Talk:HMS Egyptienne (1799)

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Two Captains or One?[edit]

Is 'Captain Charles Elphinstone' really a different person from 'Captain Charles Fleeming', whose middle name was Elphinstone? Cenedi (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that a distinction was made between the two periods of command would suggest they are two people. There were a number of Charles Elphinstones in the navy of the period (see [1]), the later captain of Egyptienne may have been the same Captain Charles Elphinstone who was lost with HMS Blenheim (1761) in 1807. Benea (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another French Prize[edit]

Edward Elers Napier's biography of his stepfather (1862), p. 12, says another capture was the French sloop L'Acteon of 16 guns and 126 men. He lists her between L'Epervier and La Chiffonette, but doesn't give a date. Cenedi (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two questions[edit]

Hi Cenedi, Colledge says yes to Acteon, but puts it in 1805. Don't know about Elphinstone. There is a very tangled genealogy here, at least at first glance, with lots of re-using of subsets of names. I am still awaiting the arrival of my Winfield. That should help. But this name business may take some further untangling. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Acad Ronin, Elers Napier (loc cit) states all three prizes were captured while the ship 'for six months was actively employed in the Channel and off the coast of France' and, implicitly, while his stepfather Charles Napier was a midshipman in her. Which looks like he means 1803, since Napier was in Mediator in 1804-5. That conflicts with Colledge. We don't, of course, know what E Napier's sources were, or how good they were, but a lot of his statements seem to come from C. Napier himself. By the way, E Napier also (p. 13) says C Napier's service in Egyptienne ENDED with a voyage to St Helena, which he places AFTER the capture of the French ships. Cenedi (talk) 13:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cenedi, Good to know. I'll see what Winfield says, and then try and sort it all out. I don't take Colledge as definitive as I have caught him in a mistake or two, and that's only over 100 or so vessels,or fewer, that I have worked on. Rif isn't perfect either, (even I am not), but he has the advantage of working with official records, and benefiting from corrections to prior work. In general I trust records over memories, but as the discussion of HMS Howe (1805) shows, even official records may not really mirror what participants experienced. Rest assured, I will stay on top of this one too. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 13:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I have checked Winfield, Colledge, and Phillips, and pretty much everything I can find (other than Elers Napier's biography) says Egyptienne took Acteon in 1805. Looks like the Napiers were the victims of faulty memory in an era when they couldn't Google to fact check.

Also, her captain was still Charles Elphinstone Fleeming/Fleming. He commanded her at Cape St. Vincent, and also in October, when she took Acteon, and November when she took Paulina. Then in December he is aboard Gladiator in Portsmouth for Admiral Calder's court-martial. One problem with respect to tracking him is that because Elphinstone/Fleeming/Fleming went by all three names at different times, various people knew him under one or another. Acad Ronin (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, at least that seems to sort all that out. Thanks! Cenedi (talk) 10:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]