Talk:Igor Danchenko

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Employment[edit]

Limited reporting available to cite, but Danchenko was being paid by Orbis while "employed" on paper by Target Labs, using it as a front to maintain his immigration status. Only source available: https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/27/fbi-docs-source-for-federal-surveillance-of-trump-campaign-made-up-rumors-with-drinking-buddies/

Add to employment section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRightSizer (talk • contribs) 01:45, August 4, 2020‎ (UTC)

Not a RS. -- Valjean (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

"Igor Yurievich Danchenko (born May 5, 1978) is a Ukrainian-born Russian citizen who works as a Eurasia political risk, defense and economics analyst in the United States. He lives in Virginia. He obtained and analyzed Russian President Vladimir Putin's university dissertation."

This is very unpleasant to read due to the way it jumps between assorted facts about Danchenko without any segue, and alternates a very short sentence with longer sentences. I've tried repeatedly to edit it and my changes have been reverted. Why is it so important to put his state of residence right there? Why should his work on Putin's dissertation be singled out rather than describing the broader theme of his research? 73.71.251.64 (talk) 22:27, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

His residence is important because people will assume he lives in Russia. His research, which is notable (he's still alive!), is now described better. I have made several tweeks for better flow and to make sure no one thinks Putin was president at the time he wrote (if he did) his dissertation in 1996. Take a look. -- Valjean (talk) 23:29, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, I'm sure the lead could use more summaries from other topics in the body of the article. -- Valjean (talk) 23:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The words "Ukrainian-born" might be a problem too, try googling "Igor Danchenko" "Russian-born" and you'll get hits pointing to wsj.com, politico.com, dailymail.co.uk, and others. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. We can discount the Daily Mail, but not the others... Why is he called a Ukrainian? -- Valjean (talk) 23:15, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The enko suffix is common in Ukrainian surnames so perhaps he is ethnic Ukrainian, or his ancestors were. That's not the issue though. The question is whether "Ukrainian-born" is certain enough to be in the lead. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:43, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll remove and make a new thread = Place of Birth. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why remove that he was born in Ukraine? It is a relevant context especially given everything that is happening between Ukraine and Russia now

Place of Birth[edit]

I removed "Ukrainian-born". There's no trouble finding sources including New York Times and Washington Post who say it, but there are also sources saying he was born in Russia. A sampling: Wall Street Journal (paywalled but I have library access), New York Times printed November 5 2021 page A14, Politico, Daily Mail. There are more. I'm calling Ukrainian-born "poorly sourced" since all we have is newspapers that disagree, and poorly sourced material doesn't belong in BLPs. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good move. This WaPo article says he was born in the Soviet Union, which is sufficiently vague to include Ukraine and Russia. We need something better before we can make claims about his exact birthplace. -- Valjean (talk) 01:02, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let's be encyclopedic here. Was he born in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic? If so, add this basic information to the article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done -- Valjean (talk) 02:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Peter, what is your objection to including accurate information? -- Valjean (talk) 15:32, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong, I object to re-insertion of contentious material in a BLP when reliable sources disagree. I've already explained that, see above. Valjean put in Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic with this edit and edit summary = "restored accurate info. At the time, it was all called Russia." I don't know what "it" means or what "the time" means, but at time of birth there was a distinction between Ukraine and Russia, and at time of publication of recent articles saying Russia or Ukraine or USSR there was a distinction. Incidentally Mr Danchenko's Odnoklassniki profile says place of birth = Perm, Odnoklassniki is probably no more reliable than (say) Facebook but Odnoklassniki is cited in the article's infobox for the date of birth so I guess somebody thought it was an okay source. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now I'm confused. To avoid confusion, let's stick to the version you reverted:
Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Soviet Union (now Ukraine)[1] (full ref used here)
The New York Times is reliable ("Born in Ukraine, Mr. Danchenko, 42..."), and, AFAIK, the wording is accurate. His birthdate is listed as May 5, 1978, and Ukraine was a province in the USSR until 1991. Are you contending that other RS dispute this? In what ways?
It just dawned on me that you might just be objecting to my edit summary's "it was all called Russia". I should have written USSR. At the time, Americans tended to just call it all Russia, which was very simplistic. -- Valjean (talk) 17:51, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is obviously a huge difference between being born in Ukraine and being born in Perm, Russia. What is the truth? The New York Times says Ukraine. I have no dog in this fight and don't care where he was born. We just need to get this right, using RS. -- Valjean (talk) 18:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As I already explained, New York Times also says Russia, and so do others, read my original post in this thread. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally, we'd have a source, like Danchenko himself, that would settle the matter, but we currently have a conflict among RS, so that means we should state both, noting that sources do not agree: "Some sources claim Danchenko was born in Ukraine[1] and others in Perm, Russia.[2]" -- Valjean (talk) 23:37, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that there are "sources" (plural) for Perm, I've only seen that Odnoklassniki profile and I wasn't suggesting that it should be cited in the article, but there are "sources" (plural) for Russia. I don't know what PAG says "we should state both", but I know WP:V says If there is a disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues X, while Paul Jones maintains Y," followed by an inline citation. For example: Some sources, including The New York Times, say Danchenko was born in Ukraine but some sources, including The New York Times, say Danchenko was born in Russia.[1][2] On the other hand, a possible reason there's disagreement is that some of the sources haven't really been careful (maybe they got Russia from Wikipedia when it said Russia and they got Ukraine from Wikipedia when it said Ukraine). So I'd favour saying nothing. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's certainly another option. Fine for now. Keep up the good work. -- Valjean (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Goldman, Adam; Savage, Charlie (July 25, 2020). "The F.B.I. Pledged to Keep a Source Anonymous. Trump Allies Aided His Unmasking". The New York Times. Retrieved July 26, 2020.
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