Talk:Horror game

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Requested move 22 August 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved. Nominator withdrew nomination, which also had plenty of opposition. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 03:54, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Horror game → Horror video game – better and correct naming, match with List of horror video games Editor-1 (talk) 04:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose as per common name, and just as easy to move the list to here, if the consistency is the problem. When I created this, I did look at news and media sources, and "horror game" was far more common than "horror video game", and like with most of the other video game genres, the "video" part is dropped unless further disambiguation is needed. In this case, a google news search gives "horror game" 92,600 hits, "horror video game" 9,620 hits. Google scholar, "horror game" 2000 hits, "horror video game", 300. --Masem (t) 05:38, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • So to try to go beyond this with concern that "horror game" may be sweeping up card/board games alongside video games:
      Google Scholar: "horror game" + "video game": 1330 hits; "horror game" + "card game": 70 hits (and to go further "horror game"+"card game"-"video", 2 hits). "horror game"+"board game":158 hits, "horror game"+"board game"-"video": 4 hits; "horror game"+"video game"-"card"-"board": 644 hits.
      Google News: "horror game" + "video game": 26,400 hits; "horror game" + "card game": 2,060 hits; "horror game"+"card game"-"video", 245 hits. "horror game"+"board game":3030 hits, "horror game"+"board game"-"video": 304 hits; "horror game"+"video game"-"card"-"board": 20,300 hits.
    • So I am pretty strongly confident that "horror game"'s common reference is to the video game genre, not to card or board games. --Masem (t) 17:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also , this simply may be due to the fact that video games generally have a larger body of sources that cover them which does give their naming scheme more weight here. --Masem (t) 17:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Video games are far far more popular than tabletop games (no question about that), but I still don't think that that is a good reason to basically act as if they didn't exist. Even if this renaming request fails, I think it's best to correct that over-generalization in the first sentence (as editor1 suggested). It's like defining PC's as "machines that run Windows" simply bc that is the most popular OS — Daveout (talk) 04:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Right, but this is the what COMMONNAME results in; if a platform is far more popular than another, it will get the common name over the minor one and we'll use hat notes to for the others. The question to ask is if the video game definition far overshadows the board game version, and I still think it clearly is the case. --Masem (t) 04:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ok. (Just one last note: in this case specifically #CommonName is in conflict with #Criteria, which forbids ambiguity. That's why I support the name change) — Daveout (talk) 05:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • Hrm to be more accurate, I should be saying that the video game term is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "horror game" then (though it is also the common name as well), based on the page counting. The number of times "horror game" is used to reference card or board games, rather than video games, is so few that there doesn't seem to be challenge for the primary topic. --Masem (t) 05:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. To be more precise and avoid potential ambiguity (even if it doesn't happen very often). It feels problematic to state outrightly that "horror games" are a "video game genre", well what if someone is referring to table top horror games? For instance, there is no way of knowing exactly how many of those 92,600 "horror games" google results are referring to video games specifically, nor how many of them are referring to other types of games. They probably include this IGN article, for example, which is about a card horror game. -- Daveout (talk) 07:20, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the thing that was in my mind, not all horror games are *video* games; for example, the article video game artist provides a generic explanation, so either this article should be renamed or we should change it to a generic concept with one section for video games, same as the article video game artist. -- Editor-1 (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:NATURAL WP:COMMONNAME WP:CRITERIA In ictu oculi (talk) 07:47, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If and when encyclopedia articles on other types of horror game are written, we can rediscuss, but until then, there's no ambiguity among Wikipedia articles and thus no need for disambiguation. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so just because the term "horror game" can refer to non-video games as well in text doesn't mean disambiguation is required just yet. For example, look at Board_game#Categories, where "horror game" is not considered a notable classification of board game types. (Also, re Daveout's example, Arkham Horror isn't really referred to as a horror game, despite the name - the lede correctly calls it more of a Cooperative board game / adventure board game. The card game version isn't that different.) SnowFire (talk) 15:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That IGN article also describes Arkham as being one example of the “Lovecraftian horror games”. So when you search for “horror games”, that page will probably be listed along with those 92,600 matches. The category list of board games that you linked above is community made, non-exhaustive, and unsourced. You cannot use that to claim that "horror game" is not considered a notable classification of board game types. In fact, Im gonna add the horror category, with an example and sources. — Daveout (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done — Daveout (talk) 16:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • An issue is around the nature of the horror trope in media. It is meant to create tension and emotion in the consumer of the media, and so a work like a horror film (where you are a passive viewer) or a horror (video) game (where you are a semi-passive obvserver) that gets immersed in the work, that's possible, but the idea of a card or board game being a "horror game" is a bit harder to take because of the lack of immersion. Its theme may be horror, but genre wise, its likely more as SnowFire says, something more akin to a cooperative game. --Masem (t) 17:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't really agree with Daveout's edit to the board game article. Maybe "horror board game" is a board game genre, but finding an instance of those words in running text isn't proof of anything, just that this is a valid grammatical English construction of words. https://geekandsundry.com/go-back-to-baker-street-with-these-stellar-sherlock-holmes-games/ is a link where you can find the words "Sherlock Holmes board game" and a list of them, and it's a grammatical English phrase (board games involving Sherlock Holmes), but it's not a genre or category of board game. The IGN listicle of "horror and zombie board games" you added is closer, but it looks like churnalism written in an hour to me, an excuse to put a bunch of buy-at-Amazon sponsor links with copy-pasted short descriptions of the game. One Night Ultimate Werewolf a horror game, seriously? (It's obviously a hidden-role game).
  • Returning to the matter at hand, I'd ideally hope for better sources than these on the existence of "horror game" for board games or the like, and even if better sources are found, then for there to be enough to make a draft article that would survive deletion. Or even, a section of an article called Board game genre or the like. Until this other Wikipedia article exists, there's nothing to disambiguate at the video game article. (And I agree with Masem as well - we should follow the sources, but if sources do exist, I suspect they will be more about "games that simulate the feel of horror fiction" not merely "games with some horror tropes in them." Beating up zombies and vampires is very common but doesn't make you horror.) SnowFire (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Masem, The matter of immersion in video games is complicated because there's a subjective aspect to it (the concept of genre suffers from the same problem) - so there's space for legit disagreements. But I'm not inclined to say that board games are less immersive and less deserving of being included in the horror game genre. (I know that I will be “stretching it” a bit in the following examples but imagine someone saying that horror books are less deserving of being part of the horror genre bc they aren't as immersive or scary as films. Or that a certain horror game isn't really horror bc someone didn't feel fear). In order to present a different perspective, here is how Bernarn Perron talks about a tabletop horror game in the book “Horror Video Games”: (I’ll put it inside a collapsible table): — Daveout (talk) 04:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
collapsed quotation

“First amongst these are Chaosium’s tabletop role playing games […] The franchise has wide acclaim among tabletop role-play gamers […] Players become detectives of the Cthulhean conspiracy, placed in a wide range of eras and locations with each edition, using various skills, yet running the fairly high risk of dying horribly or going insane. A common criticism of the games is that they tend to stray from the Cthulhean ethos into the domain of action-based adventure with storylines pitching the group in the task of saving the world. Like video games, table-top role-play games do tend, perhaps because of their core market, to focus on action, often fighting in amongst exploration and character development. In line with the traditional form of table top systems, role-players expect to be active agents in the game. To be able to initiate action and prevail over adversity is, in this format and also in video games, geared as the mark of player presence and participation. Fighting and winning is something that does not tally with the Cthulhean; here we see how the dominant “act-and-prevail” rhetorics of popular participatory entertainment flounder on the bleak, pessimistic, shores of Love-craft’s ethos.”

  • That sounds immersive to me. He even ignores the player\character distinction when he says “Players become detectives” (something that I’m personally not in favor of) — Daveout (talk) 04:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Red X I withdraw my nomination -- Friends, I withdraw because whether this article be renamed or not, at the end we need one article titled as "Horror game", so it is better to just keep this old page and turn it to a general purpose article that covers all types of horror games whether being video game, card game, board game, physical game and etc, same as/similar to the article video game artist, so just please respect to my request and User:Daveout and help to achieve this, thank you.--Editor-1 (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think the concept that you're basis on video game artist makes sense here. The fact someone there forced a complete non "video" related art thing (eg for tabletop RPGs) into that makes no sense. "Game artist" as a board term might be possible but the aspect is how a game artist - whether board or video - differs from any other type of artist working for hire in modern media is not clear why a separate article is even needed. That article is really a red herring.
    • To go back to here, it is understandable that there might be a small number of people coming here to find info on "horror games" as that term pertains to the board/card/tabletop variety but there's so little information on that specific genre compared to the horror game related to video games, that that would be diluting this article. We can hatnote to a proper location for the board/card/tabletop variety as needed even if that's a subsection somewhere. --Masem (t) 16:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 May 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved. No consensus for the move (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Horror game → Horror video game – There are horror games that are not video games. This dispute arose at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_May_6#Category:Horror_games, where an objection was raised to the proposal based on a concern about the name of this article. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 10:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, the RM above with the same rationale ended as no consensus. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as long as article is only about video games. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Clearly the right solution. There are many types of horror games that are not video games and acting like the shorter form 'horror games' overtakes the broader meaning is silly and a clear form of recentism. It would be like if the article 'video game' was moved just to 'game' because most people simply say and write 'game' when talking about them because it's simpler than saying two words.★Trekker (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose In the sources, it is just "horror game", taken to be a video game. I know the term absent context could imply a board game or the like but the sources out there nearly all use "horror game" as the video game kind. If there were separate articles on "horror board game", that would be appropriate to use a hatnote to distinguish between them. (Note that many video game genres are just known by "x game" and not "x video game", even though there are non-video game "x games" out there as well). --Masem (t) 13:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you bring up that many other genres use the same format just proves my point, people often shorted "video game" to just "game", that doesn't mean "video game" should be at just "game".★Trekker (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem: your good faith comment is factually incorrect - see GBook below stating Call of Cthulhu (role-playing game), published by Chaosium (first edition, 1981) is the "first horror game". So fact, per books, "horror game" is not just for "horror video games" outside the way video games fans use the term. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, largely due to WP:COMMONNAME and also the reasons why this move failed to find consensus in 2020. From an ngram search we see that the term "horror game" appears in books vastly more often than "horror video game": [1] and when we drill down to the specific hits for "horror game", we find they're all video-game related. Now there may be a few other games out there that are horror games and aren't video, but there don't seem to be many, and as Masem says, the video-game concept is a clear primary topic for the term. We don't need to use a name which is less WP:CONCISE and less commonly used merely because it could be confused with a relatively obscure alternative concept... Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'm not convinced that the non-video game use of "horror game" is particularly common or encyclopedic. Sure, there are board games with horror themes, but they aren't generally billed as "horror games" without clarification, they'll be hidden identity games / social deduction games or the like. "Horror game" unqualified really is a genre in video games, though. SnowFire (talk) 20:47, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Post close relisting[edit]

@Extorc: this proposal was rejected in 2020, and it seems like WP:CONCISE should favour the shorter title "Horror game". Why did you decide to move this time? I oppose this move. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the ngram shows a huge lead for "horror game" over "horror video game".  — Amakuru (talk) 12:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. This proposal was in the cold box for nearly 3 years so consensus can change in that time period and as per my judgement, consensus exists to move.
As far as I see, this request was given the prescribed 7 days to be open and was closed after that period elapsed, so I appreciate your comments, but the decision of this closure is not subject to your contribution.
I acknowledge the statistics you provide but is it that the games that are not video-games but still fall under the genre of horror don't have any statistical significance here? That is the same question the discussion asks and I look at this discussion and draw the conclusion that the community believes that it is significant and hence we need to move. Thanks. @Amakuru >>> Extorc.talk 15:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Extorc: what do you mean my contribution is not part of this? Am I not a valid Wikipedian to you? Please can you relist this discussion> Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this was a bad closure. From an administrative view, this was at best a no consensus, since PRIMARYTOPIC was argued for over the desire to align cat and main article names. CCC but there's nowhere close to the right participation to know that here. Masem (t) 20:57, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru You were not a part of this discussion before the closure. The entire purpose of having a closure is to not modifying it after the fact. >>> Extorc.talk 02:20, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Extorc: I don't agree with that at all. The "entire purpose" of closing a discussion is to get the right result, reflecting community consensus. If that takes 7 days, then great, but if it becomes clear after the fact that the consensus may not be as specified, it is entirely normal to reopen and relist the discussion. Saying this result is set in stone now because I missed the discussion by two days is against the spirit of WP:NOTBURO in my view. I have been closing RMs myself for more than ten years, and I would always grant a relist after closing if the original decision was tight, or if I thought there was a chance of a different result. In this case, where a prior RM resulted in no consensus, and this one has opposition as well as support, it's far from clear cut. If you flatly refuse to grant my request for a relist here then I'll have to take list this as move review, but it would far easier for everyone if you can just reopen it and give this one another week please. Thanks again  — Amakuru (talk) 10:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I agree with you that this discussion, there was no overwhelming consensus. I will relist this. @Amakuru >>> Extorc.talk 10:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will now act as an involved editor and leave the closing to some other editor. >>> Extorc.talk 10:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I cannot understand why anyone would cite WP:CONCISE, when as the guideline says "This page in a nutshell: Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." Concise is one of five WP:CRITERIA which applies only when all criteria can be observed. In this case it is obvious that the article is not about any horror games but about only horror video games; per Bernard Perron's 2014 book Horror Video Games: Essays on the Fusion of Fear and Play. Mistitling that fails 4 criteria, fails WP:TITLE, and horror video game is a better response to sources and readers. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For fact per: Lost Souls of Horror and the Gothic Elizabeth McCarthy, Bernice M. Murphy · 2016 p.165 "It was the first horror game and one of the earliest licensed adaptions of an existing world. Unlike previous fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, the Call of Cthulhu game emphasized eldritch horror.. " - there we have it, the first horror game was pre- video games. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One source doesn't change PRIMARYTOPIC. Its why one looks to things like Google hit counts to judge relative importance of terms. That you have one source that says it was the first horror game (which does line up the history here, as predecessors of horror video games were only coming out about that time) is not sufficient to tip against hundreds of RSes that use "horror game" for video games specifically. Masem (t) 12:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would also add that given there are some hits for "horror game" that aren't video games (but not enough to establish its own article), we could slightly alter this articles presentation to still focus on video games but briefly talk about horror games in other interactive media (tabletop games). Masem (t) 17:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's also an option. This article is nowhere near the WP:TOOLONG territory, so no reason at all not to mention other media.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Literally the only reason "horror game" is often used over "horror video game" even when talking only about video games is because its shorter, people shorten things all the time, that doesn't mean United States Marine Corps should be moved to USMC or video game to just game even if people call video games just "games" 99% of the time.★Trekker (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just rename the article so it meets all five criteria and uses plain accurate English. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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