Talk:Húrin

Húrin has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: January 4, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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picture[edit]

can we please have a picture of him on this article? the one that depicts him with morgoth would do good for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.5.228 (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Haldir (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Haldir (disambiguation). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 21:09, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Harathor" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Harathor. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 15#Harathor until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Sketch Map of Beleriand.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

Passed. Frzzl talk; contribs 20:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Húrin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Frzzl (talk · contribs) 22:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy New Year, Chiswick Chap! I did say that I'd get around to one of your nominations at some point, and this has been waiting long enough. I'll get through some comments tomorrow. Frzzl talk; contribs 22:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, it has been a long wait indeed. Looking forward to the review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, review's done - please tell me if you have queries/ping me when you're done, and I can finish up the review. Frzzl talk; contribs 17:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

Lede[edit]

First paragraph's mostly fine. The second has two problems, which I'm seeing through the rest of the prose; convoluted sentences, and too much of an in-universe perspective.

Points:

Add a bracketed explanation of the difference between the Edain and regular men - the link currently redirects to Men in Middle-earth, and the lede of that doesn't mention them.
- Updated link anchor for the redirect, and added gloss.
Dark Lord Morgoth, one of the godlike Valar, - remove the latter clause; it's too much detail for the lede, and it's making the sentence more difficult to understand.
- Done.
lyric core should likely be in quotations
- Done.
Helen Lasseter Freeh comments on the version in Unfinished Tales where Húrin and Morgoth discuss one of Tolkien's themes, luck and fate in Middle-earth. - what does she actually say? The average reader would want to know what the character actually signifies/how Húrin is viewed in scholarship; the mere fact that he has been studied isn't very helpful. Either cut, or, if adding Freeh's opinions, change Húrin and Morgoth discuss one of Tolkien's themes, luck and fate in Middle-earth. to "Húrin and Morgoth discuss luck and fate; the current version sounds a little too meta to be plausible!
- Done.
Shippey remarks that Tolkien often provides double explanations of events, so that their cause could be luck, but could equally be fate, the will of the Valar. - please specify the events - later in the article, you write "terrible events in the Narn", which is a lot more helpful.
- Glossed.
, the will of the Valar seems a little too in-universe.
- Glossed.

Fictional history[edit]

They live with their uncle Haldir in Dor-lómin in Beleriand, when they join a war party against the Orcs. The brothers are cut off from their company and chased by Orcs in the Vale of Sirion. - can we make this "They live with their uncle Haldir in Dor-lómin in Beleriand. When they..."? The first part is continuous, the second instantaneous, so aligning them together feels a bit disjointed.
- Edited.
Link Turgon in the first usage.
- Done.
After twenty-eight years of imprisonment and the death of his children, Morgoth releases Húrin. - change the final full stop to a semi-colon before the quote.
- Done.
Who's Asgon? Could you add a bracket?
- Dropped him.
Likewise, who's Manthor? Would it easier to abstract this a little to take out mentions of the more minor characters?
- Can't see a way to do it here, so added a brief gloss.

Descent of Húrin[edit]

No comments, great diagram, Ilke the use of patterns instead of colours (more accessible)
- Thanks!

Analysis[edit]

'Whose fault?' Húrin's, for despair? Turgon's, for suspicion?" ... the list goes on - strikes me as slightly unencyclopaedic. Perhaps change to something along the lines of 'Tolkien's use of repeated questions asking "Whose fault?"'
- Edited.
is there - perhaps change to "is imprisoned"? Little less ambiguous
- Edited.
creates a very different effect to that of The Lord of the Rings which had already been written. - does Garbowski specify in what manner this effect is different? (more/less emotional etc.). Add a comma between "Rings" and "which". Very long sentences; can we split the final two, and reword to something along the lines of "He calls Shippey's description of the scene apt, a "posed tableau"' - a little simpler.
- Edited.
I'm aware that it appears in the infobox, but would it be possible to note somewhere in the prose the works in which Húrin appears? Would give some context to the long version in The Book of Lost Tales differs markedly from the account in The Silmarillion here
- Probably best not to repeat this.
Despite his imprisonment, Húrin insists that Morgoth cannot control everything, and while Morgoth does not directly contradict this, he says he will spread a "cloud of Doom" on everyone Húrin loves, and "wherever they go, evil shall arise". is 38 words long; can you split it in two?
- Done.

It is factually accurate and verifiable[edit]

a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): Earwig's only pains are a website that looks to be copying from Wikipedia. The reference section is well formatted and split by reference nature; there are no citation needed tags or blank endings. Since there's so few sources, I'll probably just do a full source review tomorrow and AGF on offline ones that I have no access to. - F

Spotchecks[edit]

Checked everything in the secondary sources section; happily, the Shippey is on Anna's Archive, and the rest is WL/Google Books/open access haha. As expected, I didn't find any issues with copyright violation, and every instance I checked was verifiable in the source text. So, pass with flying colours. I'm going to AGF on the primary sources. - F
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused): In depth, broadly covers the subject without going too in depth. The summary of his role in the plot is well written, and contains no fancruft.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: Opinions are presented with good balancing; seems to me a fair representation of viewpoints surrounding the character. - F
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: It'd be quite a feat to find an edit war here - you're pretty much the only editor to edit it recently. - F
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions): Only piece of media (File:Sketch Map of Beleriand.svg) used is your own and licensed correctly. The family tree is a nice touch; captions are fine throughout. - F
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.