Talk:Holodomor/Archive 9

Balitskii

Davies and Wheatcroft mention Balitskii's conduct in Ukraine was particularly heinous (my word) and that he's remembered for it today (their description), but fail to mention anything further--not the focus of their book. Anyone with more references on this for information to add? —PētersV (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Balitskii – it a sort of “high commission from Moscow” (also some historians stated what he was a “person from Kaganovich”) which come to find "enemies, spy’s and destructive organizations" within Ukraine – so he did that (anyway many of arrested was released in Spring-summer 1933) with “great success”. At same time GPU of Ukraine continue it’s routine work – inform about political situation, inform about hunger and starvation, organize and in some case distribute food aid ect. – But there was an other responsible person – deputy head of Ukrainian GPU – Karlsson – all “famine cases” and reports signed by him – you can found more documents which he signed here [1]

Also please not to mix all (Ukraine, North Caucasus and whole Soviet) in one cup – it’s mislead the visitors (Sheboldayev not so famous person for everyone). Jo0doe (talk) 11:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Pēters - North Caucasus and Lower Volga it's not the same - please check the Bio and date [2]Jo0doe (talk) 19:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I ran across Sheboldayev's post as secretary for the Lower Volga in association with the famine but it wasn't dated, corrected. —PētersV (talk) 15:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Export Grain

This section is not understandable - it is just a mass of numbers. It may make more sense if the data was in a table. You really have to dig to determine whether exports were higher or lower - hence not understandable. A table of data would help. Use a general statements followed by specific statments. Otherwise delete the mess.Bobanni (talk) 08:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I assume only for you (since it exist several months) - facts it's always mass of numbers - especially export figures. Table would be too complex - for everyone whom would like to get tables - link added to exact info (images). History - it's thing which required a facts. I assume you would like to preserve high figure for 31-32 only? Silly step to reach desired Jo0doe (talk) 13:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

please use a facts instead imagination

Please use a facts instead imagination – If number of 25-thousanders allocated from Ukraine was approximately 7500 (mostly from Ukrainian industrial centers) and the number of kolkhozes in mid of March was more then 24800 – who create the rest? While more – in some kolkhozes was 2 or 3 25-thosanders – please divide. Also please carefully read numerous Decree from July to February – you can’t find any thousanders – only silrady and komnezamy. Sovkhozy was “remanufactured” rather then reintroduced – see relevant Decree.

While appeared article in November Pravda – some of Ukrainian sugar- beet and grain rayons was already “totally collectivized” – Stalin’s article based on that facts.

Also regarding Kulaks – as far as I know first category of them deported without families (30K for Ukrainian SSR), rest – if the work-capable family members agreed to come with kulak (old aged family member and children must not go with them – accordingly to instruction). So – less emotions and more facts – please.

Not state – but kolkhoz requisition - since property of Kulaks (excluding his debts) was used as share of Kolkhoz. Jo0doe (talk) 20:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Joe.

our comments are not warrented. i did not add this material. I only corrected some of the typing errors and the English. I actually thought that you had added the material. Bandurist (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Why did the famine end?

Hunger in significant extent comes at the beginning of 1933 to sugar-beet production areas of Vinnitska and Kiyivka oblast (present Kyivska and Cherkaska oblast – Uman) later in January to Dnipropetrovska (mentioned as worst affected in all documents) and since mid February – beginning of March hunger becomes a famine at virtually all Ukraine (excluding Chrnigivska oblast were “only” malnutrition and hunger) As of beginning of March 1933 affected: Dnipropetrovska - 35 rayons (out of 59) Kyivska – 27 (out of 91) Vinnytska – 20 (out of 74) Donetska – 29 (out of 48) Odeska – 14 (out of 70) Kharkovska – 5 (out of 83) Moldavian ASSR – 9 (out of 13). After some relief –in mid April Kharkovkska and Kiyivska on the first place, May Chernigivska joined them all. By end of May in south regions situation changed from famine to malnutrition, but at north became more worth – especially at Kharkovska. But famine decline since Ukraine by end of May get only for agricultural sector more then half of total soviet aid for food, seeds and forage, and also significant changes in management at all level allow to distribute aid more effectively as also expectation for new harvest was good – field work was accomplished earlier and on significant bigger area (as compared with 1932). So hunger ends with new harvest –from July. By end of August authority remedy situation with orphaned children. Why – significant food aid, changing ineffective managers on all level – predominantly at kolkhozes at sovkhozes. And major – changing the attitude to agriculture at Moscow – from auxiliary to industry – to one of important economic sectors. Stalin crimes - he passed all to Narkomzem (Head (1929-1934) - Yakovlyev) without harsh control, also combining in one Authority planning and statistics lead to a significant differences in papers and real life situation. Jo0doe (talk) 16:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-English sources

Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobanni (talk • contribs) 01:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately most of the materials are not inEnglish. Rest assured though, the bulk of the editors who have been contributing have been checking the sources and know the languages.Bandurist (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Reference #1 "France Meslè et Jacques Vallin avec des contributions de Vladimir Shkolnikov, Serhii Pyrozhkov et Serguei Adamets – Mortalite et cause de dècès en Ukraine au XX siècle" is in French even though a English version is available. Bobanni (talk) 02:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you get a link to the English version? If so, please change it. Ostap 02:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Done!Bobanni (talk) 08:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Mortalite et cause de dècès en Ukraine au XX siècle" - this book available only in French - regarding english article - it's shorter and less detailed.Jo0doe (talk) 10:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Procurement section

Dear editors, what is your opinion to add 2 more new sections:

passive resistance of the peasants - based on FT article. [3]

and Procurement practice about "contractation" system ru:Контрактация which demands 1/3-1/4 of estimated yeild from grain production areas (e.g. most of Ukraine) and does not regard the actual figures and 1/8 of estimated yield for non grain production areas (reason why other areas were less affected - Chernigivska and Nothern part of Vinnitska, Kyivska oblasts) Jo0doe (talk) 10:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The "procurement section" in general is unclear to an average reader interested in the topic, and should be deleted because it does not add to the quality of the article.

As an example, see the following sentence: While later Stalin’s blame statistical and planning authorities for incapability to estimate yield properly, such causes also given as a reason for creation a “Commissions for yield estimation” in December 17, 1932 – by Stalin initiative. It has no subject to which the verbs refer to and it is unclear what the causes are and why is a commission for yield estimation important to be mentioned? This sentence and presumably the entire paragraph is from Soviet Agricultural Encyclopedia 2-nd edition 1939 Moscow, which is not an authoritative source given the fact that it was the Soviet government and specifically under Stalin's direction that the army sealed off areas where people starved.--Riurik^(discuss) 17:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Many of the recent additions to this article make no grammatical sense at all. Ostap 21:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, then it is the responsibility of wikipedia community to make sure new additions do not decrease the comprehension level of the article. Thanks for replying; at first I thought I wasn't reading it right or missing something.--Riurik^(discuss) 21:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

More detailed about how important was to mentioned here a procurement practice and yield estimation you can find at R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft, "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933 (The Industrialization of Soviet Russia)", Palgrave Macmillan, 2004 and in Tauger works regarding Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933. Also would be useful to read Stanislav Kulchytsky article of 1989 in “Science and Society” Jornal #7, 1990, 1991 articles. As far as I can see you are adepts of “frozen meat of Kulak” conception and don’t like to have in this article full well sourced facts except fantasy about “army sealed off areas where people starved”. So I explain you importance of this topic. You can see plan was 4751.2 thousand tons, peasants – 1080 i.e. expected harvest should be ~ 20 -22 million tons. While, during harvesting at Agricultural and Planning authorities provide the info what in Ukraine was not so bad as in reality was. Thus lowering of procurement plan was not significant, but still were no grain. Ok. Were is the grain – OGPU will find it. As by early December OGPU prepared a report with huge number of pages [4] that grain was predominantly stolen by kolhozes heads and other type of kolkhozes managements (in fact it was semi-truth). So until end of January Stalin demand find the miracle until he got a proven reports that there was a real hunger in Ukraine. So Stalin slightly “purge” Agricultural and Planning authorities – and create directly responsible to him commissions – and there was no hunger in USSR while such commissions were established – i.e. in winter 33/34 and so on till 1937.

As regards to “Soviet Agricultural Encyclopedia 2-nd edition 1939 Moscow, which is not an authoritative” – I’ve used from it procurement quota data, reasons of commissions establishing, and Stalin blames – rest from mentioned above modern sources. Reason – not to whitewash Stalin but mentioned other factors which were hiden in Khruschev era, because those directly responsible for falsification of data which inflicted harsh actions were rehabilitated. Jo0doe (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC) also what about "Elimination of Ukrainian cultural elite" - ? Does it related to Holodomor? Jo0doe (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the accusations and labeling you exhibit above, and request you cease this type of behavior in the future. The above explanation is still not clear on why a section on "procurement", and especially in the shape it currently is in, should be part of Holodomor? Also note that it is possible to whitewash "subject xyz" by mentioning too many factors that may not be directly relevant, if relevant at all. Lastly, there is a very distinct and real connection between the artificial starvation of millions of Ukrainians, and its cultural elite. --Riurik^(discuss) 22:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned the factor mentioned by mainstream historians (see names above) so your action assumed as vandalism - blanking. Could you please provide very distinct and real connection here Jo0doe (talk) 16:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, you should stop throwing accusations around. We're here to make this a better encyclopedia, not indiscriminately include everything, especially in the form this is. Answer the concerns mentioned above to settle the issue.--Riurik^(discuss) 21:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note (cite) which accusations I've throwing around? I agreed what my English it's diffult to read - but your reasons of removal "it is possible to whitewash "subject xyz" by mentioning too many factors that may not be directly relevant, if relevant at all" are inconsistent – because mainstream historians mentioned that fact what overestimation of yield caused the unreal demand of grain from kolkhozes and peasants. Removal of important for article information called WP:Vandalism – blanking. Also it describes why hunger badly affected predominantly ONLY grain production areas (sugar-beat areas hunger - suffered from lack of centrally supported food) but rest with less extent (Northern areas of Kyivska, Vinnytska, Chernigivska etc). Thus it’s data is very important to article – until you are able to provide any reasonable argument against (exclude)

Still you’ve not provide the link between Holodomor -33 and Ukrainian elite – does they starved to death in 1933? What about Hunger at winter 1931/32 and spring 1932 – does any “assault on Ukrainian national culture” exist? Moreover mentioned below sentence – it’s clear POV - OR

This "defeat" encompassed not just the physical extermination of a significant portion of the Ukrainian peasantry, but also the virtual elimination of the Ukrainian clergy and the mass imprisonment or execution of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers and artists.

1933 at the height of the terrifying purge of the CP(b)U

The Communist Party of Ukraine, under the guidance of state officials like Kaganovich, …, boasted in early 1934 of the elimination.

??? Kaganovich??? At CP(b)U in 1934? – false

Ukrainian music ensembles had their repertoires severely restricted and censored. Foreign tours were canceled. –

? May be only one tour far before from Holodomor-33 - ? “Severely restricted”?? Nothing personal – they should play what they paid for.

Many artists were arrested and detained often for months at a time.

Please state – how many, compared to which figure  ? otherwise it’s POV.

After not receiving any pay for many months many Choirs and artistic ensembles such as the Kiev and Poltava Bandurist Capellas ceased to exist. –

You do not explain the reason of “not receiving any pay” nor state about some of them reinstatements when management crisis (capital relocation) was calmed.

Blind traditional folk musicians known as kobzars were summoned from all of Ukraine to an ethnographic conference and disappeared – still there not NPOV data about this case.

Interesting but still there no archival documents from many times ago opened archives - not for conference nor for blind kobzars. – “Frozen meat of Kulaks” as is. Objection? Reliability is a MUSTJo0doe (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You have accused/insulted me of at least two things, which are without any basis: 1. "you are adepts of “frozen meat of Kulak”" and 2. that I engaged in "vandalism". I am not going to waste my time arguing with you about the procurement section. It is incomprehensible, and while in a large volume such as a book, this topic may be discussed at length, here it does not add value to the main topic.--Riurik^(discuss) 21:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably you forgot what specifically “under Stalin's direction that the army sealed off areas where people starved” and “frozen meat of kulak” has a same origin – Conquest&Mace, so it’s not accusation - it’s simply facts mentioned as far as you prefer non reliable propaganda instead of facts. 2) Removal of important fact described as vandalism in VP – I assume you prefer LoC version [5]? Any reply about cultural elite and Holodomor? Once again - what's wrong with procurement section? More details pls Jo0doe (talk) 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Holodomor as "see also Hunger Plan"

Would be interesting to have a logical explanation from Piotrus. I recently look at archival documents for 15 cavalry regiment of GPU ("Kyiv's") in – 1933 – interesting story especially in terms of “encircling by NKVD troops” conceptionist .Jo0doe (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are asking for, but both plans resulted in mass starvation in Ukraine, so they are similar in that regard.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Which and what plan? In article mentioned what Nazi unable to implement such plan – simply because they don’t have nor time nor resources. Lenigrad blockade example in article – clear POV and OR because such ordered by Hitler directly.

Anyway, any plan exist for Holdomor-33? – something new discovered in archives ?! Please provide WP:PSTS with WP:V – would be interesting o read . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo0doe (talk • contribs) 11:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

“There is no international consensus”

One of the things that puzzled me at the first paragraph is the sentence above. Well, I think that no major event in human historiography got real “international consensus”, since there is always one or another nationalist, polemicist, apologist, denier or whatever that does not agree with some subject. So it seems like that the paragraph can make someone think that there is a 50%-50% of opinions “pro” and “against”, when it seems like the proportion is in fact 90%-10% in favor of the “pro” camp. As far as I know, the 26 nations that recognized the Ukraine Mass Famine as genocide include many developed, western and democratic countries — including the United States. Generally, criticism of the case of the Holodomor comes basically from Russia, Russophiles and Communist sympathizers... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.172.177 (talk) 14:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Trolling ? If not - United States as State still not recognize events as genocide as also as rest “many developed, western and democratic countries” and International organizations such as UN and UNESCO. Report to Congress before join the “Genocide convention” by US and mentioning Ukraine Great Famine in documents which will related to some actions does not mean “recognize”. Also WP:talk page it’s a not right place to use a xenophobic approach. Jo0doe (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? What xenophobic approach is he using? You are aware that you have made far more outrageous and xenophobic statements? Will you please go back to vandalizing the Russian-nationalist wikipedia and leave this one alone? Ostap 21:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV

Also would be useful to mention the origin of “7 million to 10 million innocent lives” –в обращении участников упомянутого выше «круглого стола» к Президенту Украины и к украинскому народу, а также в обращении VIII Всемирного конгресса украинцев (Киев, 21 августа 2003 года) к правительствам и народам мира утверждается, что голод в Украине унес жизни от 7 до 10 млн. человек. Я участвовал в роботе «круглого стола» и был свидетелем того, как «выводилась» эта цифра. В проекте обращения, зачитанного организаторами, называлась одна цифра — 10 млн. лиц. Николай Жулинский запротестовал и предложил назвать цифру, чаще всего фигурирующую у публицистов — 7 млн. лиц. Участники «круглого стола» согласились с ним (кроме меня, поскольку я утверждаю, что демографическая статистика выводит всех нас на цифру в два раза меньше). Когда конгресс обсуждал документ «круглого стола», решили назвать цифру жертв голодомора в диапазоне от 7 до 10 млн. лиц. [6]

see WP:NOT#SOAPBOX for that case. Jo0doe (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Stalin said: “ten millions”

Excerpt from a Time Magazine 1953 article published shortly after the death of Stalin:

“ Back in 1931, when Stalin was ruthlessly liquidating the kulaks in his drive to collectivize the land, he gave one of his rare interviews to outsiders. His guests were George Bernard Shaw and Lady Astor. As always, Nancy Astor was forthright : “When are you going to stop killing people?” she asked Stalin.

“When it is no longer necessary,” Stalin replied. “Soon, I hope.”

Eleven years later, in the dark war year of 1942, on Churchill’s last night in Russia, Stalin invited Churchill to his quarters for drinks. After the drinks, after an improvised but excellent dinner with fine wines, and after the ice was broken, Churchill got Stalin to talking about the bloody liquidation of the kulaks.

“Ten millions,” said Stalin, holding up his hands with stubby fingers extended. “It was fearful. Four years it lasted.”

”

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.172.177 (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Trolling ?

If not - Mean someone in witch hunt years said? So archival data said about: According to the declassified data, around 300,000 peasants Ukrainian SRR out of a population of about 30 million were subject to these policies in 1930–31. Ukrainians composed 15% of the total 1.8 million 'kulaks' relocated Soviet-wide. Moreover deportation does not mean “bloody liquidation of the kulaks” as someone would like to push. As regards to the collectivization - "As of beginning of October 1931 collectivization percentage reached: 68.0 of peasants households, 72.0 of arable lands." Thus, accordingly to Decree" all-over collectivization plan for Ukraine was accomplished (it does not demand 100% as someone would like to imagine) . So were is the reasons "to kill Kolkhoznics"? Jo0doe (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Cardinal Innitzer, Archbishop of Vienna report as of August, 19 1933

Should be noted what this Nazi-Clerics ([7][ http://mondediplo.com/1998/05/04vatican]) started the propaganda campaign which lasted almost 2 years.

Your usual selective misrepresentation of information, smearing Innitzer as a "Nazi cleric." In the 1930's he was a big supporter of the anti-Nazi Austrian Engelbert Dollfuss. Following his infamous "Heil Hitler", used demogogically by you, he loudly proclaimed that Christ was the only Fuehrer, causing alot of trouble for himself by Nazi mobs: [8]. Faustian (talk) 21:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The main objective of campaign was allegedly claim what hunger and starvation exist at the date of reporting (they care a little about the past) - is already established that that catastrophe still obtains (August, 19 1933) , even at the time of the new harvest. It will in four months reach a new peakItalic text - he proclaimed. Most of modern mainstream historians agreed what the Mass hunger, famine and death were ended by beginning of July 1933 (in Southern region by mid of June). Thus, the soviet propaganda was true for 20 of August 1933 “ There is no cannibalism and, I may say, there are no Cardinals in Soviet Russia” as for current situation explanation – since they don’t speak about the past (as someone would like to expose). Luckily, but prognoses of Cardinal and their compatriots not fulfilled. Jo0doe (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Trolling? Ostap 01:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Not, but a report about early Nazi propaganda case which used outside the article about Nazi propaganda iself . Thus, such usage breached the WP policy.Jo0doe (talk) 09:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Use Of Holodomor and magnifying its scope

This image that you can find mid-way throw the text is certainly amazing ... No comment, that is to be uploaded on commons and shown here. http://www.partyofregions.org.ua/contrprop/resonance/47a32c05821b6/. --Kuban Cossack 13:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of the infamous and horrible image of children tied to a tree [9], alleged victims of UPA, who tuned out to be gypsy children murdered by their mother (described here in Polish: [10]). The fact that the particular image in the article you linked to is wrong doesn't mean the Famine didn't happen; likewise the fact that the image of the children didn't involve UPA, doesn't mean that children weren't murdered by UPA. Either picture doesn't belong in its respective article.Faustian (talk) 21:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Faustian, you shoud note what exist very similar picture but with barbed wire. So you assume what gypsy mother in 1928 Poland used barbed wire? Jo0doe (talk) 10:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The barbed wire was from the photo being bent. Read the Polish analysis before reciting garbage. Bandurist (talk) 12:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed that photo. The issue of using the grisly images from 1921 to "illustrate" the events of 1933 in order to have a "visual impact" is notable but can well be covered without inserting a grisly image of corpses into an article which may actually make the article less read by some readers. We can very well insert a sentence about this phenomenon and reference it to sources where such images are shown with the original 1921 caption and "recaptioned" to misrepresent them as taken in 1933. This is noteworthy in its own right with or without an image. While at it, I removed other grisly images as well. This was discussed earlier. --Irpen 19:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Specially for Riurik

Riurik let me cite one of the most credible wikipedia editor (you recently awarded him) (however he also knowing for deliberately using WP as soapbox and twisting and falsifying data as also refs provided for such purposes).

As wikipedia editors our jobs are not to second-guess what historians tell us. Provided that the historians are recognized and legitimate their judgment regarding sources should be accepted. If you can find other historians (rather than, for example, propagandists or tabloids) that disagree with the facts presented, or original archival data, then by all means include that information as well in order to balance the article.

I highly recommend to read all mentioned below to fill themselves more confident with article you would like to improve.

[11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]

You can find answers on your entire questions.

• a) what was the procurement practice;

- mean demand of ¼ does not appeared eventually – it exist long time ago.

• b) and how that practice caused anything; it is also unclear how is this information relevant?)

- normal demand from non existed yield caused high and/or impossible demand from available sources. Also note rationing system existed at this time – in towns there almost no other source to get food rather than it – so fairytales about full of food towns and cities encircled by army from hungry and starved peasants – at more deserved for Canadian Manga rather then for WP.

I assume you don’t trust not to FT nor to Duranty? peasant resistance" did not cause holodomor; peasants did not like collectivization, but they are not stupid enough to starve themselves to death)

so find at links above words “собезівські настрої" Jo0doe (talk) 09:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit warring

Dear proponent of simplified version of history – please note what your recent edits described in WP:Vandalism or more detailed: Map of 1933 Ukraine – 1) it’s far more better quality and reliable rather then pictures of questionable origin (“Child victim of the Holodomor” – you can find same in Nansen collection – moreover his wear are not Ukrainian (mean Russian) and not relevant to 1933 (more match 1921-23) – however such fact is same difficult to acknowledge for some editors as quantum physics postulate)
2) If you like you can download more detailed one to WP:Commons [17] – since I don’t think what tiny details are so important. 3) Main important it’s a border and territory of 1933 – I assume some of editors prefer to see propaganda map – [[18]] Ukrainian SRR in never existed borders. So it’s would be perfectly match the relevant memorial [[19]] But NOT TO FACTS – which for WP is a must! So map are important to show for visitors a territory what article is about, as there a lot of faked "Holodomor map" widelly spreaded - thanks to Cold War and Diaspora which used this events for unclear personal gain
Recent edits called “Last change introduced grammar mistakes and awkward construction” – Please spend some time to read section in full –
1. see “rationing system” – was implemented in 1928 (but not in late 1932 as “right construction”).
2. transportation difficulties exist but major difficulties were an absence of goods to transport. Towns and cities starved because they don’t get planned milling levy and procurement quota from specially kolkhozes&sokhozes and in less extent from peasants.

Ridiculous - most of the Famine's victims were in the countryside.Faustian (talk) 04:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In fact, there is no point to reply when doing so would constitute accepting the introductory framing of a prospective discussant.--Riurik^(discuss) 05:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So I assume what someone prefer to have what there no malnutrition, starvation and death from hunger in towns and cities in 1932-33? Luckily it’s chapter not about countryside number of victims but about Holodomor in general.

So, please no OR and stick with referenced sources. Probably it’s a gap in Diaspora/recent Ukrainian education – but it should be noted what death indicator – it’s a ratio. So if taking into account what accordingly to overestimated figures by soviet authority there should be 7158K urban and 24742K of rural present population as of 1/1/33 in Ukrainian SRR (actually at least 1,500K less -) the number of death for 1933 in rural 1731,94 and urban areas 501,06 gives same ratio – 7%. That science called demography Faustian – it’s not a Manga for woodcutters. While secondary and primary sources reflect what malnutrition and hunger affected towns and population supplied through rationing system (also in rural areas) before then rural, and it happened because grain collection and milling levy plans were not fulfilled appropriately by kolkhozes, sovkhozes and peasants. Jo0doe (talk) 13:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

3. Not “original plan for 1932” – but triple time lowered plan – note the difference in figures. Once again - please read mentioned above sources before "improve" Jo0doe (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Disputed photo of map

File:UkrainianSRRmap1933 whitebg.JPG

The editors of this page need to come to a consensus about how to handle this picture. One group of editors feel this that the photo is of poor quality and unreadable. Another group feels that it outlines important boundaries. Depending on the consensus we will either DELETE the photo or KEEP the photo. Please vote: Bobanni (talk) 09:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest that rather than having another contest with voting along predictable lines, we leave the picture of the map until we can replace it with a better quality image of that map or another contemporary to the famine. If you click through to the highest resolution for the current picture, it's passably readable. —PētersV (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

• [20] that one - highest resolution one Jo0doe (talk) 17:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm opposed to using inferior images, especially of that size and without legends in English. Can you imagine downloading that with a dial-up? However, the version on Ru-wiki is much better, although still not readable for English-speakers, and I would not oppose using that temporarily to illustrate the borders.--Riurik^(discuss) 21:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

• Border given without any words - which legend you would like to have? It's only actual to current article - reasons described above many times. 213.159.245.174 (talk) 08:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree the Ru-wiki version is much better, I think that will hold us until we can get one in English. —PētersV (talk) 00:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Answer: map legends should be in English so to enable readers understand what they are seeing on the map.--Riurik^(discuss) 18:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps someone could be so kind as to translate the legend on the "Economic Map"? —PētersV (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is the ru-wiki map moved to Commons. Image:UkraineSSRMap1933.jpg.--Riurik^(discuss) 21:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is Holodomor Infobox repeatedly deleted??

'Bobanni (talk) 08:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

See belowJo0doe (talk) 14:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Info box as balalaika and matryoshka and bears with axes - part 2

As article related to event called Holodomor (mass death from starvation and related to malnutrition which took place in first half of 1933 – WP it’s not a mirror web-site for Nazi and cold war propaganda.

• Background Russian Revolution (1917) • October Revolution • Russian Civil War • Ukrainian-Soviet War • Prodrazvyorstka

I assume that listing refer to the whole knowledge of person about history of Ukraine? Sad, sad, sad. So many turnover important events missed, but timeline ended in 1921 – so how they related to first half of 1933? Ooops – you forgot to mention 1920-22, 24, 28 Drought – assume that events are also beleved to be inflicted by communists

Supporting policies Terror: Dekulakization • Article 58 (RSFSR Penal Code) • Enemy of the people • Russification • Population transfer in the Soviet Union • Kolkhoz • Collectivization in the USSR • Collective farming • Great Purge • Stalinism

I assume that listing refer to the whole knowledge of person about history of Ukraine? Sad, sad, sad picture. Supporting – clear OR. I assume author does not know what Ukrainian Penal Code until 1935 has a different number, Dekulakization was not terror in exact meaning of this word. Enemy of people – it’s 1937-38 common terms. What about agrarian overpopulation in Ukraine since beginning of century (Stolypin – as you know such name). Great Purge - 1937-38 events – Holodomor first half 1933 – however must be noted what most of directly and indirectly responsible for the situation in first half 1933 persons were sentenced to death in that years – really “interesting support” policy for them.

• Holodomor victims
• Famine: Malnutrition • Starvation • Hunger • Cannibalism

You mean what victims of holodmor are Malnutrition • Starvation • Hunger • Cannibalism ?

• Genocide: • Kulaks • Gulag • Great Purge •

I assume it’s all words you know – anyway better then balalaika and matryoshka. But which relation? Does Kulaks is a nation? Does the was exterminate in a whole as humans? Genocide of Gulag and Great Purge– so perfect sentences but senseless and even stupid

• Responsible parties: Soviet Union: Joseph Stalin • Vyacheslav Molotov • Communist Party of the Soviet Union • Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic • Stanislav Kosior • NKVD • Cheka

What a perfect construction Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic responsible for hunger in Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. How many times I can repeat – there no NKVD since 1930 till 1934. If you like you can create a separate article for GPU and Ministry of Justice (Militia was under command of such authority)

Cheka? Dismissed in early 20-s! Responsible for Holodomor?.

Holodomor Denial Soviet Union: Pravda • Izvestia • Walter Duranty • The New York Times • Louis Fischer • The Nation • Communist Party USA • Jeff Coplon • Douglas Tottle • OR as is – please visit library (read more then 3 book) before making any attempts to deal with history.

Info box will be ok - if it will have a reliable and related to event data and info. Please read more books firstJo0doe (talk) 14:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I slightly edited the comment above to remove the comments on the editor leaving the comments on the infobox content intact. Two things: infobox, at least in the current state, seems more like a soapbox, and is detrimental for the article. In general infoboxes in complex topic articles are a usually a bad idea as there are often no simple answers that can be reduces into an infobox entry. The nuanced and complex issues are best covered in the text body. Second, everyone, (you hear me Joe?) should stop right now the attempts to offend editors. The overwhelming majority of the editors of this articles are not trolls and should be treated with respect. Please don't "express your disagreement{ with the last point. Just reduce commenting on contributors to as little as possible. --Irpen 18:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is copied to Template talk:Holodomor. --Irpen 16:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit war on map, procurement, etc., offensive talk page entries and summaries

Dear colleagues, let's chill it out.

On map: having a map that would reflect the 1933 situation is very important, especially in view that the administrative borders of Soviet Ukraine were very fluid. Note that the article has another map, uploaded by me, showing the Ukrainian population losses, where much different than 1933 Ukraine is shown. This may illustrate the quality of the work of the map's compilers but that's a separate issue. If the quality of the map offered by JoeDoe is unsatisfactory to some, anyone with skills and time is welcome to make a map using the guidelines at WP:MAP. I don't have such skills but perhaps other active editors do. You may want to ask user:Greggerr who has interest in the topic and, in one of his previous username incarnations, showed great interest in maps. Until we have a better map, this one is better than none.

On procurement: the section, especially in the exact form pushed by JoeDoe is poor but the information there is relevant. It should be shortened and rewritten. I don't think that the wholesale removal is the best solution.

Summaries: I don't know why this has to be repeated time and again. Using the V-word in the summaries over the article's content is unacceptable. No one here is vandalizing an article. Joe should stop calling his opponents vandals. Same applies to the rest of us. A while ago, and in another article, MZajac battled this by pledging to revert any edit with the v-summary on sight regardless of what he thinks of the edit otherwise. It worked. I hope it won't be necessary here but I am considering this possibility.

Finally, whoever comments on contributors here, weakens his position regardless of how much it is otherwise borne on facts. Worse, offensive talk may bring sanctions up to blocks. We have already heard what some here think of each other. However, no one is going anywhere. So, please tone it down. --Irpen 19:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In reply, the map is ok for the time being (especially the ru-wiki one). However, it belongs in the main text, not at the top of the page. I can see how some parts of the procurement section can contribute to the quality of the overall article, but what we have now is gibberish. It is incoherent and in the end there is this empty feeling like, so what? How does it apply to the article. As such, I view it as detrimental to this entry and will delete it until it is improved.--Riurik^(discuss) 19:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I also think we're OK on the map for the time being (ru-wiki version) and there's no reason not to place it in the most appropriate spot. I'm not adept on how to cross-link to other-language WP content, so apologies for not having done that (I see the map's now disappeared again).

   Unfortunately, to Riurik's point, I have had to delete some of Jo0doe's edits as simply incomprehensible. So, to Jo0doe, if you can focus your conversation and associated edits on smaller sections of content and not require Irpen's removing your unfortunate comments about mental health, perhaps we could make some slower but steadier progress on some of the references you have brought to the table.

   Irpen, I can only trust your actions on Jo0doe's behalf reflects your genuine support of a less strident 2008. No further observations. :-) —PētersV (talk) 19:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I am in full agreement on the map, that it should be a ru-wiki version for now and it does not belong to the top of the article. I also agree with Riurik that the "procurement" section in its current form is unacceptable. We should rewrite it such that it covers the pertinent info but is readable. That the information held by the authorities as well as their expectations were different from the facts on the ground is highly relevant as to why certain actions where ordered as confirmed by D&W inclusion of this info in their book on the hunger. What goes on now, the slow edit war going on for weeks with some editors adding it and some simply removing it, is just a useless waste of time and pollution of the article's history.

Joe can't just miraculously improve his English. What needs to be done, is that he has to make an effort to present his text in some minimally comprehensible form and the rest of us make sense of it and bring it to an acceptable quality making sure it conforms the sources. Joe, please consider presenting your text in Russian or Ukrainian (with refs) at your talk page. There are several editors, myself included, who can make a sensible translation.

Speaking of writing comprehensibly, I cannot make sense of the last paragraph of Vecrumba's comment above, but since this paragraph seems to be about myself rather than the article's content, I am not too worried. --Irpen 21:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent event

Dear editors thank you for your patience and understanding regarding my recent misconduct. But you should be aware what my irrelevant to WP words relied mostly to author of “Black Dead of Kremlin” rather then wpedian (I assume Bobbanie). However it reflect a similar reaction if on history lesson on question “Alexander The Great is …” answer will be “a movie were Mr.X played with Mr.Y …”. Also I don’t mind a reasons (spring/autumn fluids) which caused removal of map which appeared there since October/November 2007. I also don’t mind which section instead of lead will be correct for it – since it reflect territory and borders which all rest wording about, same situation with third by version (bad quality, non important etc) “non-English issue” claims – it does not reflect anything excluding borders – so someone can get it in any graphical editor and replace light grey borders with green and add a big lettered English names of regions (only 7 words needed) – so everyone would be happy – as current legend noted only for cotton plants areas (mostly don’t know what such exist before erection of “North-Crimea channel” in early 50-s). Ukrainian SSR in early 30-s it’s definitely not the same what it was in early 90-s – so things which seen as awful now – does not such in much instances in 30-s. As for example from registered death in 1927 for Ukrainian SRR more than half were children at age 0-5 – and that does not mean what bloody communists regime exterminate Ukrainian children – since it a quite reflect to the World situation in general (medicine, sanitation, mothercare etc). Also as regards to two continually deleted chapter and modified wording – that’s also facts which described in referenced WP:RS – I really don’t mind what’s wrong.

• Passive resistance of the peasants

I agree what majority of peasants does not want starved themselves to death (however archival data reported about many cases when peasant and/or their family starved while after found what they have a significant for that time quantity of food) they simply find a better than current place in life. But such migration caused the facts when harvested areas significantly declined as also a harvest. Thus we need to note the situation at cities – so workers and their families should die (as in fact happened) because someone somewhere don’t want to work because head of kolkhozes redistribute his grain between own family and friends. Also we should note what Gulag prisoners and deported kulaks also supplied through same source – kolkhozes and the facts what in 1933 there was a significant increasing of death rate amongst that “contingent” – diseases inflicted by malnutrition. Generally speaking: actions and inactions of kolkozniks and peasants provoked by mismanagement and inadequate actions by local and central authorities responsible for agriculture and planning

• Procurement and yield estimation practice

Closely relayed to above – because them inflict such action – and that was noted many times in 30-s (Perfect example – Agricultural Encyclopedia 1&2-nd edition (31-40) – it’s repeated many times in many articles) Authority planned and demanded increasing of harvest – because kolkoz system anyway has more productive ability rather than private peasants in 30-s. But care a little to manage that system proper (however it was a general management chaos in early 30-s) but in same time on their paper was almost right - in if were something a little wrong – “no, it’s not us – it’s actions of kulaks, agents etc). So 1932/33 was a crucial points for such practice. However would be wrong to state what Stalin does not knew about such practice – yes, he knew and write about such to Molotov&Kaganovich in summer 1932 but his action for reformat the management& planning system was too late. So the peasant resist (in majority) not to kolkhozes themselves as such but to the way of how they were managed and how income of them were distributed amongst kolkhoz members. So when the management and it habit was changed – situation dramatically changed. Almost forgot what in 1935 and 1936 was a significant drought and harvest shortage – but there no hunger – because system was managed more adequately. Why it not mentioned at later historian works – I assume because of Stalin’s words at 1934 Congress where he mentioned what that was a “fault of Communists Party”. Since Party can’t be wrong in Khruschev era all dead dogs were placed on “Stalin and Stalinists” and in same time reinstate “good names” of many directly and indirectly responsible for 1932 and 1933 situation.

• Soviet Sovkhozes general fault of 1933

Also important point omitted by most of historians (I’ve read only few POV works on that topic). As probably you know or don’t know what after 1927/28 yield collection difficulties Stalin ordered to created state grain and meat enterprises – sovkhozes which (accordingly to his initial vision) should deliver 100 million of poods of grain in 1932 – but it happened only in 1935 while in 1932 their production results were disastrous since despite the significant amount of most modern agricultural mechanism the management and planning in many of them was below zero level. But the most worst was that what they seed from 1930 wheat on same areas and even without fertilizers (I even don’t spoke about “revolution methods” such as “неглубокая вспашка» – agriculture it’s also a science anyway and has own law and order which cannot be override. And despite so much expected 100 millions of poods in 1932 they get more then 25% and meat even 50% less but initially on papers was everything is Ok while in real life not.

In general, it’s look logical – 1920 and 1921 significant yield shortage – hunger 1921/22; 1924 shortage but 1925 not – no hunger; 1927 (insignificant) and 1928 yield shortage – hunger (more malnutrition) 1928/29; 1931 and 1932 yield significant shortage – 1932/1933 hunger but for last one human action adds additional casts. Reliable Facts and no more propaganda, counterpropaganda, myths, deceptions, populism, playground for politicians and PR-agencies . Jo0doe (talk) 16:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

“Ukraine according to Ukrainian delegation on Paris Peace Conference, 1919”

Thanks to Riwnodennyk, we’ve here a perfect example of deception which ukr:Wiki full of. So, if we more detailed look at this non-English, low resolution and poor quality image (there are you, Rurik?) we can see what it has a traces of strange editing –see Romania.

Also I really like that version of French transliteration: Kyiv (Kiev), Tchenyhiv (Tchernigov), Neijine, Lviv (Leopol), Peremychl etc. At same time no “old” typing not for Kharkov nor Nikolayev.Very interesting city Elisabetgrad and Katarinoslav. Unfortunately Chernivtsyy unreadable. Also I was unable to locate Vinnitsa, Bila Tserkva, Vasylkiv etc but between Nijyn and Bachmach I’ve found Kruty – very important place for Paris Peace Conference, 1919 map allegedly claimed for Pinsk, Brest and Kobryn as Ukrainian Republic territory – I even not spoke about North Caucasus – so wide imagination and below 0 knowledge of history. So I’ve no farther comments about origin, reliability and quality for WP of this map. Moreover how can be reliable map of unknown origin, author and publishing office? So, It’s another “frozen meat of Kulak” and thus must be removed from WP.Jo0doe (talk) 14:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the map. --Irpen 05:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Explanation for deletion

Please advice me what's wrong with Financial Times as WP:RS and with so beloved by Western Diaspora Mr. Gareth Jones? What's wrong with Tauger, R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft and Soviet Agricatural Encyclopedia Edition 1 and 2 as WP:PSTS?

They did not mention "NKVD and army which encircled full of food towns"? Probably they don't represent Toronto vision on history, but WP do not oppose to such.

What's wrong with Ukrainian sovkhsozes - don't they belong to agriculture 1932? Almost 0.5 M of Ukrainian sovknozes grain - it more then 150K tons more then bhole Soviet export in 1HY of 1933.

What's wrong with "Development of the Ukrainian SRR Economy" . Kyiv-1949 Ukrainian Academy of Science publishing as WP:PSTS?

Please explain why you do not remove non-English, low resolution and poor quality image, unknown origin, author and publishing office map allegedly claimed as 1919 map of UR?

As regards to 1933 map location - Collectivization section it's wrong place for it - becouse (I assume you know such facts) what between 1927 and 1932 there a lot of changes in Ukrainian SRR territory (same reason why I remove WP link from oblast name).

So map (as depicted the territory and time which all artilce are about )- should be at the lead, end even after 1921/22 image - it will takes more time to search picture in archive rather then document.

And please beleve me, what I definitely prove the fact what "child victim of Holodomor" is a picture of child victim of 1921/22 Famine. Please read a books (or link what I've provided above) rather then implement "desired history" Jo0doe (talk) 08:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding map location, this is an article about the Holodomor, not about borders of Ukraine in 1930s, so the map (this one Image:UkraineSSRMap1933.jpg belongs anywhere in the article, BUT the lead section. Regarding everything else, I don't care for your droppings on wikipedia. You are biased, and have lost any sense of reasonableness long time ago. No good faith needs to be assumed with people like you. The content you keep reinserting is poor quality and selective to advance your agenda, even if some of it as Irpen has pointed out may have merit after processing and proper contextualization.--Riurik^(discuss) 18:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I want to know what the "Toronto vision on history" is? Ostap 19:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And I'm curious why there was no "Canadian woodcutter" section in the Manga department at my local bookstore. When I asked the bookseller if there was any manga by Canadian woodcutters, I just got a strange look.Faustian (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I had the same experience! Ostap 00:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It’s pity to know what you don’t know Diaspora history – so let me remind you what most of Ukrainian migrant’s by early 50 mostly employed at wood industry – as woodcutters (at least at Canada and Australia) or in mining industry . So in 1953 in Philadelphia newspaper America published a series of manga about UPA (I assume most of readers suffered a difficulties with English), which were reprinted in 1971-72 editions of “Krylati” magazines and now (2005) in Ivano-Frankivs region. So please fill free to use Google. And also I assume recent events like breaching a one of WP rule – because terms “Manga” belongs to my other edits.

Since you can’t provide any reasonable arguments (scholars works) to oppose “The Financial Times”, “Development of the Ukrainian SRR Economy" . Kyiv-1949 Ukrainian Academy of Science. Soviet Agricultural Encyclopedia Edition 1 and 2 and scholars mentioned before – I assume your reverts as WP:Vandalism blanking.

Moreover, I would like to thanks for Bobbanie for his recent map updates image:Hungersnot_ukraine.jpg – perfect example of deception campaign conducted in Ukraine since early 90-s (sole propose of such campaign it’s to revert attention of population from current situation in Ukraine, which also can be determined through Genocide Prevention Convention articles – prevention of childbirth and depriving the life conditions). So if you compare provided by Bobbanie map with real one (provided by me) image:UkraineSSRMap1933.jpg we can find what “bloody communist (predominantly Russians)” conducted genocide against Bessarabia territory (by the time under Romania occupation). If we compare a general border configuration – we can find what NKVD and army troops sealed borders which by the time belongs to Belarus and Russian Federation territories.

Moreover you can free to make an virtual tour by the exhibition Holodomor 2007 http://www.flickr.com/photos/27-35data/, where at least appeared more appropriate map of Ukrainian SRR (please note – map images are copyrighted by Ukrainian Authority - so you CAN’t upload it to WP).

Dear editors – please study history careful and update the WP accordingly to facts rather then propaganda editions and leaflets. Sincerely yours “biased, and have lost any sense of reasonableness long time ago” .Jo0doe (talk) 07:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realize that Toronto, the Canadian city with the largest number of post-World War II Ukrainian immigrants, had such a forestry industry. Even the Economy of Toronto article doesn't mention the woodcutting industry there. No doubt, however, the editors of that article engaged in deception as is. You have a lot to teach us.Faustian (talk) 15:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It is very difficult to comprehend JoeDoe's entries not just because if English but because they are so messed up in every possible way. Anyway, I can comment on what I can. Comments on editors (Riurik, Faustian) are not acceptable. Section titles with editors' names are not acceptable. I agree there are problems with image:Hungersnot_ukraine.jpg. First of all, it is copyrighted. It's from the Ukrainian school text book by Kulchytsky et al. Secondly, I expected better from Kulchytsky. The map includes Bessarabia as part of Ukraine indeed. Moreover, it speaks about the territories attached to Ukraine from interwar Poland as "returned". How are they returned? I fully understand this being presented as "unification" of Ukraine (Subtelny elaborates on this interpretation) but "returned"? How come? Anyway, this map cannot be used. --Irpen 05:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Short history lesson

While searching a WP a can’t able to locate reliable article about what hunger is really is. Diet, models anorexia , but not comprehensive explanation of that term extremely important for this article, for present understanding of past. So at least I was able to locate an almost perfect article from Big Soviet Encyclopedia 1-st Edition published in 1930 Vol.17 Article named Голодание is …понижение температуры тела, которого не может преодолеть даже инфекционная болезнь; замедление пульса до 40-50 ударов в минуту; расстройство пищеварения с наклонностью к запору; усиленное мочеотделение; боли в костях и мышцах; раздражительность, которая в дальнейшем сменяется полной апатией и безразличным отношением и к окружающему и к своему собственному состоянию. В тех случаях, где отсутствует возможность улучшить питание, болезнь продолжается около месяца (начиная от появления отеков) и кончается смертью. Но и в тех случаях, где голодание не доводит людей до «голодной болезни» оно влечет за собой целый ряд тяжелых последствий. Истощенный голодом организм в значительной степени теряет сопротивляемость к инфекциям; этим объясняется обилие эпидемий в голодные годы (т.н. голодные тифы), распространению которых способствует апатия, безразличное отношение к окружающему, а отсюда нечистоплотность голодающих; учащение заболеваний туберкулезом, притом в самых тяжелых его формах; повышенная наклонность ко всякого рода гнойным и септическим заболеваниям. При длительном голодании наблюдается расстройство половых функций как у мужчин, так и у женщин (половое бессилие, прекращение менструаций, бесплодие, выкидыши). Длительное голодание разрушительно воздействует на психику: в тяжелых случаях дело доходит до самых разнообразных психических заболеваний, полной атрофии общественных и семейных инстинктов, людоедства и т.п. В более легких случаях наблюдается указанная выше раздражительность, или же, наоборот состояние угнетения, апатия, ослабление внимания и памяти, затруднение понимания и мыслительной способности. Особенно тяжело отражается голодание на детях: среди голодающих детей особенно сильно распространяются всевозможные инфекции и во время голода наблюдается массовое их вымирание. Помимо этого, длительное голодание родителей является существенным фактором вырождения, пагубно отражаясь на потомстве: дети родившиеся у голодающих хилы, малорослы, неустойчивы в борьбе с инфекциями и проч. Все эти последствия длительного голодания, если оно принимает массовый характер, значительно изменяет картину движения населения, вызывая уменьшение рождаемости и колоссальное повышение смертности; так например, повышение смертности в голодающих губерниях в 1921-22 годах выражалось в следующих цифрах (см.табл. ст.468). При этом надо заметить, что наибольшее повышение смертности падает на экономически слабые части населения. Так например, число смертей на 100 человек в год по Воронежской губернии в 1921-22 распределялось: для многопосевных – 2,3, среднепосевных – 7,7, малопосевных -11,0, беспосевных – 23,2. Голодание и его последствия приковывают к себе внимание лишь тогда, когда принимают характер необычайного народного бедствия (во время войны, неурожая). Не следует однако забывать, что в условиях капиталистического строя голодание является постоянным уделом громадных масс населения, но только называется оно мягче – недоеданием. Последствия его от этого, однако, не меняются, и мы видим, как от голода и сопровождающих его болезней вымирают целые народы в колониальных странах, видим, как в культурных странах систематическое голодание влечет за собой громадную заболеваемость и смертность среди взрослых и особенно детей, физическое и духовное вырождение среди наиболее обездоленных: безработных, неквалифицированных рабочих беднейшего крестьянства.

So if someone will be able to include such info for en:WP – it’s especially important because it based on 1921-22 Famine evidence and scientific assessments and works.

Also some important notes as for current Independent Ukraine situation – similarity in : учащение заболеваний туберкулезом, притом в самых тяжелых его формах (epidemical situation since beginning of 90-s); уменьшение рождаемости и повышение смертности (see http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua for details); дети родившиеся у голодающих хилы, малорослы, неустойчивы в борьбе с инфекциями (almost all Ukrainian newborn has a healthproblem); физическое и духовное вырождение среди наиболее обездоленных (more then 100K of orphaned children in Independent Ukraine. And small WP:OR Moreover, at least can be found a medical reason for especially western Ukrainians conducts during WWII (Poles, Jews and Ukrainians extermination in sadistic way) since most of them were “неквалифицированных рабочих беднейшего крестьянства” while in Poland during 1922-39 registered many case of difficulties with food and especially amongst Ukrainian peasantry. So, there no surprise if в тяжелых случаях дело доходит до самых разнообразных психических заболеваний. Moreover it notable what older people in western Ukraine is shorter then in East - хилы, малорослы. Sincerely yours “biased, and have lost any sense of reasonableness long time ago”Jo0doe (talk) 17:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

2-nd Short history lesson

About sovkhozes – why it’s important to note – because through it Stalin planned to secure the situation on grain market - as for instance compensate undersupply from kulaks (~1,65 million tons of grain) in 1926/27. However despite overoptimistic planning for 1931 and 32 – see figure below – they got 3,5 and 4,5 times less respectively. So in 1932 they has no kulaks grain, no sovkhozes grain, but significant increase of rationing supplied population (cities, non-grain sovkhozes and kolkhozes and even 1,8 mln of deported kulaks)… Any questions, pupils? I assume some of you can be able to translate from unknown language some related facts and incorporate them into article.

Citation from July 10 1928 Central Committee decisions: 7. Правильная организация дела снабжения хлебом, не допускающая расходов сверх установленных планов и возлагающая ответственность за снабжение потребителей не входящих в общий государственный план на местный товарооборот и местных заготовителей".

Central Committee and Council Of Peoples Commissars of USSR Decree August, 1 1928

1. ....создать новые крупные зерновые советские хозяйства (зерновые фабрики) … с таким расчетом чтобы к урожаю 1933 обеспечить получение товарного зерна от этих хозяйств в количестве не менее 1,650,000 тонн (100 000 000 пудов). 8. Правительствам РСФСР и УССР предлагается немедленно приступить к выделению свободных земель для организации новых зерновых советских хозяйств в районах. Decree of Central Committee December 15 1928

10. Неуклонно проверять работу коллективных и советских хозяйств, поставив перед ними задачу добиться повышения их урожая к концу пятилетия в среднем на 60%.

From XVI Congress (June-July 1930) Decitions III О темпах коллективизации и задачах переделки сельского хозяйства … одни совхозы (старые и новые) дадут уже в этом году около 100 млн. пудов товарного хлеба, а в будущем году не менее 250 млн. пудов товарного хлеба..

VI USSR Councils Meetings Decree “ About Sovkhosez development” March 17, 1931 «О совхозном строительстве» … в 1930 сдали 72 млн.пудов зерна ІІІ Главнешие недостатки в работе совхозов Главнейшим недостатком в работе зерновых совхозов … является несвоевременная и плохая уборка урожая, что … привело к большим потерям зерна… Главнейшим недостатком в работе животноводческих совхозов является плохой уход за скотом, недостаточное ветеринарное обслуживание, что … привело к гобели значительной части молодняка… Многочисленные факты преступно-небрежного обращения с тракторами и сельскохозяйственными машинами со стороны работников совхозов и машинотракторных станций. IV Задания по развитию совхозов 3. Определить следующие размеры товарной продукции совхозов: В 1931 – 190-195 млн.пудов зерновых 6-6,5 млн.пудов мяса В 1932 – примерно 290 млн.пудов зерновых 20 млн. пудов мяса В 1933 – примерно 400 млн.пудов зерновых 45 млн.пудов мяса VI USSR Councils Meetings Decree “ About Kolkhozes development” March 17, 1931 «О колхозном строительстве» 3. б) проданная в 1930 г. Колхозами государству товарная продукция зерновых культур (460 млн.пудов) превысила более чем в 3,5 раза размеры товарного внедеревенского хлеба у кулаков в 1926/27 году (126 млн.пудов) и более чем в 1,6 раза довоенную товарную продукцию помечьего хозяйства (280 млн.пудов)

5. Благодаря этой политике победили мы голод.

20 июля 1931 года ПБ ЦК ВКП(б), рассмотрев вопрос о массовом выселении кулаков, сочло, что это стратегическое задание партии в основном выполнено. Все последующие высылки рекомендовалось осуществлять строго в индивидуальном порядке.

Decree of Central Committee August 2 1931

О темпах дальнейшей коллективизации и задачах укрепления колхозов

ЦК ВКП(б) постановляет: 1) Разъяснить, что мерилом завершения в основном коллективизации того или иного района или области является не обязательный охват всех 100% бедняцко-середняцких хозяйств а вовлечение в колхозы не менее 68-70% крестьянских хозяйств с охватом не менее 75-80% посевных площадей крестьянских хозяйств. 2) Считать в основном законченной коллективизацию: а) На Северном Кавказе (без некоторых национальных районов), где уже коллективизировано 88% бедняцко-середняцких хозяйств с охватом 92% крестьянских посевных площадей

…

г) На Украине (степь) где уже коллективизировано 85% бедняцко-середняцких хозяйств с охватом 94% крестьянских посевных площадей д) На Украине (левоборежье) где уже коллективизировано 69% бедняцко-середняцких хозяйств с охватом 80% крестьянских посевных площадей … з) В Молдавии где уже коллективизировано 68% бедняцко-середняцких хозяйств с охватом 75% крестьянских посевных площадей.

Central Committee and Council Of Peoples Commissars of USSR Decree August, 2 1933 О порядке засыпки фондов для нужд колхозов и распределении зерна между колхозниками по трудодням

В связи с тем, что некоторые колхозы уже выполнили годовой план поставки зерна государству СНК СССР и ЦК ВКП(б) постановляют: 3. Все зерно, остающееся в колхозе после выполнения ими указанных выше обязательств и упомянутых выше фондов, распределить полностью между колхозниками по трудодням. 4. СНК СССР и ЦК ВКП(б) напоминают еще раз, что никакие встречные планы по зернопоставкам не могут быть допущены и виновные в допущении встречных планов будут привлечены к уголовной ответственности.

Central Committee and Council Of Peoples Commissars of USSR Decree August, 18 1933 О порядке засыпки фондов для нужд колхозов … запрещено советским и партийным организациям своими распоряжениями создавать в колхозах дополнительные фонды и тем самым уменьшать количество зерна, подлежащего выдачи колхозникам по трудодням…

May, 5 1934 Постановление ЦИК СССР "О поpядке восстановления в гpажданских пpавах бывших кулаков".

From XVII Congress ВКП(б) (Jan-Feb 1934) minutes

Косиор: Поэтому вполне понятно, что допущенные КП(б)У в 1931—1932 гг. ошибки и прорыв в сельском хозяйстве отзывались тревогой в сердцах всей нашей партии. И то обстоятельство, что мы сейчас этот прорыв ликвидировали, является действительным торжеством всей нашей партии.

Постышев: если посмотреть ход хлебозаготовок 1932 г., то картина окажется еще более печальной, чем в 1931 г. Вместо 400 млн. пудов, заготовленных к декабрю 1930 г., и 380 млн. пудов — к декабрю 1931 г., к декабрю 1932 г. было заготовлено всего лишь 195 млн. пудов. ЦК КП (б) У трижды сокращал и без того уменьшенный план хлебозаготовок на Украине. И несмотря на все это, трижды сокращенный хлебозаготовительный план 1932 г. так и не был выполнен. Чем это можно объяснить? … КП (б) У понемногу выпускала из своих рук реальные, действенные, большевистские рычаги мобилизации масс и руководства ими и все больше скатывалась к методам голого администрирования и командования.

Надо прямо и совершенно определенно сказать, что репрессии были в эти прорывные годы решающим методом “руководства” многих партийных организаций Украины. Sincerely yours “biased, and have lost any sense of reasonableness long time ago”Jo0doe (talk) 16:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC) P.S. I would like to point your attention on two important issues: возлагающая ответственность за снабжение потребителей не входящих в общий государственный план на местный товарооборот и местных заготовителей (July 1928) and к декабрю 1932 г. было заготовлено всего лишь 195 млн. пудов.Jo0doe (talk) 16:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Deception

I realy love recent changes in article - Modern scholarly estimates of the direct loss of human life due to the famine range between 7 million [1][2] and 10 million[3] although much higher numbers are sometimes published in the media and cited in political debates.

Modern scholarly estimates of the direct loss of human life due to the famine range between 7 million Jo0doe (talk) 16:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC) Deseption in - ref given for 7 million relied to source mentioned estimated population losses (including migration ) in somewhere below 2,6 million. I knew one at least one most credible editor which played such games - at least at UPA artilce - Makivka and Black forest groups , Hurby battles etc Jo0doe (talk) 16:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, tell us what these Hurby battles are? Ostap 16:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to note that I corrected the anon's falsification and returned the numbers that reflect the references. This qualifies as subtle vandalism, the worst and most difficult to detect. --Irpen 20:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I reverted Bobbanni's reinsertion of political speculations from the lead. He added two sentences. That death toll ws "horrific" is a POV statement and means nothing without numbers. 1000 people is also horrific. I also removed Yushchenko's "estimates" from the lead. Yushchenko is not a scholar to make estimates. He sites wildy different numbers from one time to another. In WSJ article je wrote 10 mln. In his speech to the US Congress he said 20 mln (2/3 of Ukranian population): "the Holodomor famine that took away 20 million lives of Ukrainians"[21] Politicized estimates belong to the comprehension and politicizasion sections (where I added them two days ago) but not to the lead. --Irpen 05:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hungersnot ukraine.jpg

Irpen: "Hungersnot ukraine.jpg" is in "COMMONS" with appropriate copyright authorization. If you feel that the copyright is wrong please challenge it there. You cannot delete images you feel they are copyrighted. This implies that the editor who put it there violated a copyright. Needs more that just your say-so. Bobanni (talk) 06:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It has no place in commons, even if it is uploaded there under the false license, since it is copyrighted. It's from the Ukrainian school text book by Kulchytsky et al. I am no fan of going around tagging images for deletion and anyone is free to do that. We could still use it under some circumstances as fairuse if not several inaccuracies. The map includes Bessarabia as part of Ukraine and it speaks about the territories attached to Ukraine from interwar Poland as "returned". How are they returned? I fully understand this being presented as "unification" of Ukraine (Subtelny elaborates on this interpretation) but "returned"? How come? I expected better from Kulchytsky. Anyway, this map cannot be used. --Irpen 06:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is more reliable map [22] but figures still forged - misused213.159.241.222 (talk) 08:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• Border configuration still incorrect (more reflect pre 1939) - note borders with Belarus, Zapadnaya oblast of RSFSR and Bessarabia as also USSR-Polish border configurationJo0doe (talk) 10:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Few notes

• population of Soviet Ukraine between 1926 census (28,925,976) –

correct figures for 1926 Census – 29,019,747 while final data for 1937 Census does not exist – thus it would be incorrect and irrelevant to compare two different indicators – final for 1926 Census and preliminary available figures for 1937.

• Still, with the correction for this number, the total number of death in Ukraine due to unnatural causes for the given ten years was 3.238 million, and taking into account the lack of precision, especially of the migration estimate, the human toll is estimated between 3 million and 3.5 million.

In estimation missed one of most important factor - birth deficit. Conclusion: estimation of non-demographer. More relevant would be Vallin at al estimation

• According to estimates[65] about 81.3% of the victims were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars became victims as well. –

So actually no statistics on death nationality exist as before 1930 as after.

I really don’t know the reliability of “Many Crimean Tatars” victims – since they located almost exclusively at Crimea (not part of Ukrainian SRR in 1933) and they in general never were a grain producing peasants, as also there no reports about desperate satiation in Crimea in 1933 – bad but not as in Dnipropetrovsk region, for instance.

• the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.

until 1989 everyone knows, but none soapboxing that events – would be interesting what does it mean “deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years” – how deep (compared with ???) which Ukrainians (Diaspora, Ukrainians in ???), how many years?

• Criminal prosecution for withholding or bargaining of grain

Chapter names mixed wording of two different legislation acts: Law “About protection of the property of state enterprises, kolkhozes and cooperatives, and strengthening of the public (socialist) property” adopted August 7 1932 (СЗ. 1932. Ст. 360; Правда. 1932. 8 августа). And Decree “On fought with speculation” adopted August 22 1932. Thus sentence ”The unclear wording of the Decree lead to situations where acts by minor such as” is irrelevant to Low “About protection…”(someone continuously remove “On fought with speculation” adopted August 22 1932 for unknown reason

Since chapter included at least 6 Legislation acts of different origin – would appropriate to rename chapter into “Legislation practice” rather then clear POV

• Stalin personally appended the stipulation: "People who encroach on socialist property should be considered enemies of the people."

OR - see Stalin letters about such Low [23]

[24] [25] [26] - there no such info about “Stalin personally appended” Also interesting citation from 1931 Stalin letter - http://www.idf.ru/documents/info.jsp?p=21&doc=68 Картвелишвили и секретариат Грузцека своей безрассудной «политикой хлебозаготовок» довели ряд районов Западной Грузии до голода. Не понимают, что украинские методы хлебозаготовок, необходимые и целесообразные в хлебных районах, нецелесообразны и вредны в районах нехлебных, не имеющих к тому же никакого промышленного пролетариата. Арестовывают людей сотнями, в том числе членов партии, явно сочувствующих недовольным и не сочувствующих «политике» грузинского ЦК. Но на арестах далеко не уедешь. Нужно усилить (ускорить!) подвоз хлеба сейчас же, без промедления. Без этого мы можем схлопотать хлебные бунты, несмотря на то, что зерновая проблема уже разрешена у нас. Пусть немедля по получении этого письма ПБ обяжет Микояна усилить подвоз хлеба в Западную Грузию и лично проследить за исполнением5. В противном случае наверняка схлопочем политический скандал.Jo0doe (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Rough Translation (via computerized translation software)of above Russian comments. May not be 100% accurate;

---

Kartvelishvili Gruztseka secretariat and its reckless policy of "Yakov" has brought a number of areas of Western Georgia to starvation. Not understand that the Ukrainian methods Yakov necessary and appropriate in the areas of grain, inappropriate and harmful nehlebnyh in areas that do not have any of the same industrial proletariat. Arresting hundreds of people, including members of the party are clearly dissatisfied with sympathizers and supporters "not policy" Georgian Central Committee. But arrests can not go far. Needs to be increased (to accelerate!) The introduction of bread now, without delay. Without this we can to get bread riots, despite the fact that the grain had already resolved the problem with us. Let once on receipt of the letter PB oblige Mikoyan strengthen the introduction of bread to West Georgia and personally oversee ispolneniem5. Otherwise certainly shlopochem political scandal. Jo0doe (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

---

supplied by Bobanni (talk) 11:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Holodomor-33

Since this historical point of Soviet history during the time became a part of political games, propaganda and deception and especially Nazi big lie approach it’s definitely needed to provide in article all reliable “related factors” (which originate from WP:RS , WP:PSTS) (but not bandurists, frozen meat of kulaks, barges with children and "army and NKVD sealed towns"). In order to visitors can try to assess by themselves numerous of directly and indirectly related factors which caused a malnutrition, epidemic situation in many areas, hunger and starvation in winter – early summer 1933 in main grain producing areas of USSR (and especially in Ukrainian SRR) and undersupplied through rationing system towns and villages. Since there still no consensus among historians how lowest ever (almost half) grain procurement since 1929 and triple time lowest export of grain since 1930, despite most significant (since 1921-22) food aid to affected territories lead to situation at spring 1933. Every general related reliable information is important .Jo0doe (talk) 09:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your comments do not make any sense

• Holodomor predates Nazis
• What is "frozen meat of kulaks"?
• What do "barges with children" have to do with with the Holodomor.
• Yes there is a consensus among historians based on eye-witness testimony about where the grain went.

reverting your editBobanni (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean blanking as mentioned in WP:Vandalism? Please fill free to use an WP power to extend your knowledge about - 1930-33 At least you can find what Nazis come to power by end of January 1933. As regards to rest - please use Ctrl +F to search this page and find more exact details about meat and barges (Mace and Conquest respectively). You mean consensus between "NKVD at 1933" and "increased a grain procurement quota by 40%"? proponents - but they are not historians (or widely criticized for twisting, misusing and deception). Jo0doe (talk) 06:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey Jo0doe, when you revert and say "see talk page" you might want to, you know, actually say WHY you are reverting. It might be helpful. And please, no "frozen meat of kulaks" or "yellowcake uranium". Ostap 06:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ostap please read heading of this topic (and also unaddressed issued mentioned by me in several latest topic above) Jo0doe (talk) 08:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Your last sentence mean no Mace and Conquest and Cold War deceptions (CIA origin) or not?Jo0doe (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Numbers

I reverted Bobanni's insertion of dubious numbers. Conquest's guesswork made before opening of archival data is outdated. There is a section on that on this page above. D&W say 6 mln Soviet-wide, not just in Ukraine, thus giving a number consistent with other estimates for Ukraine. --Irpen 04:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Conquest&Mace got a plenty of archival data , but main target was decepion rather then found a truth. Also interesting facts - recently studied an International Military Tribunal documents and found what many “Holodomor victims eye-witness testimony ” directly reflect the details of Nazi crimes in Ukraine conducted with great assistance of Ukrainian militia, as for instance – shooting of diseased children, Ersatz coffee, starving to death in railway wagons, sank barges etc– all that exactly happened but in 1941-43 (see IMT Vol 2-7). So, they seen what they spoken about – it’s truth, but not only see – they assist in such. So I agree, on some points, with one of "denialist" “Ukrainian nationalist lobby straining to cloak its own history of Nazi collaboration” and “balanced analysis, however, has never satisfied Ukrainian nationalists in the United States and Canada, for whom the "terror-famine" is an article of faith and communal rallying point” [27].Jo0doe (talk) 10:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Please read all comments by User Jo)doe with a critical eye.--Riurik^(discuss) 17:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with looking Joe's comments critically! But back to the point. Joe would be better off pointing to his sources with the better precision.

And, most importantly, no matter what one thinks of Conquest's scholarly integrity, he did not, and could not, have the archival data in his disposal. He says so himself (please see the #Conquest.27s_guesswork section above) when he tries to "derive" the classified Soviet statistics indirectly using the papers published by the Soviet s, the papers which "he thinks" are based on the statistics that was made selectively open to the authors. --Irpen 21:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

MAPS

Map of the Ukrainian SSR in 1932-1937

Map of the Ukrainian SSR in 1932-1933 (7 Oblasts and Moldavian ASSR) administrative borders given in light grey

Which map is more appropriate for this article? Comments please.

Please fill free to know more about Ukrainian SRR here [28] - at least you can able to find what as for 1932 CIA map is unreliable as also for 1937 - objection? Jo0doe (talk) 07:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I returned a more exact map. --Irpen 02:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Misuse of Valin at al estimation and “horses picture”

2.582 million to excess mortality and voluntary out-migration. 2.582 million it’s estimated demographical losses due the exceed mortality and voluntary out-migration due for whole 1926-38 period. Moreover must be noted the Valin not used 1937 Census results at all because such results does not exist!

• It’s not direct deaths as the result of the 1932-33 famine about 2.6 million as mentioned in article – it’s clear OR.

However formula for Excess mortality= total registered mortality – normal estimated mortality: thus 2.6 mln figure is in general incorrect (or misinterpretation) as for exceed death for 1933 (note mentioned only one year but not beloved by politicians 1932-33) accordingly to Valin estimation it should be 2.2 mln excess mortality for 1933 (he used 0.433 mln as normal death figure and not used voluntary out migration factor at all). While normal death rate at least a 0.1 million higher and voluntary out migration for 1932 and 1933 was very significant – only underestimated losses for 1927-36 estimated as high as 1.343 million people.

• Conclusion: correct figure for lead must be a reliable figure - Modern scholarly estimates of the direct loss of human life due to the famine, malnutrition and related diseases in less then 2.2 million, although much higher numbers are sometimes published in the media and cited in political debates.
• As regards to “Horses in the time of Great Famine in Ukraine 1932-1933” – it’s a snapshot from “Harvest of Despair” propaganda film – originated from “1921-22 Food relief film by Red Cross” and depicted Lower Volga drought. So – ,please, remove deception Jo0doe (talk) 14:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Vallin's conclusions

I am now torn between the obligation to inform the readership of the full context of Vallin's conclusions and to respect the copyright of the publisher to the required by law extent. Therefore, I take it a liberty to present here one several sentences long quote from the "Conclusions sections" of the Vallin's paper. Whoever wants a full version, would have to contact me as I cannot post any more than this. So, here goes from the Conclusion section of the article by Jacques Vallin, France Mesle, Serguei Adamets, Serhii Pyrozhkov, "A New Estimate of Ukrainian Population Losses during the Crises of the 1930s and 1940s", Population Studies, Vol. 56, No. 3. (Nov., 2002), pp. 249-264:

This reconstruction offers a foundation for a better appreciation and understanding of the severity of the crises that befell Ukraine during the first half of the twentieth century. The 1926 Census enumerated 29 million Ukrainians, yet that of 1939 still reported fewer than 31 million inhabitants, to Stalin’s great displeasure. This very low population increase was a consequence of the major crises of the 1930s. Soviet policy in this decade left the Ukrainian population severely damaged. The disasters of the decade culminated in the horrific famine of 1933. These events resulted in a dramatic fall in fertility and a rise in mortality. Our estimates suggest that total losses can be put at 4.6 million, 0.9 million of which was due to forced migration, 1 million to a deficit in births, and 2.6 million to exceptional mortality. [Skip the WW2 losses discussion that gives: 13.8 million losses, including a net out-migration of 2.3 million, a deficit in births of 4.1 million, and a loss of 7.4 million due to exceptional mortality] [...] However, overall, the consequences of the Second World War were even worse: [...] The exceptional burden of the two major mid-century crises is clear to see.

So, Joe, "deception" in your misrepresenting the source, not my or any other editor's using it correctly. In fact, some editor's using Yushchenko's figures is a lesser deception since Yushchenko indeed said 7, 10 and 20 mln depending on the audience. Editors who insert Yushchenko's figures instead of the scholarly ones into the lead simply POV-push by giving to the numbers of political convenience the same weight as to the scholarly ones. You, however, simply misquote the source which is indeed subtle vandalism of the most difficult to catch kind.

As for the horses image, I am removing it as the authenticity is questioned and it does not add much content anyway. --Irpen 01:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me note your attention on his recent article [29] Few citation:

The 1933 famine cancelled out the 4 million person increase that had resulted from ten years of rapid population growth. … In 1933, he famine which had occasioned unparalleled excess mortality of 2.2 million (2), cut the period life expectancy to a low of under 10 years.

• Were (2) 2.6 million deaths in 1933 instead of the normal 433,000 to be expected from previous trends.

But, on my sought, book France Meslè et Jacques Vallin avec des contributions de Vladimir Shkolnikov, Serhii Pyrozhkov et Serguei Adamets – Mortalite et cause de dècès en Ukraine au XX siècle - more comprehensive source rather than magazines articles (your know – editor’s publication space limits (costs) etc). The “weakness” of “short” version originated from tends to be more understandable for majority of readers or in other words – try to describe complex situation with ordinary (known) words. As for instance he omit factors which also affected to natural population increase 1) hunger 1928/29 2) rationing system since 1928 till 1935 2) dekulakization and self-deculakization 3) industrialization 4) intensive migration process and at least at major part - famine. Scientifically would be incorrect to put all probable death excess (without explanations he omit voluntary out-migration for 1927-38 which he include in this figure in book version) only for 1933, since by such he omit exceed deaths of 1929, 32 and 1934 (as also migrate decrease for whole period 1927-38) – but that is not a mistake in general – because he not studied the Holodomor victims as such but demographical situation in Ukraine in XX century in general. However 2.2 figure will be more sourced (up to date) rather then 2.6 – do you agree? Jo0doe (talk) 07:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I need time to consume this info. Please be patient. I read two Vallin's papers, one in Population Studies, 2002, and one in Population and Societies, 2005 here and I see a discrepancy. I have no access to French paper now. We need to think how to present this. Patience please. --Irpen 05:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I read the abstract of the book and the it only says about a total of 4.6 million demographic deficit. I cannot see either 2.6 or 2.2 in the abstract. On a separate note, please do not insert unscholarly numbers in the lead by picking some "estimates of 7-10 million or higher are usually published in the media and cited in political debates.". Who says "usually" and why restrict to 10? There are all sorts of numbers around, all arbitrary. Here Yushchenko says 20 mln. --Irpen 08:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Section title

I bring it up again, the question title (Was the Holodomor genocide?) is unencyclopedic. I propose: "Holodomor as Genocide". Ostap 04:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I propose Politicization of Holodomor since the chapter covers not only the applicability of Genocide but other related things. --Irpen 05:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Not all of it involves politics either. Ostap 05:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as soon as one steps outside of analyzing archives to find what happened, and starts interpreting and characterizing that, it all becomes politics. We can do Comprehension and Politicization of Holodomor section and merge the two sections into one. They can use a good rewrite anyway. Whether or not Holodomor falls under the definition of Genocide is the realm of POVs rather than mere facts and is certainly part of the comprehension. --Irpen 05:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Procurement policy and Failure of Sovkhozes sections

I think the sections are highly relevant in the article about the famine. I do not know if the info there provide by Jo0doe is biased, but I cannot see how it can be reverted wholesale. The info is sourced to reliable sources and relevant. I am restoring it. Please discuss before removing the section again Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

For starters, neither section is readable. Ostap 03:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I offer the compromise. We <!---hide this non-readable stuff---> and edit it to something comprehensible. --Irpen 05:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Intresting how still exist articles about Genetics, Physics, Molecular Biology etc ?Jo0doe (talk) 13:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Science articles are readable at least for someone who is trained in the jargon. This is not readable period. I am not going to discuss insertions (although I gave it a try) with an editor who has shown a clear intention to push his selective views on history, and does not show good faith. The fact that the material is incomprehensible is only one problem. The rest is propaganda pushed using original research to question mainstream secondary sources.--Riurik^(discuss) 14:54, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• So , recent addition - Historians agree that the 1932-33 famine was engineered by Soviet authorities under dictator Josef Stalin to force peasants to give up their private plots of land and join collective farms is perfect - does author read what collectivization ended in 1931?

I assume NKVD and army once more against Financial timesJo0doe (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Solzhenitsin

I am not sure that Solzhenitsin's opinion is enough to be included under the discussion of whether the famine was genocide. He is certainly notable in the sense that he got a literature award from the Noble foundation. That does not necessarily translate that his opinion should feature as an explanation in the section. This is not his expertise, and he is speaking in the capacity of a Russian citizen rather than a scholar. Incidentally, his view is reflected in the paragraph on Duma and the official response by the government of Russia (which follows I believe the paragraph on the response by Ukraine's government). In short, don't see a reason to have Solzhenitsin opine at such length here. Perhaps a compromise can be reducing what he thought to a sentence and giving a reference for further reading.--Riurik^(discuss) 15:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Senile Solzhenitsyn is in no way an authority on genocide. His opinion is as notable as mine. There is no way he deserves an entire paragraph of propaganda. Ostap 16:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Solzhenitsyn was a historian as well as a Nobel prize laureate. "Senile Solzhenitsyn"? "propaganda"? We can see that you are obviously convinced it was genocide. Tone down the nationalist rhetoric, it's getting revolting.--Miyokan (talk) 11:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Riurik that a sentence or two makes sense. Solzhenitsin's opinion is important, but not as a historian or demographer. It belongs to the similar category as Yushchenko's claims or those of others, in my opinion.Faustian (talk) 14:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above as well. The whole paragraph dedicated to what Solzhenitsin said is indeed too much. He is a known Russian nationalist, his views should be taken with caution at least. His spurious accusation, contrary to facts, that it is presented as a Russian genocide against Ukraine sounds very much in tone with the ideas of the far right Russian nationalists, who exploit this controversy. There is not a single document, not a single statement by Ukrainian historians or officials, who accuse Russia of genocide, yet he seems to be paddling this nationalist fairy-tale. Besides, his recognition as well as a Nobel Prize are not for his contribution to history but literature, much less so in the area of Collectivization. His views on Stalinism and Russia's role are heavily criticised (see the article). Given his stature, his views do deserve mentioning, but not to such an unproportional extent. --Hillock65 (talk) 14:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Solzhenitsin is a historian, see Encyclopedia Britannica [30], we are not simply presenting his Nobel prize as his credentials. "Nationalist", "nationalist fairy-tale", "very much in tone with the ideas of the far right Russian nationalists who exploit this controversy" is your opinion, if you have sources which criticize his statement then provide them. The articles don't say that his views on those things are heavily criticised but that is irrelevant and he is backed up by plenty of people in his 'Holodomor was not genocide' statement.--Miyokan (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

His nationalist views are not new and are well known. Accordning to the Time magazine, he is very much a nationalist, and let me assure you, this is not the only credible source that brings up his nationalist tendencies. Please see more here and here[31]. --Hillock65 (talk) 15:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I trimmed the paragraph a little bit more, to remove some repeating ideas, and switched the order of "nobel" and "historian" (he's a writer first then a historian). His opinion is shared by a large number of people, and so who cares let it be, but I do hope we'll keep it at the minimum as his connection to the Famine debate is remote (e.g. I prefer the opinion/findings of scholars from peer-reviewed journals to writers and politicians).--Riurik^(discuss) 15:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

He has a degree in mathematics, not history, although he completed correspondence courses through Moscow Institute of Philosophy, Literature, and History and he was noted for his work in literature not in history. His primary worth as a historian is his documentation of his Gulag experiences. I think that giving to much weight to his opinions is rather questionable.Faustian (talk) 16:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Then the history claim should be omitted. I concur.--Riurik^(discuss) 23:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up edit: I tried to edit in good faith and incorporate Solzhenitsyn's opinion, but that was a futile effort on my part as I see. He's not an expert on the subject and giving him a paragraph just because he wrote something he thought on the subject in a newspaper, is cherez chur. The views of the Russian government are well represented in this section and referenced so no big loss.--Riurik^(discuss) 23:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is about Holodomor not Alexandr Solzhenitsyn. We do not need his nationalist interpretation of Holodomor. If we include that he is against the application of "genocide" in the "Was Holodomor Genocide" section, fine. But please keep out his absurd fringe opinions, especially those regarding the West. That has no place in this article. Ostap 01:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Miyokan, consensus is clear. Please stop adding that unbalanced paragraph. Ostap 01:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Accusations

Guys, accusations of vandalism accomplish nothing but to throw oil on the fire. Let's all cool out a bit, okay? Nobody of Consequence (talk) 20:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Czeslaw Rajca

• Czeslaw Rajca (2005). Głód na Ukrainie. Lublin/Toronto: Werset. ISBN 83-60133-04-2.

Could we get some background on what the source says? --Irpen 22:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this alleged scholarly source a fringe one anyway, what other scholarly sources place the number at 4.5-5 million?--Miyokan (talk) 03:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Alleged scholarly source? Fringe? Just because you personaly don't agree with it does not make it a fringe source. Or is it fringe because its Polish? Don't remove things because you don't like them. Ostap 04:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* Are you done? My question stands, what other scholarly sources place the number at 4.5-5 million?--Miyokan (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you go look for other sources of you want to. Be my guest. This source is scholarly, hence its inclusion in the article. Is there any actual reason why you find this source to be insufficient? Ostap 04:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

So the answer is no others? If that is the case then it's WP:FRINGE.--Miyokan (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, assume good faith of the person who added the source and said it was scholarly. If you want to go out and prove that this is not a scholarly source, go do so. I do not have the desire to go do this for you. Ostap 04:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

1. One of the first questions to any source whether it refer to the number of dead in Ukraine only or in the whole Soviet Union. One of the results of politicization of Holodomor is that many people believed the hunger was only in Ukraine. The whole number of 5.5-6 millions for the whole Soviet Union seems to be realistic: 3.5 millions in Ukraine + 1.5 millions in Kazakhstan + 1 mln in Russia.
2. Another question is whether Holodomor was the main subject of the scholarly source or it just mention somewhere in the preface, sidenote, etc.
3. The third is the sources for the numbers and
4. the fourth is a possible bias Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't answer your questions, this was added by User:Lysy. All I can do is assume good faith on his part. But, the name of the book is "Głód na Ukrainie", which makes me think it is about Ukraine and about Holodomor. I can't answer the third but he did call it modern in his edit summary (once again I assumed good faith), but as far as the fourth, I don't think User:Lysy would add a biased source to the article. Isn't assuming good faith a policy or something? It certainly should be... Ostap 04:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

All I want is to see that this article is using the most authoritative sources, especially the lead section and especially if we are dealing with the number of victims. There are various numbers all around. Is this particular number obtained by the author or taken by the author from somewhere else? If so, we need to refer it to the source. Also, 4.6 million fits the independent estimates for "demographic deficit" of Ukraine for this time which comes from the famine deaths, other repressions, migration and birth deficit (See more detailed online abstract of the detailed book devoted specifically to the Ukrainian demographics of the time.)We need to know what exactly the source says and how. --Irpen 08:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Irpen. We know what exactly the source says and how. We have the source on our bookshelf. Rajca is a historian with about a hundred research works published. His book on Holodomor is certainly a better source than your favourite weekly magazine. I feel we've had the discussion about using popular weeklies for sources for historical article before. --Lysy^talk 11:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Lysy, first, we are not talking "my favorite weekly magazine" per se. We are talking about an article written by a leading Ukrainian scholar on the Famine, Stanislav Kulchytsky. He wrote a wealth of works on the subject and published hundreds of books, journal articles and gave talks at scholarly conferences. I want to emphasize that he is the [leading Ukrainian scholar of the topic. Now, let me repeat the questions asked.

1. What exactly does the book say on the issue?
2. How is this number obtained? Directly to referred to the third party?

Please read what I said earlier in this section. Finally, I am not sure why Ostap said that I called this "fringe theory". What was indeed fringe in the lead is the statement that some consider that the famine did not happen at all. This is indeed a fringe POV that does not belong to a lead. -Irpen 19:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Lysy. Other reliable secondary sources are books by Robert Conquest. They have been sidelined by Irpen and others on the wrong grounds of being "outdated". However, Conquest did not change his views and estimates of the number of victims even after "opening" of the Soviet archives, as clear from his later publications, such as Reflections on a Ravaged Century (2000). Another serious problem is missing narrative section in this article. The article discuses highly partisan questions, such as "causes and outcomes", who was guilty, etc. But it does not describe what had happened, month after month. That must be corrected.Biophys (talk) 17:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Lysy, here is more info for you. The exact numbers Kulchytsky gives in the Zerkalo Nedeli are given in the book on the subject he co-authored. The source: S. Kulchytsky, H. Yefimenko. "Demographic consequence of Holodomor of 1933 in Ukraine. The all-Union census of 1937 in Ukraine" was published in Kiev by the Institute of History of the National Academy of Science of Ukraine in 2003. The book is posted online at the institute's web-site here and here. Of interest for this subject is section 4 (pdf. The book provides a wealth of material and other refs. I am posting the link here for now, until I have time to work this into an article. --Irpen 06:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Recognition

Map of countries recognizing the Holodomor as genocide by me.

The article says that 19 countries have recognized the Holodomor. Which countries are they?--Boguslav (talk) 04:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Look here. Scroll down to the part that is Spanish or Portugese with the flags. I think that is a list of countries that have recognized it. Ostap 04:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I have created a map (right). Please updated as needed. —dima/talk/ 04:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Very nice. This should be added to the article. Ostap 04:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, we cannot include the unsourced map which would list 19 countries while reputable sources differ even on the number of countries. For example, after the statement issued by the Latvian Sejm on March 13, 2008, the total number of countries is given as 19 [32] , 16[33], "more than ten"[34] --Irpen 09:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There has to be an answer as to how many countries have acknowledged the genocide. I think a map would be very helpful rather than just listing them. Ostap 19:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The answer that "has to be" cannot be given by a Wikipedian who reads and interprets various governmental statements and makes his own conclusion. To make a strong statement like "this many countries recognized and these countries are... " such statement has to be made my a reliable source and not be contradicted by another reliable source. --Irpen 19:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but there is an answer, and when found out I think a map would be very helpful. I will look around for it. Ostap 23:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Canada has recognized the Holodomor, however it has not recognized it as a genocide. There was great disappointment about that, however the mde indicates Canada. Bandurist (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This just illustrates again how much confusion is there. Note that of three sources I listed above, the more conservative one ( "more than ten" countries) mentions Canada. We cannot have dubious info in the article while even the respectable sources claim wildly different things. --Irpen 21:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

On June 19, 2003, on the 70th anniversary of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33, the Senate of Canada adopted unanimously the following historic resolution proposed by the Honourable Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk: “That this House calls upon the Government of Canada: a) to recognize the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and to condemn any attempt to deny or distort this historical truth as being anything less than a genocide; b) to designate the fourth Saturday in November of every year throughout Canada as a day of remembrance of the more than seven million Ukrainians who fell victim to the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33; and c) to call on all Canadians, particularly historians, educators and parliamentarians, to include the true facts of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 in the records of Canada and in future educational material: GIVEN THAT the Genocide of Ukrainians (now commonly referred to as the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and referred to as such in this Motion) engineered and executed by the Soviet regime under Stalin to destroy all opposition to its imperialist policies, caused the deaths of over seven million Ukrainians in 1932 and 1933; THAT on November 26, 1998, the President of Ukraine issued a Presidential Decree establishing that the fourth Saturday in November be a National Day of Remembrance for the victims of this mass atrocity; THAT the fourth Saturday in November has been recognized by Ukrainian communities throughout the world as a day to remember the victims of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and to promote the fundamental freedoms of a democratic society; THAT it is recognized that information about the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 was suppressed, distorted, or wiped out by Soviet authorities; THAT it is only now that some proper and accurate information is emerging from the former Soviet Union about the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33; THAT many survivors of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 have immigrated to Canada and contributed to its positive development; THAT Canada condemns all war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocides; AND THAT Canadians cherish and defend human rights, and value the diversity and multicultural nature of Canadian society.”Bobanni (talk) 22:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

And what do you make of this, Bobanni? --Irpen 06:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

New section proposal

As there still in some media/politician usage a common cliché which actually is sounds like Historical nonsense – there would be good to mentioned some of most awful of them (to have something like that [35]

• 1932-33 famine was engineered by Soviet authorities under dictator Josef Stalin to force peasants to give up their private plots of land and join collective farms.

Actually historians noted the Famine/Holodomor – 1933 which lasted until end of spring – beginning of summer 1933.

Josef Stalin in 1933-34 blame Ukrainian SRR highest rank officials and Central Soviet Agricultural Authorities for situation in agricultural sector of Ukrainian SRR in 1931-32 – in 1933-38 most of highest officials were executed, while their actions in 1930-33 mentioned as attempt of “coupe d’etat”.

Program of collectivization at most affected by 1933 Famine Ukrainian SRR regions was accomplished by end of summer – beginning of autumn 1931.

• Authorities set out to eradicate private landowners as a social class

By October 1932 69% of peasants households and 77.1% of arable land mentioned as in “collective farms”. Mass “de-kulakization” program accomplished in USSR by June 1931.

• Soviet Union sought to pay for its rapid industrialization with grain exports at the expense of starving millions of its own people.

Total export value of grain export for 1932 – 56.795 million of rubles (10.1% of total export value) Trade balance for 1932 -129.1 million of rubles. In 1930 – 207.1 million of rubles (20.1 %of total export value); in 1931 – 157.6 million of rubles (19.4% of total export value) or in metric equivalent – 1930 - 4,846,024; 1931 - 5,182,835; 1932 - 1,819,114 tons of grain.

• Ukraine – bread basket of Europe

such statement should be correct for 1909-1913 when most of grain export originated from fields of major landowners – land-lords which lands were redistributed amongst peasants after 1917. Ukrainian agriculture was badly affected by aftermath of I World War, Civil War and 1921-22 Drought and by 1927 was composed from millions of small and extremely small land plots cultivated on mid-century agriculture technique level. After 1927 and 1928 drought Ukrainian peasantry received food and seed aid from Government Authorities by autumn 1929. By 1932 the number of horses shortened twice while small cattle’s and pigs forth and triple time respectively (as compared with 1927/28).

• in 1932 Stalin raised Ukraine's grain procurement quotas by forty-four percent (44%)

in 1932 grain procurement quotas was lowered from the beginning by 18.1% (as compared with 1931) and lowered three times until mid January 1933. Despite this, total procurement for Ukraine by February reached only 256 million of poods – from planed 356 million of poods – or 63% less as compared with 1931 procurement.

• Holodomor did not affect cities

cities and small towns were affected as same extent as a rural areas - taken into account the urban/rural population ratio – ~13% and ~87 % respectively.

• Army and NKVD encircled …(borders, towns, villages etc)

NKVD liquidated by end of 1930 and reestablished in 1934. Soviet Army in 1932/33 formed mainly on territorial basis (composed from local servicemen). Also there no evidence on usage of GPU troops, several regiments of such located by the time at Ukraine. However, there a reports about temporary movable checkpoints existence established by local GPU, militia (belonged to People’s Commissariat of Justice) and activists to prevent food speculation. 213.159.241.101 (talk) 20:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Mein Kampf

Was published in 1926. Is he talking about Holodomor? Ostap 03:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Why is a quote from 1926 being put into the article with the claim that it describes events from 1932/1933?Faustian (talk) 03:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a mistery... - PietervHuis (talk) 01:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Strange science DEMOGRAPHY or new lessons for group of editors

I really missed a month old conversation about demography matters amongst group of editors-

• “exceptional mortality" used in 2002, and "excess mortality" used in 2005 are the same thing, right?”

I really love this stuff – so actually it’s not the same thing because –

• “Excess mortality” is the number of deaths over and above the average death rate (or as a formula: “registered deaths In reporting period” –“annual average for previous period” = Excess mortality.

While exceptional mortality = exceptional mortality (mean more than expected average)

So the "doub"t of 2.2 (Excess mortality) vs 2.6 (exceptional mortality) very simple – 2.6 – it’s total number of death estimated by “Valin at al” for 1933 (2.104 registered + 457 undercounting correction= 2583) 0.433 estimated (backwards) normal deaths rate based on deaths for 1934-38 period – (0.508 + 0.362 +0.380+ 0.450+ 0.451)/5 = 0.430). I assume most of you will not oppose to fact what in 1933 people died not exclusively from starvation ( as it was before and after.

• However I guess why not used a previous period (1927-1931) death rate (0.579+0.547+0.585+0.580+0.533= 0.565 ) which actually gives a more relevant figure (if were used a births rate for 1927-1931) So more appropriate (scientifically based) figure for Excess mortality for 1933 = 2.583 – 0.565 = 2.02

As regards to “distinction of demographers and historians” (same distinction as between astronomers and astrologists) – thus I guess about source for WP choosing.

Valin at al 

• demographic deficit of 4,6 million(actually at book 4.569) for 12 years (1927-1938) (obtained through age structure probable calculation for 1939 vs 1939 census results (???) for age structure of population).
• 2.2 figure obtained (2.149 if use more figures below 0 )  : 4.569 (demographic deficit) – 1.057(birth deficit) – 0.930 (forced migration) – 0 (“quasi nul” for voluntary migration instead “- 1.3” for 1926-36 period) – 0.433(“normal estimated death”

Kulchitski 

• demographic deficit of 4,6 million(actually at book 4.581) for 10 years (1927-1936) (obtained through really non scientific (statistics/demografy) figures manipulation )
• 3- to 3.5 figure (or exact 3.238 obtained : 4.581(demographi deficit) – 1. 343(voluntary migration deficit)

I hope distinction more then visible – if someone will met with difficulties to assess mentioned above – please fill free to ask – I’ll provide explanation for "average non-eastern Europe visitors". Jo0doe (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)