Talk:History of Israel (1948–present)

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Speedy deletion[edit]

@Extraordinary Writ: Concerning your declining to speedy delete this page, calling it a split page. In a recent proposal, there was no consensus to split the main article, so it's a duplicate. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 00:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Triggerhippie4 You should feel free to nominate for deletion, but the "no consensus" summary did mention a consensus that some sort of split should happen and I do not think that is sufficient for A10 in this case. Ppt91talk 01:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ppt91: Please, read carefully. By "some sort of split should happen", it was meant some other parts, not 1948-present. It was clearly stated that there was no consensus to split to "History of Israel (1948–present)." Triggerhippie4 (talk) 08:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No section has been deleted and summarized at the parent article, so it's no true split. I have simply created the modern history article that quite clearly deserves to exist in its own right. The outstanding issue of length at the parent article, one inconclusively addressed via WP:SPLIT and WP:RM discussions, remains unresolved and subject to discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:44, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You just created a duplicate of the parent article. It was agreed on the talk page there to resolve the length issue by trimming down pre-modern part, not splitting the modern one. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 08:55, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I copied some material, but at no point has it been a duplicate. A duplicate is an exact copy, yes? This page is not only obviously not a copy, but also has a clearly differentiated scope. It already has an entirely different structure - a decade-based chronology, no less, as befitting a history, some material has already been removed, other material added, etc. - you know, editing. As an alternative to trying to deny that a country's modern history has a right to exist as a subject in its own right – a patently feeble argument – you could perhaps just WP:DROPTHESTICK and get on board with the whole editing thing as well. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment New article fits perfectly into Wikipedia:Summary style
  • Main article: Israel
    • Sub article: History of Israel
      • Sub article: History of the state of Israel
This is the way related articles are supposed to develop and is much better than the previously discussed split. Calling this is split would mean they are the same topic, the History of Israel and the History of the modern state of Israel are two different, however related, topics.  // Timothy :: talk  10:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, a split is when one topic is divided into several parts with separate articles. It was decided not to do that, and that is what the creator of this page still did. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And these are two topics:
  • History of Israel (few thousand years)
  • History of the state of Israel (less than 100 years)
Spliting the History of Israel article wasn't a good option, creating sub articles about notable sub topics is an excellent option. This article (History of the state of Israel) might need to be split eventually since there is too much material to fit into a singles article. I could easily see the article eventually split into 1948-1967, 1967-1979, 1980-present.  // Timothy :: talk  10:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Title[edit]

Less clunky would be "History of Israel since 1948". Tony (talk) 03:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

or History of the State of Israel. nableezy - 04:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just followed the precedent of History of India (1947–present), History of Pakistan (1947–present) as other mid-20th century states formed by means of partition, as well as other, more general history splits, such as History of France (1900–present), or more micro divisions, e.g.: History of the United States (2008–present), but yes, there's plenty of scope for discussion of alternatives. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:37, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 April 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 21:37, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History of Israel (1948–present) → History of the State of Israel – There's a name for it, without the need for brackets. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 06:36, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does the proposed title introduce any ambiguity to that end? Not sure. But if confusion over the period and entity concerned is the problem, there is of course also History of modern Israel, a la History of modern Greece. That's also more concise. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:49, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NATURAL and WP:PRECISE. nableezy - 17:40, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the current title is more fitting for the content of the article. --Nagsb (talk) 23:00, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    how so? nableezy - 23:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The term 'State of Israel' carries the connotation of a legal entity, akin to the French Republic or the British Crown. It refers to the State of Israel as a public law entity that possesses assets, conducts activities, issues decrees, and participates in legal proceedings. Consequently, it is commonly used in official documents. However, it is worth noting that 'Israel' encompasses not only its legal identity but also its culture, sports, and other aspects. Nagsb (talk) 07:14, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thats just a way of distinguishing the modern state, established in 1948, and the ancient kingdoms. nableezy - 07:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's still a "History of X" page, not "Politics of X", or "Political history of X" Iskandar323 (talk) 07:23, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, The two elements of the current title, 'History of Israel' is more WP:NATURAL than History of the State of Israel and '(1948-present)' is what makes this title WP:PRECISE.--Chefallen (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 4 May 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was:
Just because one of the two users mentioned in this request still remains blocked, I would treat this as a legitimate re-discussion because the number of participants in the original discussion were low and even one illegitimate opinion could swing the result.
The result of this discussion : No consensus to move (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 20:40, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History of Israel (1948–present) → History of the State of Israel – After the previous RM was closed, it was discovered that two of the opposing !votes were made by sockpuppets (User:Nagsb and User:Dovidroth). After a request by Nableezy at my talk page, I decided to open a new discussion here, per WP:SOCKSTRIKE#Closed discussions. – MaterialWorks 15:03, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support again, per WP:NATURAL and WP:PRECISE. A natural disambiguation is preferred over a parenthetical one, and using State gives it the needed precision as well. nableezy - 15:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Obvious unobjectionable title. Selfstudier (talk) 16:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Triggerhippie4, Iskandar323, and Chefallen: Pinging the other participants of the previous RM. – MaterialWorks 17:43, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support: It has the benefit of not being parenthetical, per WP:NCDAB, which is a guideline, but is marginally less precise on the period, which could lead to the scope being blurred by future editors, but that is a future concern, not policy. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is it really confirmed about Dovidroth? Triggerhippie4 (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If I understand correctly, it was a mistake and he's about to be unblocked. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, there is a not so clear cut discussion about that but that has no bearing on the proceedings here. You were in support of this rename before, have you changed your mind because of the situation with Dovidroth? Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to vote in a discussion based partly on a block if that block will be undone. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 11:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per Chefallen's statement last time: "The two elements of the current title, 'History of Israel' is more WP:NATURAL than History of the State of Israel and '(1948-present)' is what makes this title WP:PRECISE". Freelance-frank (talk) 02:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There is already a way too long History of Israel covering different subject matter, it is just the part from the modern creation of the state being split out, so this objection is unmotivated. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That is a completely specious reading of either of those links. WP:NATURAL is about the type of disambiguation, favoring natural language over parenthetical disambiguation. It is not about comparing "History of Israel" and "History of the State of Israel", it is about comparing "State of" and "(1948-present)". PRECISE is about the overall title being precise, to the point of needing disambiguation where needed. But when needed, as it is here, the policy is to favor natural language over parentheticals. And to pretend otherwise is either an act of ignorance of the article naming policy or a willful misrepresentation of it. nableezy - 13:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the name alone makes it clear what the starting point is. --Killuminator (talk) 05:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose First of all, the premise for re-starting this RM is false. I have been falsely accused of sockpuppetry (for more information check my user talk page), which somehow invalidated the previous RM outcome that was decided only a few days ago. Second, as I said previously, we shouldn't assume that the reader is familiarized with the topic. It's easier to make clear in the title that this article only deals with post-1948 history, similar to other articles dealing with specific periods such as History of Iraq (2011–present), History of Germany (1945–1990), History of Germany (1990–present), etc. Dovidroth (talk) 04:12, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Except none of those encompass the entire history of a modern nation-state. The Iraq one is just post American withdrawal, not even post Saddam, the Germany ones are WWII to reunification and reunification onwards. Maybe the latter could be called History of reunified Germany but doesnt seem like a natural or precise way of referring to that period to the current time. And as such there isnt the natual disambiguation available here. Yall are treating this as something it is not, our article titling policy is straightforward here. It isnt a POV issue, it is can we express the title of this article using natural phrasing while maintaining precision. And we clearly can. As far as invalidated, there is still a sock edit and a specious one (repeated here above), in that move request. nableezy - 07:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The existing History of Israel page, from which this is derived, is consistent with other similar pages like History of Jordan and History of Iraq. Making a special case out of Israel by disconnecting it from antiquity would be politicization. Drsmoo (talk) 17:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Per Drsmoo, Davidroth - this almost feels like another attempt in distortion of the history of Israel to gain political aims. Israel should not be different from other countries on Wikipedia. As with any other country, there should be an overview article summarizing the entire history of Israel, named "History of Israel", and article exploring specific eras in its history. To achieve this, the current naming is perfect as is, and is aligned with the naming of other countries' periodical articles listed in above comments. It should not be changed. Tombah (talk) 17:17, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2023[edit]

typo: please edit widener to widen Frogster64 (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cannolis (talk) 19:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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