Talk:Insular Celts

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Ireland Mid‑importance

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Untitled[edit]

created as a WP:SS split off Celts#Insular Celts.[1] --dab (𒁳) 13:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Insular 'Celts' in Ireland[edit]

Just want to point out that quite a bit of historical, genealogical, and literary material survives from independent Gaelic Ireland (c. 6th-early 17th century). Many terms are used to by the Irish to describe the peoples of Ireland (and Britain). But Celt was never one of them. Strange, huh? Fergananim (talk) 15:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not strange at all. "Celtic", as it is now defined, is a relatively modern scientific term.Cagwinn (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recent revert[edit]

Cagwinn has reverted on two points in the lead, changing "some" to "most" scholars date Celtic in Britain before the Iron Age. This is way outside my period, but the main text largely reflects the older view and needs updating. Cagwinn also says that no serious scholar dates the language to the Neolithic, but Barry Cunliffe in Britain Begins, 2012, has a map on p. 247 showing Celtic developing in Ireland, western Britain and NW Spain by 3000 BC. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:41, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cunliffe is not a linguist; the scholarly consensus today among linguists today is that Proto-Indo-European broke up and daughter branches entered Europe during the Bronze Age. I can't think of any reputable, non-fringe linguists who date the emergence of Celtic to the Neolithic; it's patently absurd. Cagwinn (talk) 19:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As you obviously have the expertise could you clean up the linguistics section? Dudley Miles (talk) 19:37, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's such a mess, it's depressing! I don't feel like spending the time on re-writing it, to be honest. Just scrap the content and link to the main articles on Insular Celtic languages, Common Brittonic and Goidelic languages. Cagwinn (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But as always, for good or ill, linguistics are only one part of the "Celt" concept. Johnbod (talk) 20:27, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But the only use of the term which is not controversial! Dudley Miles (talk) 20:44, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's only controversial in the UK - the rest of the world recognizes the term as being perfectly valid. Cagwinn (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Migration has been shown to play a key role in the spread of the Beaker complex to the British Isles. Genome-wide data from 400 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans (including >150 ancient British genomes) have been analysed. The introduction to the British Isles of Beaker complex culture came with incoming high levels of steppe-related ancestry, approximately 90% of the gene pool being replaced within a few hundred years.^[1]"

References

^ Reich, David (21 Feb 2018). "The Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe". Nature. 555 (7695): 190–196. Bibcode:2018Natur.555..190O. doi:10.1038/nature25738. PMC 5973796. PMID 29466337.

[1] Reich, David (21 Feb 2018). "The Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe". Nature. 555 (7695): 190–196. Bibcode:2018Natur.555..190O. doi:10.1038/nature25738. PMC 5973796. PMID 29466337.

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