Talk:Harar

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revamping this article[edit]

The general silence of this article on Harar’s place in the east coast slave trade (except one sentence) is a real omission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.41.86.115 (talk) 08:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ill be working to change this articles outlook. Baboon43 (talk) 03:42, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Edits[edit]

User:Harari234 please come to the talk page. AcidSnow (talk) 00:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Find a reliable source for your edits[edit]

adal was somali says whom? which academics? Zekenyan (talk) 14:02, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The muslim Adal (Afar kingdom) [1] Zekenyan (talk) 14:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Various academic sources actually. You can deny history all you want but it changes nothing. AcidSnow (talk) 02:52, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Provide sources or just give up. Zekenyan (talk) 03:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh, it's in the articles. Why do you refuse to read them? Is it because you know you're wrong? AcidSnow (talk) 03:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess If you dont listen to me then maybe you will listen to an admin about how to discuss content disputes on here. Zekenyan (talk) 03:49, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dude if you bothered to read any of those articles you would know. But you didn't. AcidSnow (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@AcidSnow: Wikipedia articles cannot be used as reliable sources for edits in other Wikipedia articles. When introducing information here that requires a reliable source, the source must be cited here. If a source can be found in another, related, article, it can be copied here, but you cannot simply refer to its presence in another article and claim that your edit is reliably sourced. Dwpaul Talk 03:58, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That wasn't what I was trying to do. I told him that instead of providing fringe claims that he should read the respective articles. For example, it's stated (with a source) that Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi is "an ethnic Somali". Despite this, the Zekenyan has refused to listen. AcidSnow (talk) 04:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
First of all that article your referring to actually disputes his ethnicity. There is a section entirely dedicated on trying to identify the ethnicity of the subject. This is because Somalis are clan based but Ahmed's background is not clear. Other figures such as Nur ibn Mujahid are not disputed as his clan is well noted. The other article "Adal Sultanate" is not even cited. The words have been added by you on various articles without providing reliable sources. It is I believe the reason why you refuse to provide any reliable sources on this talk page. 04:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekenyan (talk • contribs)
My God, in all aspects the man was Somali. Hence why the vast majority of scholars believe so; of which I can provided several sources for. For those who claim otherwise, they are unaware of the Arab Genealogy amongst Somalis. Nur is the nephew of Ahmad, that it's self triumphs all other claims. Dude its also sourced on Adal Sultanate page. Why are you making things up? AcidSnow (talk) 04:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you take the other users advice. Zekenyan (talk) 04:46, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't ironic that you advise me to take some else's advise when you refuse to do so? Anyways, it's sourced on those pages. AcidSnow (talk) 04:48, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Anyways, cya for now. AcidSnow (talk) 04:56, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although the Adal Sultanate was as a whole a multiethnic Muslim state, most of its leaders and forces were indeed Somali; the rest were mainly Afar and Harari, not Argobba. Adal's first capital was in Zeila in northwestern Somalia, and many of the polity's commanders and troops are explicitly identified as belonging to various Somali groups in the Futuh al-Habash (Conquest of Abyssinia), which is the main historical treatise on the Sultanate. The Futuh was written in the mid-1500s by Shihāb al-Dīn, a Yemeni historian who was the Adalite leader Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi's personal biographer. It was penned during the conquest itself, so it is a period-specific, eyewitness testimonial, not modern speculation. Shihāb al-Dīn indicates therein that: "Then he [the imam] tied a red standard to a spear and entrusted it to his brother-in-law Mattan bin 'Utman bin Kaled, the Somali, their chieftain, their knight, and the most courageous, the bravest of them all. There rallied to him one-hundred-and-ten knights and three-thousand infantry, along with the tribe of Harti, the tribe of Jairan and the tribe of Mazra, all of whom were Somalis" [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One chief being "brave" doesnt make the sultanate somali. Your not convincing me. Can you provide a direct source that explicitly states Ada sultanate was :somali", You know like the one I have provided above that says they were Afar. Did you know he has a harari brother in law as well? He married into many tribes inorder to gain support for the war. Zekenyan (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As you can see Midday, he has no desire to listen. He has a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. AcidSnow (talk) 15:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is, AcidSnow. It seems more like trolling. Middayexpress (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh ok. So he's WP:NOTHERE. Also, Zekenyan please provide sources for your ludicrous claims. Especially considering the fact that he had only one wife whom was a Somali. So he couldn't have had "married into many tribes inorder to gain support for the war"; which you claim to be so. AcidSnow (talk) 15:24, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He had a main wife who was the daughter of Mahfuz and he also had other wives. In those days polygamy was not uncommon. His extended family does not prove his ethnicity. One of his sisters was married to Mattan which Middayexpress had mention above. The other sister was married to A harari. Zekenyan (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth are you talking about? He had only one wife. If not, please proved a legitimate source. AcidSnow (talk) 15:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thats irrelevant to the discussion but its astonishing that you request sources when you have refused to give them up when asked by others. Zekenyan (talk) 15:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serous? I brought numerous sources as did others. Nor did I refuse to do anything. It's quite clear that you just made up everything. AcidSnow (talk) 15:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC
Numerous editors pointed out that you did not. Here and on the ANI board. Zekenyan (talk) 16:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I did. For example, ask Midday and Abdi. AcidSnow (talk) 16:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
AcidSnow, the editor doesn't appear to know much if anything about the Adal Sultanate (Argobba? Really?). His actual interest here instead appears to be you personally. As such, please see and heed WP:DFTT. Middayexpress (talk) 17:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're a 100% right that he is after me specifically. Dude, someone has been stocking me on Wikipedia. Check this out: here. Should I abandon the ANI and ignore Zekenyan? The only person that I know would do this is Khabboos, but he has been banned for a year or more. AcidSnow (talk)
Yes, that's what I would recommend here; he's harmless in the grand scheme of things. It's all about setting priorities. Middayexpress (talk) 18:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I have read the entire Futuh al habasa. I have done countless research on the horn of africa. Zekenyan (talk) 17:51, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's "Futuh al-Habash" not "Futuh al habasa". For a guy who has done "countless research" you can't even spell it. AcidSnow (talk) 18:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes also Futuh al-Habasha, but good point. lol Middayexpress (talk) 18:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You have yet to provide a source. Zekenyan (talk) 03:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, sources have already been provided. AcidSnow (talk) 03:39, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is harar sultanate?[edit]

Amir Nur did not start a new sultanate. He continued his uncles sultanate. Zekenyan (talk) 14:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Flag[edit]

It has been brought to my attention that there are at least three versions of the state's flag: File:Real Harari State Flag.png, File:Et harrar.png and a third version with more detail. Is someone able to find out what is going on here? TheDragonFire (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The blurry image on the Ethiopian Government's website indicates that this version is the closest. I will update accordingly. TheDragonFire (talk) 14:03, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where's an article on the Great Mosque of Harar?[edit]

The great mosque of Harar is pretty famous and one of the most important mosques in this city. I'm thinking that there should be sufficient info on the web to be able to make something on it. Econmecon (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ugaas Rooble[edit]

User: WanderingGeeljire

if you feel the image is incorrect and the picture shown is not the gadabursi ughaz, but rather the Issa ughaz, please show the evidence of why your citation is correct and the one here is wrong. MerseySide (talk) 19:46, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. [1]

2. [2]

you can see that both exhibits #1 and #2 are the same pic. the original mentions the name 'gadabursi ughaz' very clearly. 

MerseySide (talk) 19:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Nur, Sheikh Abdurahman 1993 "Ilbaxnimadii Adal Iyo Sooyaalkii Soomaaliyeed: The Renaissance of Adal Somali history". 1993.
  2. ^ Nur, Sheikh Abdurahman 1993 "Ilbaxnimadii Adal Iyo Sooyaalkii Soomaaliyeed: The Renaissance of Adal Somali history". 1993.

Ugaas Rooble Accurate Source[edit]

MerseySide

It is infact a 20th century source from "Sahal Stationary"

If you look here https://www.facebook.com/Sahal-Stationary-And-Electronics-1940825149314465/

It's a company that sells stationary and printers - meaning this book is self published

However it is an Ugaas but not the Gaddabursi one it's the Issa Ugaas Rooble, he's NOT in Harar but in Jaldessa


Here is the PRIMARY source taken by Paulitschke during his expedition, you'll have to scroll through the 'gallery'

"L'ougâs, roi, Roblé des Issas avec son neveu, Jardon" https://data.bnf.fr/atelier/13756095/philipp_paulitschke/ Notice how he is the same man?? the tassels in his jacket are identical positions too

So please stop reverting the changes, this man was not in Harar nor was he Gaddabursi

Ugaas Rooble

WanderingGeeljire

the link you provided is broken and it's not a valid link. it shows an image of Paulitschke and doesn't show the actual picture of the issa ughaz. can you provide an actual academic citation that clearly shows the image you uploaded within the cited piece? if you see the links I provided you can see very clearly that its cited within an academic piece and was uploaded by the British library. MerseySide (talk) 13:38, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: WanderingGeeljire

the first link you provided is a facebook link and not an academic piece. if you read wikipedia it doesn't allow citations from social media platforms and doesn't accept them as viable. do you have a link to an academic piece that clearly shows the picture as the issa ughaz? the first link is invalid because its facebook and the second link is broken and just shows a picture of Paulitschke. having said that, if you want to have a 3rd opinion we can have that aswell. MerseySide (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MerseySide Listen I showed you where your source originally comes from, that facebook link is the company that printed it back then


You failed to look properly at the link I provided you, under Paulitschke you will see "related contributors" & "gallery" in small font, click gallery

There are numerous great images but the one that is relevant for this conversation is "L'ougâs, roi, Roblé des Issas avec son neveu, Jardon"

As well it's ridiculously obvious that the photo I've provided you is infact the original, check the positions on his jacket & tassels, alongside the rod in the Ugaas Rooble's hand. They're in identical positions, the man in both photos is the same


What I linked wasn't a social media platform it was the french national library "Bibliothèque nationale de France" That in and of itself is credible.

Here is another link and the photos are actually dated to 1885 exactly meaning your secondary source claiming 1888 is FALSE

This is a direct access since you're being obtuse https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b77022583/f51.item

"Expédition scientifique autrichienne dans les pays des Çomals, Gallas et d'Harar, 1885" 


— Preceding unsigned comment added by WanderingGeeljire (talk • contribs) 15:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: WanderingGeeljire

thank you for your research. I'll proceed to remove the picture.

thank you.

MerseySide (talk) 19:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@WanderingGeeljire: Their face are different but the cloths are the same, was the photo doctored or was he wearing the same cloth but in different location? One of the Isaaq chieftains is also wearing those decorations on his jacket and he kind of looks like the guy in the Gaddabursi photo, are they the same person? Toltol15 (talk) 20:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]


MerseySide Toltol15 no problem Mersey I appreciate it, I've added the photo I showed you to the Issa page as well

The jacket position and rod in his hand gives it away, their faces are similar but the grainy photo makes it difficult, It's clearly the Issa Ugaas Rooble because the positions are identical in both photos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WanderingGeeljire (talk • contribs) 11:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doctored map[edit]

@MerseySide: This map looks doctored and should not be included as per WP:OR, that is why I added the other map which complies with WP:RS.

An old map of Harar featuring the Gadabuursi, Geri, Issa, Karanle Hawiye and Berteri Jidwaaq Somali communities.

It looks like a doctored version of a map about Gondar https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b59696695/f1.item.zoom and the person who created it removed many clans from the map and added others, the Harrar map I uploaded has the same information as the Gondar map whereas with the doctored one you don't even see Harrar, it is only mentioned at the very bottom. Toltol15 (talk) 23:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

It isn't a doctored map at all, it's from a very well known and famous book written by Elisée Reclus (1886), here is the title and link:

Author: Reclus, Elisée Year:1886  Title: The Earth and its Inhabitants The Universal Geography Vol. X. North-east Africa Page: 206 Figure 68: Course of the Lower Awash.

Link: https://fdocuments.net/document/the-earth-and-its-inhabitantsreclus-elisee-vol-1-africa.html MerseySide (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15 This is an a better link for the book:

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/reclus/universalgeograp10recl.pdf MerseySide (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

so the map absolutely complies with wikipedia, as you can see clearly from the links I provided.

summary of the links provided:

Author: Reclus, Elisée

Year:1886 

Title: The Earth and its Inhabitants The Universal Geography Vol. X. North-east Africa

Page: 206

Figure 68: Course of the Lower Awash.

link: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/reclus/universalgeograp10recl.pdf

alternative link: https://fdocuments.net/document/the-earth-and-its-inhabitantsreclus-elisee-vol-1-africa.html 

MerseySide (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MerseySide: If you read the author he's not referring to none of the clans listed in that map, he's referring to the Afar and Oromo people that's why it shows in big font their names, you can even see the Afar mentioned in the map next to it, and the title of the map say Course of the Lower Awash not Harrar. This map should not be listed in the Harrar wiki, if you want to add it to the Afar people wiki or Awash wiki yeah sure but to name it An old map of Harar featuring the Somali Gadabuursi Dir clan.jpg and claim it is about the Gadabuursi, Geri, Issa, Karanle, Hawiye, Berteri, Jidwaaq Somali communities is incorrect. Toltol15 (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

the reference to the clans are clearly shown in the map itself and the section of the book that it is mentioned is on the section of harar and the communities surrounding it.

The sections states: "The route between Shoa and Tajurah Bay does not enjoy, like that of Zeila, the advantage of a midway station such as the city of Harrar; still the principal town of the Amsa district, situated near the southern bank of a fresh-water lake, which receives the waters of the Awash, may be regarded as a veritable town."

read from page 200 onwards and the whole section is talking about the clans and communities from harar to zeila. so despite the fact that the photo is speaking about the lower awash, the author is highlighting the harar region. if you wish further context read the passage. MerseySide (talk) 18:43, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

those clan names are on the map itself. so I don't see why there is an issue, the whole section of the book is speaking about zeila, harar and the awash. the clan names are on the map surrounding harar in the section of the book speaking about harar. If you wish to add other maps of the region that's fine, but it's definitely wrong to remove verifiable and cited maps. MerseySide (talk) 18:48, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MerseySide: I read page 206 as you recommended, there is no mentions of those clans in page 200, and the map is on page 206 and the section is about Tajurah, Obok, Assab not about Harrar. The map is about the Afar people. Toltol15 (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

even if the title doesn't mention harar, the map shows the surrounding clans around harar and the section. so if you wish the title can be changed from 'an old map of harar' to 'old map of the lower awash showing xxx clans surrounding harar' etc. if you're suggesting a title change to what I've just suggested then I feel that's as justified as it can get. But not to remove it. Countless of wikipedia articles show maps of certain areas where the original link highlights the town and that passes wikipedia variability so long as the link is authentic. MerseySide (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

alternatively you can also

@MerseySide: This map is WP:OR because it is created to state conclusions the author never intended, the map should be renamed to Course of the Lower Awash.jpeg with a title and description to that fact and be added to the Awash wiki, it should not be in the Harrar wiki, the Gadabuursi clan is shown with the other Somali clans and Oromo in the one I added which is about Harrar and is from a reliable source where I properly credited the Author as per Wikipedia copywrite. Toltol15 (talk) 19:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

the author himself cited the map showing the town of harar clearly surrounded by certain clans and communities. the title could be changed due to OR, but because the town of harar is clearly highlighted it can be used as fair usage because the author himself depicted those communities and the town of harar, it is mentioned. if you read the caption on the wiki article, it mentions all the somali clans shown in the map, it doesn't only mention one clan.

if you wish alternatively we can get a 3rd opinion. MerseySide (talk) 20:23, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

the title could be changed to: a map of the Lower Awash region showing xxxxx clans surrounding the town of harar. this way it would not conflict, without any further doubt, with the wp:or although I don't believe it did initially. however I completely disagree that it should be removed and take to another page. the author himself depicted the town of harar clearly and he depicted the clans near the town. this isn't a case if conclusions being drawn that go against the authors intentions because he was the one who depicted it in the map. the title can change because the figure title is different, I agree with that. If you still disagree, maybe there could be a 3rd opinion. MerseySide (talk) 20:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

also I have no problem with the map you added, which is why I left it alone. the only issue with your map is that it is a regional map of harar which was later known as hararghe. So in actual fact it should also not be on this page because it doesn't only feature the town of harar which this article is about but the region of harar or hararghe. accordingly it should be placed in the hararghe wiki page because this article is about the town. MerseySide (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

i think since we disagree we should get a 3rd party opinion for both maps. tag an administrator and let's get their opinion. if they agree with you feel free to take out the map from this page. but I think it would be good to get an opinion for both maps. im not sure what the process is to get a 3rd party opinion so please do it for us.

thank you. MerseySide (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User: Toltol15

since you raised some concerns about the map, ill remove it from this page only. however ill edit the map you added to show that harar is surrounded by somali clans. however please do not remove it from anywhere else. MerseySide (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MerseySide: I will not remove your map from the Gadabuursi wiki but the Wikipedia people might, you can't edit maps willynilly, they might also remove this edited one you added, you are changing the intent of the author of these map. Toltol15 (talk) 22:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Map_of_the_French_Coast_of_the_Somalis_showing_Harar.jpg[reply]

@Toltol15: what does it mean when you say you are changing the intent of the author? it's just highlighting areas on the map that he drew. it's not re-interpreting it in anyway, you are just highlighting a section that is relevant to the article you are editing, for example if there is a map of harar that shows a somali clan for example, is it not reasonable to add that map to the article related to what is in the map?. almost all somali clan pages and African pages too have the same issue. the same issue you're highlighting you can find on the isaaq and issa pages aswell. i think there should be a third opinion because it's not re-interpreting anything, it's just highlighting what is on the map in the relevant article. that's perfectly fine. MerseySide (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinates[edit]

I extended the coordinates in the Info Box to agree with the one listed at the top of the article by adding the seconds...but then noticed that the minutes differed: "9.19.40" or "9.18.40". I don't have the time right now to check to see which is correct. If the difference still exists next time I'm in here, I'll give it a go. Thanks! WesT (talk) 17:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

9.18.40 is right in the middle of the town, so I corrected the Info Box to match. WesT (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fiqi Omar[edit]

Hi @Magherbin: you recently undid my edits I would like to know why I already added a source Thanks. JJ86803536 (talk) 05:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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