Talk:Iakovos Nafpliotis

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Copy and Paste[edit]

The article that appears on "analogion.com" is the one originally written by the author of this article, Georgios K. MICHALAKIS (otherwise known as "GKM") —Preceding unsigned comment added by G michalakis (talk • contribs)

Unfortunately, there are two issues with that:

1. We have no way of verifying that you are indeed the original author. While I believe you, that's not sufficient in case Wikipedia was to be sued for copyright violations.

2. Even if you are the original author, it is not clear you are the copyright holder. The copyright statement for the site says "(c) analogion.com, 2005-2008" and the names associated with the site are not yours. In many cases, work for hire become the copyright of the one paying, not the one writing. While I'm inclined to believe the site is just not diligent in presenting the proper copyright status, we have to go by what it says.

A claim that it's been released on a Wikipedia talk page is not sufficient as there is no way to ensure that the person making the claim is an authorized agent of the copyright holder. It is unfortunate, but too many people are willing to lie and so we have to be more restrictive than that.

In order for permission to be given, the original website needs to be modified to say released under the GFDL or specific permission to that affect needs to be sent to "permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org" from an address that is identifiable as being authorized to provide such permission.

Instead of deleting it, I have marked it as a {{copyvio}} which gives you a week to formalize the release.

If you have any questions, please let me know. -- JLaTondre 15:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Based upon links provided to me on my talk page, I'm satisfied that User:G michalakis is the original author of the materials and still holds the copyright. As such, I'm removing the copyvio tag & restoring the content. -- JLaTondre 01:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedian standards confronted with unknown topics[edit]

After you cleared that the author of this article is a generous and competent contributor, and not a thief, we should be happy that somebody has started to fill some of the numerous gaps in this encyclopedy. I just added a bibliographical reference to Navpliotis school book, which contains three volumes, and not just two. Other multimedial publications were already inserted by Michalakis as external links and allow to listen to historical recordings of Iakovos Nafpliotis.

The level of this article is rather high, problematic are only some proposed links for new articles. Its names have to be simplified and according to various transliteration methods for Greek provided with some useful aliases which help to avoid, that there will be ten articles on the same topic.

I updated some of the links, although I am not sure that the one about Nafpliotis' teaching became a victim of a lunatic web designer. Platonykiss (talk) 18:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GKM

I do NOT know who you are, but many issues here have been CLARIFIED a long TIME ago. This is NOT a forum.

As stated in the personal talks, where you have manifestly "contributed" in the same impoverished English as in the current article:

My use of main sources is certainly insufficient. Surely, there exist OTHER testimonies of that period, even negative ones (against Iakovos [although few in number eg. Markou, Psachos]). Furthermore, a number of Boudouris' writings are contested by some as being too subjective. When all this "historical" research will (eventually) come to light, some truly neutral authors may THEN wish to add the pertinent facts to the current presentation.

Concerning "ψαλτικὴ" and "contemporary psaltic notation", there are articles published in Scientific (and not just musicological) journals (one of which includes me as an author) which make use of these highly appropriate terms. What do novices know or care about "Round" Notation and other such details?

C. Dalitz, G.K. Michalakis, C. Pranzas "Optical Recognition of Psaltic Byzantine Chant Notation". International Journal of Document Analysis and Recognition,vol. 11, no. 3, pp. 143-158, December 2008 http://lionel.kr.hs-niederrhein.de/~dalitz/data/publications/ijdar-psaltiki.pdf

I added original polytonic Greek terms, and will continue to do so, which you can continue to transliterate as you see fit.

PLEASE REFRAIN from contributing to this article in English before consulting someone truly knowledgeable in this language. I wasted THREE hours correcting many ELEMENTARY school level English syntax errors. I need more time to go through the article once more.

The "lunatic" web designer you refer to is none other than myself (which I'm sure you know), and judging by the "gracious" expressions used by people such as yourself, I am sure you'd like this link removed, as you'd like all anti Karas comments to be removed as well, all in obtaining some BOLD print on Iakovos' occidental music scores!

While awaiting for further SCIENTIFIC work to be accomplished on the works of Boudouris, Tsolakidis, Païkopoulos and others who had known Iakovs, I beg that you do NOT "troll" on this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by G michalakis (talk • contribs) 09:55, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks anyway for your reference. My problem with your webdesign was that I thought of a kind of joke, when I saw your polemic remarks emphasized in such a way. (There are a lot of formatting mistakes in your reply as well, which I repaired so that the link to your article is working now.) On a second gaze I understood that this publication was a transcription of an interview.

The wrong syntax must be yours or somebody else's, because I did not change it. I just replaced your blind links with working ones. And it costed me more than just three hours, by the way. I even inserted missing references for you. What is the matter with you? This article is improving, not despite of my contributions, but because they motivated you to add more sections. So what is the point to regret, that it did not stay at a less developed state which you can anyway restore, whenever you want?

Concerning the evil Karas school it may calm you down, if you know that I have nothing to do with it. In my opinion his work is much overestimated today, mainly because of his students Ioannis Arvanitis and Lykourgos Angelopoulos. They are very gifted, and sometimes better singers than ethnomusicologists. They both are very different and they usually do not agree with each other, which also means that Karas could not have been so bad as a teacher. In any case, I think that nature is rich, because there are many flowers. The same is true for local traditions of the Balkans and the Orient. There is not only one school, and the rest is shit. This time, I used this page as a forum, but my impression is that it is hardly enough for you. You wish to discuss with an expert of Simon Karas on the talk page of his article. I am sorry, but I am not interested enough in this topic. Platonykiss (talk) 21:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Missing neutral point of view concerning the conflict between the Old Patriarchal and the Galatan School[edit]

I recommend to refer to some notes taken by Angelos Boudouris, translated into English by Dimitri Koubaroulis:

http://analogion.com/BoudourisMemoirs.html

He describes the conflict between Georgios Biolakis and Iakovos Nafpliotis as a rivalry between the school of Galata around Georgios Raidestinos II and the Old Patriarchal School of Iakovos' teacher Nikolaos Stoyianovitz, who already opposed to Georgios, because he sang according the Galatan school. I think that there is no need in an encyclopaedic article to identify stronger with the Patriarchal school of Iakovos Nafpliotis than even his student Angelos Boudouris who has at least described some unpleasant scenes between Nikolaos and Georgios.

I prefer to mention no longer the Karas issue, I mean as a kind of criticism against this article, as it has sufficiently improved here. After the issue had been already discussed 4 years ago, Iakovos' opinion is quoted now according to the memory of Boudouris and the author added the interesting detail, that his students replaced Simon Karas and continued to document Iakovos' patriarchal style. I personally think that there are a lot of more interesting details in Boudouris book, which are worth to be mentioned here (quoted or summarized). You have the Greek original and you can even quote in both languages. Platonykiss (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kiltzanides' Method of Exoteric Music and the School of Galata[edit]

Dear Mr Michalakis

Just allow me to answer some of your questions which you asked me on your talk page, so that we do not talk without any exchange.

GKM: WHERE? Along with Nileas Kamarados? and what does Iakovos have to do with Kiltzanides or "exoteric" music?

Nothing at all! I just wondered about Iakovos' own attitude, because Angelos Boudouris wrote that Iakovos regarded a composition like Bereketis' Koinonikon oktaechon as not suitable for a liturgical performance (today most of the singers do, simply because of its length). I asked myself, why are there no recordings at all of Iakovos Nafpliotis' interpretations of Bereketis, while there are plenty of Konstantinos Pringos' interpretations. Pringos even composed liturgical compositions in the makamlar, long before Stanitsas and other protopsaltes of his generation did.

Panagiotes Kiltzanides was closer to the Galata School and his theory which integrated the makamlar within the Oktoechos system, while Konstantinos the Protopsaltis simply supported Kiltzanides' edition of a kâr as a kind of exercise which memorized the seyirler of the different makamlar. The effect of this book and of the medium "modern psaltic notation" was, that plenty of psaltes started to think that they can learn now the makamlar. This would be a perfect example of this type of singers which you like to call "musicologists". Among dervishes, and there are as well Greek dervishes in Istanbul, this approach is certainly not acceptable. Nevertheless, the medium notation somehow promotes this kind of chauvinism. So maybe Kiltzanides' book fits better for certain articles about singers of the School of Galata than to the one about Iakovos Nafpliotis or about other singers of the Old Patriarchal School.

I will try to follow your request for an article about Gregorios the Protopsaltes. It is indeed a gap here which is very urgent and important to be filled. Platonykiss (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Parallage[edit]

GKM: παραλλαγή ("solfeggio") has NOTHING to do with the Papadic Octoechos.

According to the New Method you are right. According to the psaltic art you are wrong. I agree that an own article would be useful, but the current article solfeggio has certainly nothing to do with the Orthodox practice of parallage in any period, unless you insert a section about Chrysanthos, because this article is not just about the method taught at the Conservatoire de Paris (for the Guidonian solfeggio used in Western plainchant, please consult the article Guidonian hand). Right now I can offer you this link which treats the transition according to Chrysanthos. Platonykiss (talk) 20:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article Byzantine Notation[edit]

You suggested two links for modern neume notation. The whole topic is still missing. According to my experience I recommend to write an own entry, despite that there is already an entry Neume, which is so far focussed on Latin square notation. But it would become too long, if you introduced there into Ekphonetic notation, Kontakarion, Theta, Chartres, Coislin, Old Armenian, Middle Byzantine, Kryuki, and Neobyzantine Notation (inlcuding all alternative neumes like the system of Lesbos), but different concepts as well as they had been developed recently. One separated article which treats all this different forms together (except ekphonetic), would be at least a start. Platonykiss (talk) 21:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Clarify tag concerning changes in Orthodox chant traditions[edit]

Just to get this article ready. I think a lot of traditional singers, not only musicologists, would subscribe this point view. There are plenty of publications, you might quote here.

As promised I leave it to you, but please allow me two suggestions: A. Lingas (1999) or the proceedings "Tradition and Innovation in Late- and Postbyzantine Liturgical Chant II" (see Alexandru, Troelsgård 2013), you can copy and paste the cite tags from my articles "Hagiopolitan" and "Papadic Octoechos" (please open the section "studies" by a click on "edit source" and you will find them).

If these authors are too academic for you, also Pelopides' publication of Chrysanthos' "Theoretikon mega" might do the job. Some reasonable links for "parallage," since you speak about the Chrysanthine practice (a bibliographical reference would do as well), and we can finally remove all these tags which still mark this article as incomplete. Platonykiss (talk) 14:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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