Talk:Hotpants

Short shorts

Are short shorts ≈ hot pants? — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 07:09, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

All hotpants are short shorts, but not all short shorts are hotpants... It depends on the context. Before 1970, short shorts were basically sports or leisure wear so hotpants were distinct from them in that they were fashion garments, and nowadays, the terms are pretty much interchangeable, mainly due, in my personal opinion, to the fact that hotpants just sound sexier/more fun/hotter (ha ha)/sleazier than shorts. So the answer is, yes and no. Mabalu (talk) 08:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Mary Quant

While Mary Quant did offer short-shorts in the 1960s, I'm not really convinced that she was the first to call them hotpants. So, the source we're looking at that says Quant created hotpants, there are a number of factually dubious claims in the entry already. Maybe it's sloppy writing, but they claim that Quant was the first to "trademark it" (the miniskirt) - which is nonsense, just because a designer has "trademark designs" doesn't mean those were formally trademarked in the sense that is implied there. There are a few other claims in the entry that are VERY debatable (I know of at least one 1950s designer offering PVC and vinyl scooter coats, long before Quant reportedly innovated vinyl clothing, and John Bates was certainly doing evening dress looks in vinyl in 1962....) - To an outsider, the authors of the book do sound reliable, but they're definitely not fashion historians and I wouldn't consider it a very reliable source for claiming that MQ coined the term - not least because it DOESN'T say as much. The book IS a reliable source, technically, but I wouldn't consider it one.

There are indeed a few references to MQ inventing hotpants in 1969/1970 - the most reliable claim is cited in the article is Hamer & Blum, and that's more a throwaway aside in a 1981 book (direct quote: "She (Quant) invented the craze for 'hot-pants' in 1970") - which is debatable. The Dictionary of Neologisms see page 167-8 goes into the etymology of the term at great length, with a LOT of references - and not a single mention of Quant, which is a pretty major oversight if she apparently invented it. Given what a household name Quant was across the Western world at the time you would expect there to be at least some mention of her involvement, especially as the researchers of the Neologisms dictionary have definitely done a lot of work to put together their findings, including trying to find the earliest uses of the term.

It's worth noting that Mary Quant does mention "hotpants" three times in her 2012 autobiography, but doesn't claim to have named them. My take on this 2012 source is that Quant's use of the phrase is retrospective - short shorts of any type are now known as hotpants in 2012, so it's not used in the 1960s sense (and she doesn't even mention specific dates in association with any of her three references to hotpants). I do know that she is referring to a 1967 look on this page, because (original research alert!) an example is in the V&A - albeit a remake from 1973. But calico is hardly a "luxury" fabric, so (personal opinion alert!) they're not really hotpants as defined. Quant is using the term for a contemporary 2010s audience, not as a historical term, and doesn't even claim to have coined it or invented it. If she had invented the term, she certainly wouldn't have hesitated to tell us ALL ABOUT IT, as she is very good at promoting herself and talking about her work. Incidentally - might hotpants have been invented by Ungaro in 1967? Nup, a claim like that would be original research/personal opinion. Short shorts have definitely been around, in a wide range of materials, long before they were called hotpants.

Anyway, this is why I am VERY cautious about claiming Mary Quant invented the term in the lede - the sources for this are generally quite throwaway (plus I haven't found a single contemporary claim, it's all after-the-fact claims) and lack the breadth, authority and depth that the sources for the WWD claim have. Mabalu (talk) 15:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)