Talk:Hoyt Wilhelm

regarding Roger Maris

From the page: "In 1961 the Baltimore Orioles deliberately brought Wilhelm into a losing game, despite Wilhelm being their closer, in order to face a single batter: Roger Maris, who was on the verge of hitting his 60th home run and tying Babe Ruth's record in 154 games. The Orioles were widely decried in the press for what was called a "Bush League play"."

This is only partially true. In this game, the September 20 contest at Baltimore, Maris hit home run number 59 off Milt Pappas in the third inning. It is true that Wilhelm was used in the ninth inning when the Orioles were behind 4-2 and that he did retire Maris, but he pitched the ENTIRE inning, in which Maris batted third - after Bobby Richardson and Tony Kubek had already made outs. Maris could have potentially tied the record in that plate appearance, but it is questionable at best to posit that Wilhelm was used with the sole intent of preventing that from happening, and it is outright incorrect to say he was used to face only one batter.

The misconception above can certainly be attributed to the dramatization of events as portrayed in the film 61*. Good cinema, but factually lacking.

Box score of this game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL196109200.shtml (see inning 9)

Maris' 1961 season log: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=marisro01&t=b&year=1961 (good reading)

75.57.119.16 (talk) 08:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

All of this seems to be imposing the present-day "closer" mentality on a different era, one in which nobody ever heard of a "save situation." My guess (I really should do the research) is that Wilhelm was often brought in to shut down the opposition, even early in a game, even when his team was behind in the score. 110 innings in 51 games doesn't suggest a ninth-inning ace. Good relief pitchers were available for use throughout the game in those days. WHPratt (talk) 14:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Hoyt Wilhelm vs Maris

The idea Wilhelm was brought in just so to stop Maris from getting to 60 homers in 154 games is a bunch of mularkey. Top relievers in that day pitched in losing games on a regular basis. For instance, just two games earlier Wilhelm made a relief appearance in a 1-0 Oriole loss to Boston.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS196109170.shtml

Wilhelm was brought in to relief against Boston with Baltimore down 1-0. A search of 1961 boxscores I'm sure will provide plenty of more evidence. Wilhelm's appearance in game 154 was nothing out of the ordinary.

As for the press making hay of Wilhelm's appearance, I couldn't find any such mention in a google news archive search. Here is how UPI reported the game.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7kUyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qeUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4170,4568453&dq=hoyt+wilhelm+roger+maris&hl=en

or a Reading Eagle Sports column

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uBErAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BpwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6111,1428383&dq=hoyt+wilhelm+roger+maris&hl=en

or even better an article that says two Oriole pitchers were rooting for Maris

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QO4NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JnkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4908,4228463&dq=hoyt+wilhelm+roger+maris&hl=enWilliam 17:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Triple?

Some sources say that, in addition to homering in his first major league AB and never again in his career, he tripled in his second AB and also never again tripled. Anyone know if this is true? 76.195.220.224 (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

False. Check his season batting record for his first major league year. It's obvious that he had some more at bats apart from (i.e., after) that homer the first time up, and he doesn't have a triple until the next season. WHPratt (talk) 14:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I checked Retrosheet.org. Wilhelm debuted Apr 18, 1952 with the N.Y. Giants. In his third game, Apr 23, he pitched in innings 3 through 8, got the win (9-5) and got to bat twice. He homered in the 4th off Dick Hoover of the Boston Braves with one out and the bases empty. In the fifth, he grounded out, pitcher unassisted, but Willie Mays scored from third, so Hoyt had two RBI in that game. He had 36 more at bats that year. On June 4, 1953, he pitched the final three innings against Cincinnati, winning 11-3. In the 7th, he tripled off Jackie Collum with two out, but didn't score. He'd already had something like 11 prior at-bats that season. So ... his triple came long after his homer, and yes, he never accomplished either feat again. WHPratt (talk) 06:24, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

45 Years

Wilhelm no-hit the New York Yankees on 20 Sep 1958, and nobody would hold that particular team hitless for almost 45 years. On 11 June 2003, it took six Houston Astros pitchers to do so in an interleague game. I don't know if that's interesting enough for the article. WHPratt (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be an interesting enough anecdote for History of the New York Yankees to mention that the Yankees weren't no hit for 45 years, but I don't think it is for this article. What's relevant to Wilhelm is the no-hitter itself and what it meant for his career. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's noteworthy that, for 45 years, Wilhlem remained the last man to no-hit the Yankees. The implication is that he blanked the team that was famously resistant to such blanking. Probably much of it is due to random chance, but it's a nice story. WHPratt (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

I note that stories -- about a committee of Houston pitchers again blanking the Yankees earlier today -- take care to mention that the Bronx Bombers have only been so defused twice in 64 years ... and Wilhelm is (and will probably remain) the last man to shut them down without assistance. Sort of shines light on his feat, wouldn't you say? WHPratt (talk) 04:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hoyt Wilhelm/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk · contribs) 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and review this. I'll say right now that I do not believe the coverage is strong enough for GA status right now. Rather than quick-failing the article though, I'll help you and any other baseball guys willing to jump in as we try to get this to GA. To start, here's one example. I see that with the Orioles he had a stint where he became a starter and had great success, yet that ended as soon as it began. Certainly there's got to be something out there on his conversion to start, as well as his change back to reliever. Wizardman 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

As a second note, at the least there has to be at least something noted about each season. After mentioning his time in the rotation in 1960, it jumps to when he was traded in 1963. Can't be having gaps like that. Wizardman 01:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

• I've had this article on my "to do" list for some time, and noticed the GA nominator's edits as they were happening. While they were helpful, I do agree with Wizardman that this article is not ready yet. 15 sources on a subject such as this doesn't cut it. A deeper look into Google News archives and any books on the subject would be the first thing that should be done here. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Size-wise it looks better now, so I'll start up the prose and source review sometime int he next few days. Wizardman 17:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Starting with the peripheral stuff, the article is stable, since a requested expansion wouldn't be considered article instability, and the two images are both public domain. The sources all appear appropriate, however I did see an AuthorHouse book. Now, the author seems prolific and known enough that it's ok, but that might be something that, at FAC, they would want you to steer away from. I spotchecked a couple sources and found no copyright violations, which leaves the prose to review next. Wizardman 22:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Wizardman. I appreciate your comments. I replaced the AuthorHouse reference - not sure what I was thinking when I used that one! Work and school are cutting into my WP time a little this month, but I should be around to help respond to review feedback in short bursts. EricEnfermero (Talk) 01:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Wizardman. While I'm not very experienced with GA work, I won't make any major edits to the article, however, I have the page on my watchlist and watch Eric's edits as they go by. As the nominator, I'm also available and open for suggestions, as long as they aren't super complicated. Eurodyne (talk) 02:06, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

For the early life section, I have no issues with the prose as is, sans a minor one: "He later recalled being dropped from a Class D minor league team and having the manager tell him to forget about the knuckleball, but he persisted with it.[6]" While fine, he only played in Class D until 1947, so having it at the end is iffy, I'd place it before the draft note. Also, the post-war minor league sections seem glossed over. After getting drafted, he rose up the minor league ranks as a starting pitcher. A bit more detail on those years would be nice, and I'd like to see something on when/why the Giants both brought him up to the major leagues finally, as well as why they made him a reliever. That happens all the time today, but it was a lot rarer back then so it's worth noting. Wizardman 14:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Good feedback, Wizardman. I think I have addressed these issues now. I can't quite place the timing of his being cut from Class D (at 51-18 in Class D, it's not like he ever had a disaster of a year) but I have at least moved that part before the draft stuff. I added to the part about Wilhelm being called up as a reliever, but can add more if you think it wouldn't be too much detail. (Among the 1952 starters were Sal Maglie and Larry Jansen, NL co-leaders in wins in 1951.) EricEnfermero (Talk) 02:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's my early MLB career comment, as I only found one issue: "Wilhelm was a key piece of the pitching staff that led the 1954 Giants to a world championship. " This sentence just kind of floats here. I would either mesh it with his statline, which would show it, or add on his postseason performance onto the tail end of the paragraph, since that should be included (only time he was there in his career, just noticed that now). Wizardman 03:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's better now. EricEnfermero (Talk) 03:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Also added detail re: the 1954 World Series as I glossed over that a bit. EricEnfermero (Talk) 23:54, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the rest of the article:

• The middle career section is mostly good, but 1968 having just one sentence despite all the career highs feels a little bit odd. If nothing else go into a bit more detail on those highs.
• Also, for 1972, it jumps to his release/retirement without noting anything on that season.
• "believing that people had to born with a knack for throwing it." had to be born

I'll put the article on hold now, and after the above is fixed I'll do a read-through of the SABR bio, just to make sure there's nothing significant that was omitted in the article, then we should be good. Wizardman 03:01, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Wizardman. I added some 1968 info re: the team record and Wilhelm being briefly considered for a starting nod to break the games pitched record. I inserted a little more about his expansion draft selection and the partial season that led to his retirement. The Wilbur Wood stuff is hard to place because it spanned several seasons. Let me know if you think that's okay. I added info about a discrepancy in Wilhelm's DOB described in the SABR bio. SABR mentions a couple of minor arrests that didn't seem to impact his career, so I left them out but would include them if you think it's a good idea. EricEnfermero (Talk) 09:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

This isn't something that necessarily has to be added into the article, but according to the SABR bio the Braves seemed to trade for him in 69 to help with a playoff push, yet due to the trade occurring in September they weren't able to use him in the playoffs. Puts the eight games he played there in more perspective. In any case, the article has come a long way, and it's a great deal better than when I first saw it. I'm now happy with passing it as a GA. Wizardman 12:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

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