Talk:Hermano da Silva Ramos

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WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 16:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

FORIX / Autosport and oldracingcars.com have this guy named as Hermano da Silva Ramos, which is his name, as I always understood it. Since the editor who keeps changing it won't start a discussion about it, I am doing so. Who's for moving the page and who's for keeping it here? Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what various sources say:
Hermano FORIX, oldracingcars.com, formula1.com, ChicaneF1, StatsF1, The Complete Book of Formula One (Arron/Hughes), it/pt/sv Wikipedias
Hernando GrandPrix.com, Autocourse Grand Prix Archive, Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Vol 1, ca/de/es/fi/fr/hu/nl/pl/ro/sl Wikipedias
Given that there are credible sources on both sides of the ledger, I don't mind whether it's renamed or not. But if I had to pick, I'd go for "Hermano". DH85868993 (talk) 01:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about renaming the article Nano da Silva Ramos (which seems to be his commonly used name anyway), and then noting the discrepancy in reporting his full first name in the first sentence? That's a pretty even split in the above table if ever I saw one. For the record, Steve Small's Grand Prix Who's Who (first edition) list him as simply Nano.—Midgrid(talk) 15:37, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a Formula One know-it-all, but I didn't recognize either first name, but "Nano" I do recognise. However, the article on Nino Farina is Giuseppe Farina, for example, but then there is Skip Barber, whose real first name is John. Anyway, I would support a move to "Hermano da Silva Ramos" since there appears to be more external links to Hermano, and it can assumed that some of the foreign Wikipedia probably translated this article, hence the long list with "Hernando". Also, you could add the now inactive Manipe F1 to the "Hermano" list. —Gyaro–Maguus— 01:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm for moving it to "Hermano" per a decent article at 8W [1] and the very decent Portuguese Wiki article. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reading around a bit, it seems that, although there is no consistency over whether he is Hermano or Hernando, there is general agreement that he is commonly known as Nano, so I'm with Midgrid, and support a rename to Nano da Silva Ramos. Eff Won (talk) 22:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Iv'e been reading around I think the most sources at least the most reliable sources name him Hermano. So I would pick Hermano. The portuguese wikipedia also names him Hermano. I think we should vote for this. Anyone with me? Jahn1234567890 (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can you say which sources you consider to be more reliable and which less reliable - and why you think that, to help us draw our own conclusions before a vote please. Perhaps we need a table of sources for each of "Nano", "Hernando" and "Hermano" - and a reliability ranking for each source. Eff Won (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well I find Formula1.com, chicanef1 and statsf1 very reliable sources. Also this is a reliable source http://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/Hermano-da%20Silva%20Ramos-BR.html. To be honest I haven't found any sources who say "Nano". You have a point there but I would not pick "Nano" because I didn't found any source. If you have some sources wich say "Nano" than I could change my mind. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One person's guess is (presumably) as good as anyone else's as regards reliability. We already have a table, and those sources are all reliable sources under most circumstances. It just so happens that there's a conflict with this one name. So far, nobody is going with Hernando, so it looks like it will be moved – it's just a matter of where. "Jahn"'s point about the Portuguese wikipedia is a good one, that is a pretty good article and the Brazilian editors could well have the best knowledge on the name. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That the Portuguese speakers prefer "Hermano" could simply be because it is a Portuguese name and "Hernando" is Spanish. What I guess we should be attempting to establish is, not necessarily his original official and legal name, but what we believe he was most commonly known as. As, for example, we have for Luigi Emilio Rodolfo Bertetti Bianco, Frederico J C Themudo d'Orey and even John Young Stewart.
Here are a few international examples of "Nano" in various sources: autosport.com, espnf1.com, f1pulse.com, 4fula1.ro, f1-facts.com, lequipe.fr, motorsport-magazin.com, spiegel.de, speedweek.ch.
Having said all that; my current preference is for "Nano", with "Hermano" a close second choice. Eff Won (talk) 21:25, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect Hermano is more likely because it's a Portuguese name and the guy was half-Brazilian. There's no apparent reason why he would have been given a Spanish name. Some of those sources are not reliable, but he was often known as Nano, of that there's no doubt. Even so, I prefer Hermano. Nano is already a redirect, which I think is what it should be. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except that he was also half-French, and "Hernando" is common in France too. Which of the examples I gave do you think are not reliable, and did you intned to say there is doubt (rather than "no doubt") that he was commonly known as "Nano"? Eff Won (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's particularly common in France, being a Spanish name. The Romanian source is unreliable, as is the F1 facts source; they are low-quality regurgitations of other people's facts. I personally don't rate F1 pulse either. There are reliable sources for all the names, that's not what this is about. People just pick one and we'll go with what most people are happy with, there's no real need for acres of debate. I've adjusted the typo in my last comment. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:00, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
May I add that the Autosport source is a fairly casual list of drivers, and the ESPN source states his proper first name as "Hermano"? —Gyaro–Maguus— 22:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am his grandson and the correct name is Hermano João da Silva Ramos but everybody call him Nano da Silva Ramos. Is it possible to change in the english version of wikipedia? I wrote his portuguese wikipedia page and you can see the correct name and his full story as a driver. Joaquim da Silva Ramos, 19 November 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.122.118.14 (talk • contribs)

Accepting the above comment at face value, and given the fact that FORIX, oldracingcars.com, formula1.com and ChicaneF1 all give his name as "Hermano", I'd be happy for the article to be moved to Hermano da Silva Ramos. Other opinions? DH85868993 (talk) 09:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why would we accept the comment at face value? Writing his grandfather's Wikipedia article is on its own a questionable practice, but we have no reason to believe or not believe it. The359 (Talk) 09:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AGF. DH85868993 (talk) 11:47, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be changed to "Hermano da Silva Ramos", based on the IP and that OldRacingCars uses "Hermano". I feel that OldRacingCars is the F1 website which has the most chance of having got it correct. —Gyaro–Maguus— 12:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe it's over a year since I brought this up. I must be getting old. The359 has a point, and normally I'd be sceptical about editors claiming to be members of the subject's family, but the IP seems legit enough and importantly, there are several sources already backing it up. So as I was before, I'm in favour of the move to Hermano da Silva Ramos. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I assume good faith, but that doesn't negate the fact that we cannot at the same time assume he is a reliable source. Move because of sources, not because of a random comment. If the person has a legitimate claim, they can take it up with WP:OTRS. The359 (Talk) 07:45, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no objections within the next 24 hours, I'll move the article to Hermano da Silva Ramos. DH85868993 (talk) 00:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been moved and the incoming links have been updated. DH85868993 (talk) 02:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Age record[edit]

As it stands the article describes da Silva Ramos as the oldest living former Formula 1 driver. It appears to me this is incorrect; Paul Goldsmith (USA) (born 2 October 1925) is just over two months older; according to his article he competed 3 times between 1958 and 1960, with 1 podium finish, at the Indianapolis 500 when that race was part of the F1 World Championship. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although the 1958-1960 Indianapolis races were part of the World Drivers' Championship (which was mostly comprised of Formula One races and today is known as the Formula One World Championship), they weren't actually Formula One races. So da Silva Ramos is technically the oldest living former Formula 1 driver. Goldsmith is the oldest living driver who drove in "the championship which was mostly comprised of Formula One races and is today known as the Formula One World Championship". (The "Formula One World Championship career" heading in Goldsmith's infobox is slightly misleading - at the time he competed, it was called the "World Drivers' Championship"; although all the races except the Indianapolis 500 were Formula One races). DH85868993 (talk) 10:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I fully understand and accept what you're saying. I would note though that Goldmsith appears in List of Formula One drivers (along with about 20 other 'Indy-only' drivers), and List of Formula One constructors includes 'Indy-only' entrants as well. Both use 'raced at least once' as stated criteria for inclusion. A consistent approach would be to acknowledge Goldmsith as the oldest. In any case, describing da Silva Ramos as the oldest without at least a caveat about Goldsmith is also a little misleading. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 16:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed the wording to identify da Silva Ramos as the oldest living driver to have competed in a Formula One Grand Prix and added a note about Goldsmith being the oldest living driver to have competed in the (Formula One) World Championship. And a reference which supports both statements. Feel free to tweak the wording. DH85868993 (talk) 08:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much. I'm absolutely happy with the wording - I just added Goldsmith's birthdate.217.155.59.206 (talk) 09:08, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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