Talk:Issedones

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Location[edit]

Another location of the land of the Issedones can be inferred as between the Arimaspi (Huns 'at the foot of the Carpathian Mountains) and the Scythians (Ukraine, probably) according to ancient writers.Guss2 21:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would leave out the Carpathian Mountains, unless someone can cite these ancient writers. According to both Herodotus and Ptolemy the Issedones lived east of Scythia, in or around present day Turkestan, inconcistent with the Carpathian Mountains.

Let's insert direct quotes of Ptolemy, Herodotus and Strabo, right in the article, with notes on their locations in the texts. Then let's re-edit the article, building outwards from the sources. The unwarranted identification of the Arimaspi with Huns is doubtless part of a local ideology. --Wetman 20:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reaction. You are right! What about the next chapterGuss2 21:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Description[edit]

According to Herodotus, the Issedones practiced euthanasia of their elderly males.

I think there has been a mix up with the Massagetae. About them Herodotus tells us: I 216.: They have no precise limit of age laid down for their life, but when a man becomes very old, his nearest of kin come together and slaughter him solemnly (thuousi} and cattle also with him; and then after that they boil the flesh and banquet upon it This is a form of euthanasia indeed!

About the Issedones Herodotus tells us: IV 26.: The Issedonians are said to have these customs: when a man's father is dead, all the relations bring cattle to the house, and then having slain them and cut up the flesh, they cut up also the dead body of the father of their entertainer, and mixing all the flesh together they set forth a banquet.
So no euthanasia, the man is already dead!

In addition, the Issedones were supposed to have kept their wives in common; whether this marks high status (as institutionalized polyandry) or low social status (as chattel slavery) for the women is unclear.
Herodotus gives just one line about the position of Issedonian women:
IV 26. and their women have equal rights with the men.
That is all! Maybe here also some mix up with the Massagetae:
I 216.: Each marries a wife, but they have their wives in common, for that which the Hellenes say that the Scythians do, is not in fact done by the Scythians but by the Massagetai, that is to say, whatever woman a man of the Massagetai may desire he hangs up his quiver in front of the waggon and has commerce with her freely.

Similar customs could be found until recently among many Tibetan tribes, leading some to speculate that the Issedones were of Tibetan extraction
Who are those some? The only source I have found is at http://www.hostkingdom.net/siberia.html#Issedones , but unfortunately without he does not mention his sources. Guss2 21:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you can use JSTOR, go to Google Scholar and type in "Issedones tibetans" to see articles that seem to discuss this (I don't have access to either JSTOR or the journals themselves).

JSTOR, searching "Issedones Tibet" brings up only E. D. Phillips, "The Legend of Aristeas: Fact and Fancy in Early Greek Notions of East Russia, Siberia, and Inner Asia" Artibus Asiae 18.2 (1955), pp. 161-177 traces these Greek assertions about a real people they barely knew and the lost Arimaspeia, which with Herodotus and later Ptolemy are the literary sources of virtually all one argues about. Phillips asserts that the Issedones are "placed by some in Western Siberia and by others in Chinese Turkestan." (p 166). W. Tomaschek (in 1888 and 1889 articles, according to Phillips, p. 190) sited the Issedones in the Tarim basin north of Tibet, based on a Tibetan place-name Se-thon there. This Wikipedia article should report on the Issedones, quoting ancient sources especially, without coming to any conclusions. Probably I should incorporate material from Phillips' article into the text. --Wetman 22:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have revised the text, for your consideration. I left untouched the following somewhat dodgy statements (Wetman 22:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)):[reply]

"In addition, the Issedones were supposed to have kept their wives in common; whether this marks high status (as institutionalized polyandry) or low social status (as chattel slavery) for the women is unclear. Similar customs could be found until recently among many Tibetan tribes, leading some[Who?] to speculate that the Issedones were of Tibetan extraction; they may, however, have been Iranian or Tocharian in origin (and the similarities with the Tibetans the result of proximity alone)."

Issedonians and Massagetae are Finno Ugrians[edit]

Have nobody here ever heard of Finno Ugrian iki-vanha muinainen tapa (ever eternal ancient habit) to carry their deaths to kalmisto (place of deaths) where they were left to let the nature to finish the job and the corpse from where spirit had left to return part of the nature again. Red heared ( highest per centage of red heared people of the total population Finno Ugrian Ud-Murtts) or blond people ( highest per centage of the total population Finns and Eestis), riding with their horses, housing pigs, hunting and fishing. Massagetae are Onugr (Hungarian) tribes with thier Tibetan shepard dogs, which even exist today in Phennonia plains. Phennos (Finnis) had (and still have) the horses nearest to Mongolian horses. They have also getetical sister of Kaananin shepard dog which is called Karjalan Karhukoira (Karelian shepard dog). Do not exist nowhere else than under name Palstiinan Paimenkoira kept by Paleastinians ans Israelians in the land of Palestina. The two dogs both Tibetan Shepard Dog and Karelian Bear Dogs are the only ones who even attack bear (and of course wolfs) to protect their herds. Karelian bear dog is mainly trained to karhun ajo (bear hunt) and is not afraid of bears.

In Scythians something is wrong. The nomandic Scythians did not live in pernament wooden houses as Finno Ugrians did. Scythians seems to be a common name to all (kansat) people which arrived from Altai, Tarim and Gobi area to European plain called Oruss by the Huns and Mongolians. It is known that only Finno Ugrians and Turanians kylpeä (take a bath) in saunas using hot steam to take off the (hiki) sweat out of their bodies. An ancient habit. Some Scythian names can be transliterated even to today through Finno Ugrian and Türkic languages, but not through Indo - European languages. Strange isn´t it? These people are always deleted by Indo - Europeans. Read also eutanastia of Siberian tribes to help the elder out of this life to next one by his eldest son when the elder himself ask it.. Finno Ugrian ancient habit. The shared woman is nothing new. The Kirgiz offered his wife to the vistor to help the visitor get red of his mankind pressure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.95.64 (talk) 07:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wusun[edit]

The identification with the Wusun is entirely hypothetical and not really based on much. Thus the map indicating the Wusun has no place here.--Joostik (talk) 21:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]