Talk:Invented tradition

Merger proposal

I propose merging Fakelore into Invented tradition. Fakelore a subcategory of Invented tradition, and as both articles are relatively short I believe it wouldn't cause article size issues. ~~~~ BetweenCupsOfTea (talk) 07:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 11:08, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

An unregistered user coming from multiple IP addresses in the 240B:C020:4XXX block has been editing disruptively, so I have requested semi-protection for this page. --Macrakis (talk) 23:59, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

About the martial arts in this page

Inoue Shun, the English title of the book "The Invention of the Martial Arts" is miss translated. In original Japanese, it is "武道の誕生" It can traslated as "the birth of BUDO". It is not saying that "traditional martial arts of japan(Bujutsu)" is invented traditions. BUDO(combat sports for physical education) and BUJUTSU (combat technique) is clearly different things and separated but they are translated as both "Martial arts" in English and it becoming problems. Since most of traditional martial arts of japan is not invented traditions,it must avoid misleading 240B:C020:4A0:FEF7:AC25:EEF3:D739:D77 (talk) 13:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Judo is as the creation of Budo/Bujutsu (phisical education) from the Bujutsu/Jujutsu (traditional combat teacniques).

Inoue Shun, the English title of the book "The Invention of the Martial Arts" is miss translated. In original Japanese, it is "武道の誕生" It can traslated as "the birth of BUDO". It is not saying that "traditional martial arts of japan(Bujutsu)" is invented traditions. BUDO(combat sports for physical education) and BUJUTSU (combat technique) is clearly different things and separated but they are translated as both "Martial arts" in English and it becoming problems. Since most of traditional martial arts of japan is not invented traditions,it must avoid misleading 240B:C020:440:77C:AD4E:A1DE:9555:3B9 (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Eisteddfod

Eisteddfod should probably be mentioned. It is taken to be "ancient Celtic bardic and druidic tradition" but was essentially invented from whole cloth in the late 18th century, and is not a survived continual tradition from ancient-to-medieval festivals that are also given this name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The turtle ship of iron covered roof is invented tradition

Iron-cladding Pros and cons

16th century Korean turtle ship in a depiction dating to 1795 The belief that turtle ships, specifically their roofs, had iron cladding is controversial. No clear evidence exists that the ships had iron cladding. Generally, contemporary sources remained silent on the construction of the turtle ship to the point that "even conceptual estimates of the design are seriously handicapped by limitations in the knowledge we have".[1] Pertinent material comes mainly from two sources, Korean and Japanese war records:

Contemporary Korean records Primary Korean sources are generally silent on the matter: Admiral Yi Sun-sin himself makes no mention of an iron-clad roof in his comprehensive war diary, although in a war report submitted on June 14, 1592, he refers once to "iron spikes" protruding from the roof:

…under the threat of the coming Japanese invasion, I specially built a turtle-boat, with a dragon-head mounted at the bow, through the mouth of which one fires cannon, and with the back (roof-deck) studded with iron spikes (against enemy boarders). The crew inside can observe the enemy outside, but cannot be seen from outside. The ship can push into several hundreds of the enemy and cannonade them …[2]

Yi Pun, nephew of the admiral and witness of the war, mentions briefly in his biographical record that the upper part (roof deck) was covered with planks studded with bladed spikes, but gives no further details concerning the materials used.[3] Contemporary Japanese records

One Japanese record of Ship-Battles in Korea includes a description of a battle as experienced by two Japanese commanders on July 9, 1592, three weeks after Yi Sun-sin's having described the features of his turtle boats. The relevant part reads: …About 8 o'clock in the morning the enemy fleet (Yi Sun-sin's fleet), composed of 58 large ships and about 50 small ships, began to make an attack on ours. Three of the large ones were blind ships (turtle-boats) covered with iron.[4]

Toyotomi Hideyoshi had a written request sent to Tokugawa Ieyasu for iron plating to help "counter" the Korean navy. Some interpret this to be evidence of iron cladding on the turtle ships, but it may simply be a reference to the need for better Japanese vessels to counter the Korean ships. Later sources

The only contemporary depiction of the Turtle ship, the one commonly referred to as the first picture, comes from the Complete Writings of Admiral Yi, edited for the first time two hundred years after the war, in 1795.[5] The brushwork departs in important aspects from the war records: While the hexagonal structure of the deck may give credence to the view that the turtle ships featured iron roof plates, the unexplained absence of the documented iron spikes have raised doubts, leading to complaints about the "lack of realism in the brushwork of literati" which "has introduced questions as to the authenticity of the records".[6] Also, near the end of the nineteenth century, under the threat of the French navy, Korea officially commissioned the building an ironclad ship "just like the turtle ship." The official's design of the ironclad ship proved, however, too heavy and failed to float.[7] A drawing from 1795 of Admiral Yi's turtle ship shows a distinctive hexagonal pattern, strongly implying that something has been laid out over the wooden planking.[8] The iron-cladding of the turtle ship, if it existed, arose from vastly different fighting techniques than that of the nineteenth century ironclad. While the ironclad featured armor covering the sides, and later also all around, to protect the vessel from enemy shells, the iron roof of the turtle ship served the function of preventing Japanese soldiers from boarding.[9] 240B:C020:4C2:AA2B:80DB:8688:AE50:B421 (talk) 00:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

This may be an invented story, but in what sense is it an "invented tradition"? --Macrakis (talk) 01:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The point is korean nationalisit is keep on pushing those fake information of turtleship for the nationalisim of Korea, as the traditional ship of Korea and this turtle ship has significant roll for Korean Nationalisim as anti japan victimhoot nationalisim. 240B:C020:4C2:6DA6:15A:215C:9423:1464 (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

"Fake information" is not the same thing as an "invented tradition". --Macrakis (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Wicca should be included in this article

I can't imagine a more common and widespread, at least here in the U.S., form of invented tradition than Wicca. 2602:306:C4CE:B769:5969:398A:E4BF:29F6 (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)