Talk:Grey Gardens

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Disambiguation[edit]

This article should probably have a disambiguation page; "Grey Gardens" is the name of the estate, as well as the title of the documentary and also the title of a Rufus Wainwright song that alludes to it. MrDarwin 13:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The HBO film should have its own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.234.22 (talk) 10:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1975/1976[edit]

IMDB and Netflix list this film as 1975. Can anyone provide a citation for it's production/release year? - Special-T 03:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The film was premiered in October 1975 in New York. Edie Beale attended the premiere. This is according to Jonathan B. Vogels' book "The Direct Cinema of David and Albert Maysles". I think it would be an excellent starting point for citations. -Rotoshake 07:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cult Following[edit]

Shouldn't there be some sort of mention of the enormous cult following of this film? Mdell27 11:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There should be. Gaby (talk) 06:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Greygardens.jpg[edit]

Image:Greygardens.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Link Suggestion[edit]

I added a link to this page and it was subsequently deleted.

The link is to the Grey Gardens Discussion Group & Message Board (www.ggdiscussion.com).

It is not a commercial site, and is the only site on the Internet where fans of the Grey Gardens documentary can go to discuss this film with other fans. A link to this relevant, informative website deserves to be included in this Wikipedia page.

Zolarthegreat (talk) 01:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removing spam[edit]

I removed several website links - one is to an online discussion group, doesn't meet WP:EL standards. The other two were to websites about two people who had ties to the Beales. Not reliable info, not that relevant, badly written, and the sites seem to have been constructed to solicit information about these people. Not exactly a resource. - Special-T (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Grey Gardens" section is partially lifted[edit]

Hi, it seems that most of the description of the house in the section "Grey Gardens" is lifted from this site: http://www.easthamptonhistory.org/events/greygardens08-info2.html . Should this be rewritten or cited? 18.173.1.125 (talk) 15:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I re-worded it and cited the website. - Special-T (talk) 22:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Reference[edit]

Shouldn't the statement: 'The film was ranked number two by the World Film Academy in its "100 Greatest Documentaries of the 20th Century"' in the first paragraph be referenced? I cannot find any information on the "World Film Academy" or to the ranked list mentioned above, except with reference to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.237.78 (talk) 14:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice catch. In any event even it were true, it doesn't belong in the lead. Since I can't find it, I deleted it. Americasroof (talk) 17:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"reclusive socialites"[edit]

Oxymoron? —Tamfang (talk) 07:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply] 

  Yes, an oxymoron.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.192.35.125 (talk) 18:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts exactly. There is no such thing as a "reclusive socialite". You can be one, you can be the other, but not both. Suggest changing it to "reclusive FORMER socialites". 96.58.189.189 (talk) 00:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reference[edit]

Referenced in Battleground S.1 episode 9 (show produced by Hulu) at approx 5:05. An office has been vandalized and is in complete disarray, and a character makes the comment "Looks like Grey Gardens in here". I'm not certain about the deeper subtleties of the Grey Garden thing (just googled "grey Gardens") so I figured someone else should check it out.

References in other works: Music[edit]

I'm sending out a generalized request to include (if deemed worthy) to the section "References in Other Works: Music" for composer/songwriter Aaron Robinson who wrote the soundtrack for "Ghosts of Grey Gardens" that is also included on the album "La Belle Epoque". You can reference several titles including "Grey Gardens", "Waltz for Little Edie", "Big Edie", "The Marble Faun" that are quite popular. I am too unfamiliar with including musical credits within articles to edit this myself, but I am familiar with the subject in question to pose the connection. I hope someone can include the references and citations. Thanks.

maineartists (talk) 12:24, 07 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We'd want to show the notability of the work for inclusion here. WikkanWitch (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oh, wonderful! I was so hoping you'd reply! Glad to see you again. I trust your knowledge and expertise, WikkanWitch. So I see that you actually removed the band Six Gallery and the mention of their song "Edie and the Marble Faun". I'm sorry I brought this to your attention for their sake. I didn't mean for their inclusion to be removed. Could you educate me as to why they were non-notable yet the Canadian rock band Star's song "The Woods" were notable?
  • Inclusion of the above fore mentioned is not notable, I believe. (I actually got the title wrong, the soundtrack for the film is "In the Shadows of Grey Gardens", not "Ghosts of Grey Gardens". I get my docs mixed up!) Although I am not experienced enough to make that call. I just saw it on the other page you and I edited Lois Wright and then saw this section and wondered. But I'm still curious so if I ever run up against it in the future I'll know. Thanks.

maineartists (talk) 07:03, 08 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, notability is highly subjective, but there are guidelines for determining whether a subject is notable. Check out WP:N for more information. In general, it can be assumed that the presence of an article on a subject shows that it has been determined by the community to be notable (although this can change, and an article can be removed for not being notable). Because there is not article on "Six Gallery", the inclusion of their song is not notable, so I removed it from the list. Because In the Shadows of Grey Gardens does not fit this requirement, its soundtrack likely does not warrant inclusion in the list. Hope this helps! Other editors, please weigh in as well! WikkanWitch (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's what I thought. But is the notability simply the work itself? or does the artist sometimes supersede the notability to include a certain work simply for the connection alone? There are minuets by Bach that are far from notability, but because they are by Bach, they are deemed notable, I'm sure. I see that the band Star is a signed group, but still an Indie label (similar to Six Gallery). In reviewing the Wiki article for the album Hearts, I am having difficulty seeing the notability in its inclusion. There are no awards. No reviews in any major music magazines or online media sites such as Billboard. The only references are Allmusic and Pitchforkmedia (which are not reliable sources: much like you removed IMDB from Lois Wright - it's the same in the music world - any one can submit information). All it really looks like is that someone within the industry has done a lot of work on Wikipedia to promote their albums and artists with never ending links. I suppose if Six Gallery wanted to do the same, they could. I was once told that Wiki articles actually are not a reliable sources within themselves and do not promote notability. If this is true, is Star's album Hearts really any different than that of Six Gallery? Is the proof of existence only to claim mention within this section and provide a reliable source? Is the notability for the artist or the work? Thus lies the subjectivity. Where is the fine line? and who makes the decision? If Six Gallery put in the work and time on Wikipedia that someone did for Star's Hearts, would that allow them inclusion? and really should that only be the reason? Food for thought. Just curious. Thanks for answering! I appreciate your insight.
  • I'm also quite perplexed as to how the inclusion of the Newkirk CD and Book is considered notable and not self-promotion. The links are not reliable sources and clearly self-published material. Newkirk had nothing to do with the film. Why is he even mentioned in this article? There is a lovely documentary called "Ghosts of Grey Gardens" by filmmaker Liliana Greenfield-Sanders which had its premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival (which I believe warrants notability), not to mention her connection to the Maysles and Grey Gardens itself, yet this is not included. Could I be so bold to remove the Newkirk for lack of notability and self-promotion, and include the Documentary by Greenfield-Sanders with proper reliable sources?

maineartists (talk) 09:04, 09 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've had the same thoughts about that CD and book. Why not create a new section on this Talk page for discussion? As we've been discussing, there is a lot of gray area, surrounding these decisions, and that's where Talk pages come in handy! The intent is that we, as a community, can reach a consensus. – WikkanWitch (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Non-notable works[edit]

Walter Newkirk CD and Book[edit]

I am starting this section as a discussion regarding the notability for inclusion of Walter Newkirk's CD Little Edie Live! A Visit to Grey Gardens and his scrapbook memoir MemoraBEALEia as I believe it to be not in keeping with Wikipedia standards. My reasons for raising this topic for discussion are as follows:

  • Walter Newkirk was not in the film Grey Gardens and had nothing to do with the film - which this article is about. If he was, as is stated: "a long time friend of Little Edie" (without proper citation, by the way), then it should be moved to the article Edith Bouvier Beale and cited properly.
  • Neither the subject nor his works in question are notable as required by Wikipedia standards for inclusion.
  • The CD and Book are both self-published (Authorhouse is a Vanity Press for self-publishing authors) and inclusion are linked to self-promotion websites since both are primary sources that encourage the sales of each item by its creator and Facebook page.

I strongly recommend that this be removed for the above reasons; or at least encourage a discussion to support its remaining within the article. -- maineartists (talk) 04:28, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with the assessment above. Additionally, the "Aftermath" section has been flagged as containing references to self-publishes sources since February of this year, primarily referring to this final paragraph. – WikkanWitch (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Me too. Looks like this was a good call (sticking my head in here, as I have also been working with Maineartists on another article) -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Adaptations; References in other works[edit]

I'd also add the mentions of A Few Small Repairs by David Robson and Little Edie & The Marble Faun by David Lally to the list of works to remove from this page. They seem to lack the criteria for notability, as well as any references. Additionally, "loosely based" and "inspired by" this work and others seem too tangental for inclusion. – WikkanWitch (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After considerable thought on the above mentioned and studying other articles with sections titled "Adaptations" I thought that another contributor would edit this but enough time has passed that I thought it safe to remove on the following grounds: the two inclusions (A Few Small Repairs and Little Edie & The Marble Faun) are not actual adaptions but works inspired by the film. These are two separate categories and should not combined. Maineartists (talk) 6:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Also a good call: Neither playwright is notable, and the plays were not produced by major theatre companies. If one of the, for example, were to be played Off-Broadway or received substantial critical attention, we can always add it back to the article in the future. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I also commented out most of this material, which was unreferenced and did not make clear what its connection was with Grey Gardens. Mere passing mentions, like that on Real Housewives, is not significant enough to mention, so I deleted it. The others should either be deleted, if they are mere passing mentions, but if they are important or ongoing references, they should be restored with references. You can see what I hid by looking at the article's edit screen. BTW, If you think that something IS notable and should be mentioned, like a song or soundtrack or anything, but there is no article about it yet, you can put up a stub or short article about it, and then you will be able to link it here, together with a reference that says that it is an adaptation or work inspired by Grey Gardens.-- Ssilvers (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Editors[edit]

Susan Froemke was removed from the credits as an editor in a revision made at 22:20, 22 October 2014, by "10222014B". There was no attribution whatsoever, and it contradicts several sources, including the official website of the film itself. The user also said, without citation, that Froemke had not in fact worked as an editor on the film. The same scurrilous remark appears in the film's "Trivia" section on IMDB, and I have asked that site to either attribute it or remove it. Ridiculous. Lisztmacher (talk) 11:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jerry Torre[edit]

Since having created a separate article relating to Lois Wright I wonder if such an article would be warranted to represent the remaining participant: Jerry Torre - not yet published on Wikipedia. I've started this discussion here to consider the notability of the subject. He starred in both Grey Gardens and The Beales of Grey Gardens. He has had a full length documentary made about his life entitled: The Marble Faun of Grey Gardens and his character was portrayed in the musical Grey Gardens. Among other interesting facts pertaining to his life, he is an accomplished artist who has been written about in several established magazines and newspapers such as The New Yorker, The New York Times, Newsday, The Huffington Post, among others. I welcome a discussion regarding this subject. Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 13:10, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jerry Torre "The Marble Faun"[edit]

Hello. I have recently created the page: Jerry Torre "The Marble Faun" in keeping with the participants in this film: Edith Bouvier Beale, Edith Ewing Bouvier Beale, and Lois Wright. I thought it only fair. I have tried my best, after diligently gathering all notable and reliable sources, to create a worthy WP article in keeping with the other three articles. I would appreciate a fresh set of eyes, however, as it is not patrolled at present. You may find the page here: [1] Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 21:23, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Should we include the subjects' relationship to Jackie O in the lede?[edit]

I came here from the Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Masters_of_Cinema_releases_(2nd_nomination) afd discussion, since this film is on that list and I wanted to see if Masters of Cinema played any part in the article, including categories. I remembered the title from reading years ago that this film was notable for showing the juxtaposition between Jackie O and her relatives. The info about their relation was buried in the background section, below the lede and even below the cast. Since this is a main reason why the film got so much attention, I added a sentence to the lede, which was quickly reverted. My edit is here [[2]]. I'm opening a friendly discussion about why this info should or shouldn't be more prominent in the lede. My rationale: I think you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage of the film that doesn't make the relationship with Jackie O the main thrust. You can Google the title and read the opening sentences mentioning Jackie O in the top Google results. Jackie O is mentioned in the Guardian even before the names of the subjects [[3]]. The first sentence here mentions the relationship [[4]]. PBS mentions Jackie O right off the bat [[5]] Jackie O was even the original subject of the movie [[6]]. Early mention here as well [[7]] Indeed, I can only find one article in mainstream coverage that doesn't mention Jackie O [[8]]. It's not WP:UNDUE - I'll argue it's a critical theme of the movie, prominently featured in almost every piece of coverage. Pinging Maineartists, the editor who reverted me. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 19:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bad Reference Cited[edit]

Reference 7 (https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-28602506) doesn't link to any relevant information about this film. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.116.156.60 (talk) 18:42, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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