Talk:Islam in Turkey/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Removed section

I removed a section because it is a copy-paste from http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+tr0051) If needed one can add it to external links--Charlesriver 02:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The Library of Congress Country Studies is in the public domain. To quote from the article, "No copyright is claimed on them." Khoi khoi 02:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Oops.. I didn't know that. Thank you for correcting.--Charlesriver 02:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is not neutral

The article represents a perspective and it's not neutral in any way. One can replace it with the opposite view. I'm highly disappointed to see such misinformation on Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.254.115.179 (talk) 14:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Please be specific. Khoi khoi 03:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, the 4th paragraph of the article represents the typical Kemalist view about the issue. It's what the newspaper Cumhuriyet lectures. One can easily argue with different arguments. I respectfully ask informed people to check the article and shape it into a neutral view. My English is not ready to handle it for now. Regards. 85.104.218.80 03:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Contradicts Religion in Turkey

Islam in Turkey:

About 99% of the population is officially claimed to be Muslim...

Religion in Turkey:

Nominally, 97.4% of the Turkish population is Muslim

Which, if any is correct?--Cory Kohn 11:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment

Neither Süleymancis nior Nurcus are a tarikat. The most secularized cities are not Istanbul and Ankara but Izmir, Antalya and Mugla.Marriex 15:07, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And Edirne. Gerry Lynch 14:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I have noticed that many Turkish takes pride in being the most "modern" muslim countries. This is debatable. I would say Malaysia is difintely better in term of human right and GDP per capita as well as (arguably) minority right. On the other hand malaysia is defintely less secular. So it is probably NPOV to just say that turkey is the most westernised muslim country. Vapour

"The Turkish governmental system has no difference with those of many European countries which separate religion from the affairs of the state."

I'm quite sure this is how secular Turks wish to see Turkey. It is at least debatable if Turkey is truly a "liberal" democracy. Separation of church and state should means that the state does not interfere with religion, which is not the case in turkey. I would think replacing SCS with secularism is more NPOV. Vapour

The terminology "Islamic nation" is very misleading because Turkey is a strictly secular state and technically is as Islamic as France. Turks as a people aren't particularly religious and Islam in many cases, serves as a community identifier more than anything else. I've changed it to "Islamic tradition" which is a lot more accurate and less controversial. It would be great if someone could upload some images of mosques like Ortakoy Mecide (which IMO, is the beautiful one in Turkey).--Kilhan 18:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the comment "in way similar to France" on the ban on private religious schools because in France , private religious schools are allowed , but there is no religious teaching in state schools.

Please totally update this aricle.Who wrote this interpretation?There's an undebatable alliance between evangelist Bush and islamofascist Arab minded savage capitalist Turks not only to destroy Turkey but destroy the whole world.Wikipedia is not neutral I sadly must say,instead governed buy Fetullah and Bush neo-cons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.215.28.213 (talk) 10:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism: Terrorism

Page has been vandalized numerous places where muslim or islam has been replaced by "terrorism". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.238.85.64 (talk) 20:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Fikh

Most Turks and Central Asians seem to fall under the Hanafi school of religious jurisprudence (fikh), which is apparently what the Diyanet endorses. The article on Kurds says that the major form used among them is the Shafi. Is this right? Anyway, fikh should really be included in the article. 118.165.204.65 (talk) 22:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Lack of References

The article seems to lack references a lot. It has quite a lot of information but only 7 references. We need to increase that. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

POV content in section on Shia

In particular this text:

"Furthermore, some of the sub-groups like Ishikists and Bektashis, who portrayed themselves as Alevis, neither comprehend the essence of the regular daily salat (prayers) and fasting in the holy month of Ramadan that is frequently accentuated at many times in Quran, nor admit that these principles constitute the ineluctable foundations of the Dīn of Islam as they had been laid down by Allah and they had been practised in an uninterruptible manner during the period of Muhammad."

This seems to be taking a specific stance that the Ishikists and Bektashis are wrong about Islam/the Quran rather than a neutral perspective. Assuming this information is true it should be phrased something like "unlike most Muslims, Ishikists and Bektashis believe...". --2.126.47.185 (talk) 11:43, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Ishikism

See Template:Religion topics for the position of Ishikism in this template. According to this template Alevis consider Ishikists as non-Muslim. 212.253.113.96 (talk) 16:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Ishikism is not a part of Islam although they claim to be Alevi. And Alevis do not consider them as Muslims. This is also accepted by the Ishikist people.128.164.201.51 (talk) 17:42, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

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%94 muslim? what is the source?

this number has no reality. also the "official" percentage of muslim people is just according to the "religion" on ID cards. and it's given after you are born. you dont choose it. many people dont bother to change it anyway. you should go to court etc.

all surveys give different results as the number of people who are asked are limited to only few thousands.

we cant know about how many percentage of Turkey population is muslim. (although if you count who lives the religion with all rules, the number should be very low, maybe even less than %20) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Viki.hesabim (talk • contribs) 19:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.173.8 (talk) 05:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

That really isn’t true. It’s easy to change your religion which is on your ID cards. “Although if you count who lives the religion with all rules, the number should be very low, maybe even less than %20.” That isn’t even close to the real number (which is way higher) and you can be a Muslim without following all the rules. All of what you said above was your own opinion which has no place in an encyclopedic article. Rodrigo Valequez (talk) 13:16, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Secularity in Turkey, Religion on ID Cards and the "Diyanet"

I believe the article is presenting a false impression of Turkey. The Turkish claim to secularity is voided by the actions of certain state institutions.

All citizens born to at least one Muslim parent are registered as Muslim at birth. This allows the "Diyanet Isleri Baskanligi" or "Diyanet" (literally, Office of Religious Affairs, but actually the state controlled Sunni Islamic instituton that has full authority on all mosques) to receive more funding from the governement budget and allows propagation of Sunni Islam by the state at the expense of non-Sunni Islamic movements, which are in practice excluded from the "Diyanet".

The result is that there is no reliable statistical data on the number of Muslims in Turkey. People who believe in other religions, or people who do not adhere to any religious practice are registered as Muslim at birth by the state. The legal procedure to change the religion used to be cumbersome: One had to go to the court, until recently it was not sufficient for one to simply declare their religion, a judge had to rule about what their religion was. Currently, it is sufficient to submit a written request for change of religion. Most people do not bother to register their actual religion, simply because religion is shown on ID cards and in a country of devout Muslims presenting an ID card at government offices may lead to discrimination of non-Muslims.

Another result is that the state controls the Islam religion (Jewish and Christian religious institutions are not under control of the "Diyanet" and the government). The priests in mosques are employed by the "Diyanet" (hence the state) and the prayers and preachings in mosques are under absolute control of the "Diyanet" (hence the state). If a group of Muslims attempt to practice Islam in a mosque in a way not approved by the "Diyanet" (hence the state), the "Diyanet", which, by law has authority over the use and inspection of mosques and madrasas, can ask for forceful removal of the mass from the mosque/madrasa. (exemplifying report in a mainstream daily newspaper in Turkey (in Turkish): http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/9471045.asp?gid=229&sz=96651)

The "Diyanet" only employs priests that accept Sunni form of Islam. The institution receives funds from the state budget to serve all the Muslims in Turkey, however, serves only Sunni Muslims. An alternative and more moderate form of Islam (Alevilik) is excluded from the Diyanet and Alevi people, who are also registered as Muslim, are not served or underserved by the "Diyanet". The Alevi institutions that are independent of the "Diyanet" are not provided with any state funding, because the state considers Alevilik to be a branch of Islam and the state recognizes the "Diyanet" as the sole representative of Muslims.

This is not secularity and no matter what is written in the constitution and in the laws, the practice in Turkey is not secular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.173.8 (talk) 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Being a secular state means that the country isn’t governed by religion in any way. The government may be connected to Diyanet but Diyanet doesn’t rule the country in any way. Diyanet employs priests that are Sunni because the majority of the country believes in Sunni Islam and it would be unconvenient and expensive to build new mosques and employ new priests for the other branches of Islam. Are the mosques in America (if there are any) funded by the state? No, because most of the population isn’t Muslim. It’s just common sense. All of what you said above is based on opinions and they have no place in an encyclopedic article.

Rodrigo Valequez (talk) 13:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

POV

I am starting this section so that we can have a discussion about the stunning amount of POV material in this article. For context, please see the edits I have made on this page as well as the edits of Chibacurve.

I will be asking several Wikipedia users to review the material in question and then come up with a plan of action.

I will put a timeline on this discussion of 30 days (decision will be made on 9 November 2017). User:Editor10! —Preceding undated comment added 02:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

What do you think of the lead? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The lead, although rather scant, is not problematic in terms of POV. What is more concerning to me is the "Diyanet and Secularism" section, which clearly contains OR and is laced with POV. User:Editor10! —Preceding undated comment added 12:46, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I’ve deleted (some) of the parts that are based on opinions. Rodrigo Valequez (talk) 13:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Status of Religious Freedom

Although it is stated that Turkey is the only secular country of the Muslim world, the article doesn't go into further detail about this, when in reality, in recent years there have been multiple criticisms about how Turkey is moving further away from being a secular country and have been moving closer and closer to involving the Sharia law in the government and politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashleycpark (talk • contribs) 23:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC) The sources which say that are most likely biased. Anything which changed didn’t happen in recent years. Rodrigo Valequez^(🗣) 21:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

some comments

Sorry to state but this article is an alleged 'disguised' and 'attire wise modernised' attack('takiyye' in Turko/Arabic) towards Turkey's unique stance as being the only secular but predominantly Muslim state in the world;from most probably the ubiquitous and infamous Fethullah supporters reigning freely in INTERNET.(ironically he himself lives in the States currently after jurisdictional issues and has an enmormous wealth). Thus it is pretty much biased at status of religion section.

If one carefully examines sharia of Islam, he will see that it is virtually impossible to reconcile with modern day understanding of democracy and civil rights (especially women)and it has been made quite obvious from former experiences that it would oppress and eventually ban peoples rights soon after it takes command (i.e. Iran,Afghanistan,and slowly but succeedingly nowadays in Morrocco and in Turkey by master of disguise AK Party).

Anyone with objective intentions and neutral look towards Turkey as it is today would certainly find zillions of attesting evidence.

Bluntly,If you want to live in a world of western but universal democracy(mind you I am very much against hypocritic values of western society but some values are really for the peaceful minded excluding some infamous global US administrations) you have to stay strictly secular in Turkey because after centuries of illiteracy,oppression and poverty which is still in tyrannic rule,Turkish people are very much inclined to fall for a regime which would produce bloody results as at least there still is a large number devoted in the belief that real religion is in the hearts and minds not in the headscarves or obvious practices.

regards,

Seeing things like "The Turkish democracy intends to build one mind one soul and rejects heteregenous structures." makes me inclined to agree that this section of the article is far from NPOV.

what it sunnis Muslim??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.196.106 (talk) 16:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

All of what is stated above is biased, very biased. Rodrigo Valequez^(🗣) 21:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ashleycpark.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)