) which includes transcribed text from, and detailed references to, the original sources. I also have a copy of Denonville's memoir's from the time which include copies of letters sent and received.

I will use these as a basis to update the article shortly. DeYoung9 (talk) 12:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Reference Materials

The primary source material dealing with Denonville’s tenure as governor general, most of it contained in Archives des Colonies, C11A, F3, and B series, is to be found in the Archives Nationales, Paris. The PAC has microfilm copies and transcripts, as does the AQ. Other documents are to be found at the ASQ and at the New York State Archives in Albany. Transcripts of the latter are contained in NYCD (O’Callaghan and Fernow). The Baron de Lahontan’s self-extolling account of events, New Voyages (Thwaites), was written after a lapse of several years and has to be treated sceptically.

There is one published biography of Denonville, by Thérèse Prince-Falmagne, Un marquis du grand siècle, Jacques René de Brisay de Denonville, gouverneur de la Nouvelle-France, 1637–1710 (Montréal, [1965]), valuable for the information it provides on Denonville’s antecedents. Among the more useful articles in learned journals are Jean Leclerc, “Denonville et ses captifs iroquois,” RHAF, XIV (1960–61), 545–58; XV (1961–62), 41–58; “Le rappel de Denonville,” RHAF, XX (1966–67), 380–408; and W. J. Eccles, “Denonville et les galériens iroquois,” RHAF, XIV (1960–61), 408–29.

The period of Denonville’s tenure of office in Canada is discussed in all the histories of the period but the earlier ones are marred by prejudice and slipshod scholarship. The “established” version is well presented in Parkman, Count Frontenac and New France (1877). A “revisionist” interpretation is provided in Eccles, Canada under Louis XIV.

W. J. Eccles

I'm having real troubles with references. I've read the relevant sections of Parkman (or at least tried to) and can find nothing re: the 50 chiefs being captured. There is mention of Neutrals and others (e.g. who were fishing nearby) being captured and imprisoned under pretext of a feast at Fort Frontenac supposedly to prevent them revealing the existence of Denonville's approaching army, and who were sent away, many as galley slaves, but that's it. Parkman says 51 were captured, which does not include about 150 women and children. I know that other publications such as "A Military History of Canada" by Desmond Morton, talk about the chiefs (Morton says 40) but why wouldn't Parkman include this? Maybe I'm blind (Parkman is difficult to read). If the original contributor of this information could provide the references, it would be appreciated. BC_{talk to me} 00:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

In reading through the descriptions of the Native Americans/Indians' attacks, I find lack of references a little blaring. I think it's also hard to read this at face value, because history was kept by the literate...which were the European settlers/French. If we don't have a Native accounting of events, shouldn't the retelling of the history on wikipedia be written with a certain degree of "reasonable doubt"? Torfrid (talk) 02:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC)Torfrid

Wikipedia requires reliable third-party published sources. And, indeed, these are never necessarily 100% accurate. Even if the Natives of the era had recorded history in written form (most of their history was "recorded" or passed down in oral tradition), these would be considered inappropriate sources as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Native accounting aren't necessarily accurate either. There will always be a certain degree of "reasonable doubt" in many historical accounts. Which is why Wikipedia itself is not considered to be a reliable source.-- BC  _{talk to me} 16:48, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Barbara Mann's entry on the "Jigonsase" in the Encyclopedia of the Haudenosaunee offers a documented Native account of the campaign that led to Denonville's defeat — at the hands of a woman leader. Cohn-jesse (talk) 14:12, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Article Improvement/References

I would suggest that someone use the DoCB article and tune this article up. The references that author used are as good as you will find. The article needs to emphasize the new GG's efforts on behalf of the colony. Remove any material that isn't covered in the references provided. --Stormbay (talk) 14:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The DoCB article would be the best place to start to tune up this article. I am still curious about the original references used by the original editor, however.  BC  _{talk to me} 15:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Stick to the research of W. J. Eccles and the DoCB for the fact checking. Eccles was a highly regarded historian.Stormbay (talk) 04:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Disputed

This article lacks citations, contains a number of factual errors, and focuses solely on Denonville's time as Governor General of New France.

It is stated in the article that Denonville took 50 Iroquois sachems (chiefs) captive and sent them to France to be used as galley slaves. This often repeated claim has been discredited. Reliable sources such as Eccles relate that while Denonville’s forces did take prisoners, only a few could be considered sachems. Following the orders of Louis XIV, Denonville reluctantly sent 36 of the prisoners to France to serve as galley slaves. The return of the 13 survivors to New France in 1690 was due to the efforts of Denonville and Jean-Baptise Colbert, Marquis de Seignelay and le ministre de la marine, not Frontenac.

Denonville did not become a tutor to the royal household. According to Eccles’ article in the Dictionary of Canadian Biography, he was promoted to Major General upon his return to France, and was appointed deputy-governor to three of Louis XIV's grandsons.

Extensive revision to this article is in progress. Griffin's Sword (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Revisions have been completed. Griffin's Sword (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)