Talk:Great Replacement

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2023

This post provides false information that imposes a false political agenda. Please remove mention of conspiracy or right wing mention as it is unrelated to politics. 2601:5C4:4301:4240:EC37:4560:E077:3BAB (talk) 18:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

What post? - FlightTime (open channel) 19:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

This is misinformation

If you look at Frances demographics based on race since the early 1900's this is no longer conspiracy 2601:58C:407F:3450:A040:8B06:8F52:AA31 (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

So, is the French government imposing a one-child policy upon Whites? Guess not. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

How is it relevant to the fact, or not, the original major ethnicity is getting replaced by a foreign ones?

Whether the "great replacement" is encouraged or not by some malicious hidden intent (conspiracy theory) isn't involved to the fact a population is factually getting replaced by one or some others in proportion of population.

And it's not nationalist/racist to observe this phenomenon with objective eyes. 195.101.88.55 (talk) 15:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Framing it as "replaced" certainly is nationalist/racist. Objective eyes call it migration. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Can we include the figure in the article? I would like to be enlightened and understand whether it's a phenomenon or not. Some say it's a conspiracy theory. I think a figure would be helpful to determine whether that is true or not. 82.147.226.185 (talk) 15:56, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The goal of a Wikipedia article is not to encourage WP:Original Research, but rather to summarize the description of a topic by all of the significant opinions on a topic.Sadads (talk) 12:10, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Figure?

Would it make sense to add a figure showing the absence or presence of displacement over time in various countries? I'm guessing this kind of data must be available for countries such as Germany, France and Sweden? 82.147.226.185 (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Demographic changes naturally occur. That's not what this article is about. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

What O3000 said. The conspiracy theory is the cause of the change. Not the change itself. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

This sentence confused me at first because of slightly clumsy wording. It should be: The conspiracy theory is about the cause of the change. (The conspiracy theory did not cause the change.) --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The elephant in the room (which you are carefully tip-toeing around) is that the reason this conspiracy theory exists at all is because of that demographic change. To neglect to even mention said change can only be a misguided ideological motivation, and, I would argue, this has backfired and contributed to perceptions of minorities as a larger proportion of the population than they really are in most countries, multiplying the divisiveness. 172.59.186.91 (talk) 14:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

That'd be kind of WP:SYNTH though. This isn't an article about demographic change - it's an article about a white-supremacist delusion surrounding demographic change. Simonm223 (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

explain to me how it is delusion when Labour literally admitted to it https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html NotQualified (talk) 02:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Does that article mention the "Great Replacement"? (I cannot read it.) If it doesn't, we cannot use it because of WP:SYNTH. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

by name? no. because the term hadnt been popularised by then. is it describing in detail what the conspiracy entails, yes. it is a labour offical literally admitting to breaking immigration barriers to replace white working class voters as a voting base after they lost to thatcher. this argument is just semantics rather than substance, even if in good faith. is commentary on muhammad ali invalid if an article only mentioned cassius clay? no, thats silly. the issue here is one of semantic change rather than the article being wrong in any manner. am i missing something here or can we re-include this NotQualified (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Then it is not useable in the article because of WP:SYNTH. You cannot just add random sources because you imagine a connection to the subject. --Hob Gadling (talk)

Bah. If that demographic change went in the other direction, the sort of people who believe in that stuff would find another excuse for xenophobic conspiracy theories. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

while i agree with you somewhat Hob, thats not relevant and youve just admitted bias. if youre not capable of writing about this impartially, dont. the demographic change has massively changed in europe and you have no actual justification for not including it besides your own beliefs. even beliefs that are not nice must be written about impartially. NotQualified (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, bah. Instead of trying to disqualify other users from editing by accusations of bias, editors should use valid non-ad-hominem reasoning. The article is still about the conspiracy theory and not about demographic changes. Regarding "impartiality", read WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

hob, you dismissed the inclusion because you think it's a xenophobic excuse. this is literally about demographic change and youre choosing not to add it. if im interpreting correct. please clarify how i used non-ad-hominem reasoning. again, this is a conspiracy about demographics and youre rejecting the inclusion of those figures because it's a "xenophobic excuse" even though those figures are literally the root cause of the conspiracy itself. NotQualified (talk) 12:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

this is literally about demographic change - "this", as in your contribution. Not "this" as "this article". Your contributions are off-topic. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

can you explain to me how a conspiracy about people being replaced by another group of peope is not about demographic change then? NotQualified (talk) 15:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Population shifts done intentionally by a sinister cabal arranging that, and called "Great Replacement" by the source: on topic. Population shifts happening naturally or without any reason given: off topic. Simple. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

> Population shifts done intentionally by a sinister cabal arranging that

this i will honor as it is a very fair term, if proven i want figures to be shown, and if not, i will begrudgingly accept no figures being shown however i do not speak for everyone, just me.

> and called "Great Replacement" by the source

this one is an unfair goalpost due to how recent the term has been coined. for sources that are around 2011, this will not be honored. if i source something from around then and it doesnt say it outright but quite describes it to a tee im happily sourcing it and the WP:SYNTH argument is silly. if however it is a recent source, i will consider that mostly fair (with obvious exceptions e.g. different language or synonmyous term or undeniable description of conspiracy). to recap, semantic change takes time, respect that. you cant expect every coined term to be popularised in a few years from total obscurity.

is the above sound?

for my own safekeeping, i am providing this unreliable source i do not intend to use. it's just useful for quotes i can backtrack and ensure later on. ignore the link please. [1]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2326352/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Peter-Mandelson-admits-Labour-brought-migrants-losing-working-class-votes.html NotQualified (talk) 18:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

this one is an unfair goalpost I give up. You want to ignore the rules and refuse to listen, so I will just wait until you are banned indefinitely for WP:NOTHERE. Bye. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

fine, i wont edit it and will let other editors decide. i am not trying to be in breach of the rules. i will ask around that wp synth forum if semantic change is considered for sourcing. i dont want to ignore rules. i have tried to listen, i didnt just go edit the article and start an editing war. i get my tone is sterile, sorry, but theres no need to be mean. NotQualified (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

i concur, not mentioning demographic change for a conspiracy that came to fruition because of it is ludicrous and does not make any sense. if you agree with it or not is irrelevant as we are supposed to be impartial and this is blatantly ideologically motivated. i would like better reasoning, or add it to the article. NotQualified (talk) 02:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Migration issues and demographic change are mentioned in the article, in the first paragraph of the "Background" section and the first paragraph of the "Analysis" section. That's enough, since, as other editors have pointed out, the article is about the conspiracy theory and not about demographic change. Of course, it would be possible to write about all the reasons why demographic change occurs naturally over the years and decades and centuries, and about the effects of immigration -- mostly beneficial -- but that would amount to a systematic refutation of the racist nonsense that the Great Replacement theorists are pushing, and that would deviate hugely from the proper focus of this article. NightHeron (talk) 03:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

> Migration issues and demographic change are mentioned

apologies i misspoke you are correct. *"not mentioning the figures of demographic change" is what i meant to say.

> is about the conspiracy theory and not about demographic change.

the conspiracy is about demographic change, thats the whole point of it.

> Of course, it would be possible to write about all the reasons why demographic change occurs naturally over the years and decades and centuries, and about the effects of immigration -- mostly beneficial -- but that would amount to a systematic refutation of the racist nonsense that the Great Replacement theorists are pushing, and that would deviate hugely from the proper focus of this article.

i never said any of this, i simply said the figures should be included, because again - that is literally what this conspiracy roots from. i dont find your "some other xenophobic excuse" rebuke valid. NotQualified (talk) 12:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Suppose we gave demographic figures without context or analysis based on reliable sources, followed by a description of Great Replacement theory -- which is apparently what you want the article to do. That would give the impression that the racist conspiracy theory is a rational response to data, which is false, and it would violate WP:FALSEBALANCE. NightHeron (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

again i dont even think it's fair to call it a racist conspiracy theory when the link i provided literally shows labour actually tried and did do this, unless my link is wrong. also, people obviously do believe in it due to the changing demographics and showing those demographic changes isnt a validation that those changes are intentional or not, thats your own perception. this does not violate false balance as again, it literally is the root cause of the theory. this is literally a theory about being replaced demographically and youre arguing show the stats of that is off topic or / and racist. i dont want to start some edit war but i feel like we're hitting an impasse here between you not wanting to offend and trying to say it's because it's "not relevent" and me saying it's literally the root cause and we can report on that maturely while still not condoning or condemning it. again, a wiki of a conspiracy about demographic change is not allowed to show the demographic change - youre failing to justify this. NotQualified (talk) 16:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I have been following this story, but for me, to actually place it in the realm of the conspiracy theory, there would have to be some sort of racial or otherwise explicitly demographic component. That is, advocating for immigration in general doesn't actually support the theory unless there's advocacy for certain kinds of immigrants. Perhaps there has been reporting along those lines, but if so, I have missed it. Can you point me to any? Dumuzid (talk) 17:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

> to actually place it in the realm of the conspiracy theory, there would have to be some sort of racial or otherwise explicitly demographic component

i disagree, simply showing the demographic changes will let people make up their own mind on if theyre dramatic enough, we arent meant to be biased but again - this is what the theory is about.

> That is, advocating for immigration in general doesn't actually support the theory unless there's advocacy for certain kinds of immigrants

is this a requirement outright for the theory that it has to be a specific type of migrant on racial grounds? the article i linked was more about them trying to find them based off of ideological grounds to replace the working class votes they lost. i disagree. as labour is britain and i guess thats what we have proof it was done with, muslims generally vote labour at 80-90 percent rates consistently but thats not even a race thats a religious group and theyve just split off into independent groups due to starmer's israel stance. can you re-evaluate and be specific on what conditions need to be to be placed "in the realm of the conspiracy theory"? i dont know much about this theory to begin with, im only here cause i was editing another article and came here. can someone more knowledgeable provide info? NotQualified (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

So, in order for there to be a replacement, there would have to be some kind of uniting factor, I should think. Immigration in general is not "replacement" because it doesn't have any sort of cohesive demographic effect. Again, the conspiracy theory at issue is that some sort of cultural or political elites are trying to replace white European populations with some other group. Simply throwing open the doors is not "replacing" anyone. When you say "trying to find them based off of ideological grounds," I am not quite sure in which sense you mean--does this mean "Labour's ideology led them to seek more immigrants" or "Labour sought out immigrants of a certain ideology"? The former seems obvious to me, the latter I haven't really seen supported, but I could have missed it. Again, no expert here, but the Lord Mandelson brouhaha has seemed very much to me about immigration at the highest level of abstraction, i.e., how many immigrants is optimal for the U.K.? If you could point me to sources that talk more about the specific kinds of immigrants sought, that would help. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

> "Labour sought out immigrants of a certain ideology"

yes this is what i mean but the former was also true.

> Again, no expert here

me either, i didnt expect to get into such heated arguments over this. for god's sake im a leftist hahahaha.

> sources

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2326352/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Peter-Mandelson-admits-Labour-brought-migrants-losing-working-class-votes.html

this one is too dodgy to include, it's by the daily mail and thats not an accepted source on wikipedia. if i can either verify it somehow (way too lazy but feel free anyone else) or find another similar source that backs what is said, it'll be proof and i'll be adding it to the article that labour actually did do this according to mandelson. NotQualified (talk) 18:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Gemini chatbot race replacement

I recently added this content which I had copied from Gemini_(chatbot).

User:Firefangledfeathers deleted it and commented, "Reverted good faith edits by Mn06hithere227 (talk): This content and the sources cited are not about the great replacement conspiracy theory."

I am curious to hear what others think of this:

In February 2024, users of Google Gemini reported that it was generating images that featured racial and gender diversity in historically inaccurate contexts, primarily among White people such as Vikings and Nazi soldiers, and refusing prompts to generate images of White people. Many conservatives in the U.S. promoted these reports online, citing them as evidence of Google's "wokeness". In response, product lead Jack Krawczyk said that Google was "working to improve these kinds of depictions immediately", and Google paused Gemini's ability to generate images of people.

Mn06hithere227 (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I would have to agree that Great Replacement is not the right place for this content. Great Replacement Theory primarily deals with a purported conspiracy to replace white people demographically in white majority countries. This AI prompting error would appear to be more related to a failure related to corporate diversity efforts. An article in that area might be a more appropriate place for this content. Ottawajin (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

No connection to the subject. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Emphasis from "Replacement Migration," but not vice versa

It's been suggested more than once that this concept is directly linked with published studies such as the UN Replacement Migration papers that disambiguate/emphasize with this Great Replacement article. It is obviously and prominently linked in the lower traffic article, but official editors refuse to acknowledge the inclusion or citation in the opposite direction, from within this article.

I personally feel it is already disingenuous to suggest the GR theory is a "conspiracy theory," and not an ideology or response to an ideology about immigration, demographics, etc. To completely ignore or dismiss the real, studied, and cited basis for this response to an idealogical solution to a complex problem, appears to be it's own bias.
 Im sure this is improperly formatted, and lacking all the bespoke Wiki vocabularly, links etc. Im also not qualified to make an actual edit, if it's even possible. However, I hope that showing up here and presenting a decent argument for a less bias Wikipedia can be appreciated in good faith, and that someone else will be able to improve the actual articles. 2601:603:381:7640:216E:301C:9767:74C2 (talk) 02:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

You think "I personally feel" is "a decent argument"?

Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, not on the feelings of random people on the internet. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Well said. It should be mentioned - directly in the preambule, not at the bottom - "White demographic decline" article and pro-immigration policy in EU as background / fuel, why do not mention it? Clearly biased. Feww2 (talk) 11:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I repeat: Get reliable sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Every unbiased native speaking editor can find them. It's common sense. That when Merkel invited 1 million migrants in Germany, it fueled "replacement" sentiment. Feww2 (talk) 09:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

If it's so easy, then bring them. You are the one who wants to add something that confirms your opinion. It's your job to find a foundation, you cannot delegate that to others. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Somebody has no idea how to cite sources, so I'll do it for him:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10109-018-00290-y

Depopulation is projected, with the opposing outlier being immigrant fertility. The demographic picture is not in question, the conspiracy theory here merely lies in the assertion of some sort of perverse motivations to allow this, or an ideology in response to demographic change, rather than that demographic change itself. 172.59.186.91 (talk) 13:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

This does not appear to be correct.

The "great replacement" conspiracy theory is a misnomer, it is intact named replacement migration and is an economic policy that has been in place since 2000.

The United nations noted most of the western nations (and others) had sub replacement birth rates and as such would have a negative economic effect as time goes one, as such multiple nations began mass importing of migrants as workers from other nations.

You can find the document here on Google as Wikipedia has blacklisted it for some reason.

UN replacement migration 2000.

here you see the UK government officially adopts the policy

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a797506ed915d0422068986/migration-report-july-2000.pdf

While the migration observatory tracks a clear trend showing the native English population will become a minority in a relative short period.

minhttps://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-impact-of-migration-on-uk-population-growth/

As such the page should be updated to show this is in fact not a conspiracy theory linked to neo Nazis but a government policy recommended by the United nations and implemented by the UK Labour Party under Tony Blair and continued under the Tories under David Cameron Et-al Formosa1701 (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Please read the entire article. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

None of the documents cited say anything like the conclusions you draw from them. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

the Oxford Observatory directly states given current demographic projections the native English will become a minority.

The UN replacement migration policy is also clearly the influence of the 2000 policy on migration under the Blair government even using the same data and information. Formosa1701 (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This article is not about demographics, it's about a conspiracy theory that it's all a plot. See the big red notice at the top of this page about drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact. Acroterion (talk) 01:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The Article is indeed about demographics as how those demographic changes are feeding this "conspiracy theory", the facts however show that demographic change is indeed happening and that government policy based upon the UN replacement migration report is the reason.

The oxford migration observatory data also backs this up as since 1997 the start of mass immigration in the UK has only increased as this policy was carried forward by multiple governments. Formosa1701 (talk) 11:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

You would have to define "native English," which the Oxford report does not do; the Replacement Migration UN document from 24 years ago is a report, not a policy; and similarly, the UK document from 24 years ago, cites to the UN for basic facts. Not only are you peddling unsupported and unpersuasive arguments, the arguments are laughably out of date. Dumuzid (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The United Nations defines native as

“Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them"

This would make the white English, Welsh, Scots and Irish natives in this context, the report is the origin of the policy, the policy has clearly been implemented across multiple western nations and we are seeing the result, this policy cannot be out of date if it is still in use as shown by the current Tory government policy allowing over a million legal migrants per year.

The facts and data speak for themselves. Formosa1701 (talk) 11:20, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Your analysis of old data isn’t admissible on Wikipedia. Reliable sources describe a conspiracy theory, whose proponents turn up here regularly to promote. Acroterion (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The data is current and ongoing, you are incorrect in calling it "old data" as the Oxford migration observatory keeps very recent records. The UN replacement migration report is still also still current as it is still used to underpin current policies.

Reliable sources show that replacement migration is happening as per the report and as such the Wiki should be updated with a tab to reflect that this report exists, is implemented within government policy and trends show that native people are being displaced due to this policy.

this will aid in allowing free flow of information for people to be better informed in their voting choices as this page existing is spreading misinformation claiming government migration policy is a "far right" conspiracy theory. Formosa1701 (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence the report is still current

A key question widely debated in policy circles, particularly at international level, is whether migration is a possible solution to the economic and social challenges associated with population ageing and decline – i.e. the sustainability of pension systems, the provision of long-term care for older people, labour and skill shortages, higher labour cost, a decrease of the relative influence in the global economy. The question has been brought to the attention of policy-makers at the beginning of last decade by the United Nations’ report on ‘replacement migration’ (United Nations 2000) – although several earlier studies had already explored the issue (Blanchet 1989, Coleman 1992). The general conclusion of these studies has been that, although highly positive net migration can contribute to sustaining population and workforce growth, in the long run it cannot prevent population ageing under any plausible and politically sustainable scenario.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/primers/demographic-objectives-in-migration-policy-making/ Formosa1701 (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Even granted that it's true, it does not concern this article. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

No one is arguing about demographic data, not even the sources in the article. The article is not about the population changes per se and does not suggest that said changes are false or misconstrued or that people who point it out are conspiracy theorists. Rather, the article is about the conspiracy theory related to those data, namely that there is intentional complicity by certain elites with the goal of decreasing the precent of the White population. That's it. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Your analysis of new data isn’t admissible on Wikipedia either. Why don't you just read the rules about WP:OR? --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you read the article and its sources? It's about the conspiracy theory, not your interpretations of demographics. And again, read the big red notice, which says the same thing. Acroterion (talk) 12:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I have read the article, it directly references demographics as the source for the "conspiracy theory" and makes the claim "the great replacement" is a conspiracy theory, it is not, it is a misnomer, as such the article should be updated to include the fact that this "conspiracy theory" and is in fact misunderstood due to misinformation, keep the data referencing the conspiracy theory but also include the data showing the correct information on the subject to better inform people.

Wikipedia is about educating without bias and inclusion of the replacement migration report will aid this. Formosa1701 (talk) 12:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The source of the conspiracy theory is conspiracy theorists. Demographic change is simply the "event" they use as described here. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Formosa1701 is surely veering into forum territory and this should be hatted I think. Doug Weller talk 13:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention this is a single purpose account wasting our time. Doug Weller talk 13:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe you should relearn your British history. This description makes the English a colonial power. So perhaps you should be championing England for the Welsh? Remember, Hengist and Horsa were invading immigrants. Dumuzid (talk) 13:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

it is no longer reasonable to call this far-right

Getting to WP:IDHT and WP:NOTFORUM territory with off-topic discussion of whether the far right winning elections means they're now no longer far-right.

this belief has started to shift mainstream into conservative discourse. making a talk page to get consensus on if thats fair assessment NotQualified (talk) 02:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC) Then again, perhaps it is conservative discourse that has shifted to the far-right. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC) other way round actually. would anyone know any stats on this particularly cause otherwise i have to just go off anti-migrant sentiment? with the rise of meloni, le pen, wilders, orban, tusk (less right than PiS but still), (i could keep going but in short, EU is on track for a major right shift along with trump's 2016 win promising a muslim ban. generally the entire anglosphere besides britain (incohesive right) and new zealand). even ireland, who has never had a "right wing" party in a traditional sense has wildly gone anti-migrant. this has definitely started making in-roads into regular conservative discourse, calling it far-right is inaccurate if we assume a reasonable co-relation between anti-migrant and Great Replacement rhetoric, the overton window has shifted since that. i say we write "the theory originated in the far right, starting in 2011, but has since made in-roads into mainstream conservative discourse." if anyone has more direct polling on this specifically please provide it. NotQualified (talk) 13:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC) No. We're not laundering the far right just because they succeeded in grabbing some power. Simonm223 (talk) 13:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC) sorry mate but they literally won elections, unless they were rigged (which you can try to prove) you cant deny that it's now mainstream conservatism. if they were losing, id agree - they arent losing. they are nearly consistently winning, besides le pen who currently has a 10 point lead on macron. macron now started adopting her policies. also, your usage of "laundering" shows bias rather than objective reporting. thats against the rules, i am left wing but i still try to be fair and objective. NotQualified (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC) Rephrasing Simon's reasoning: No, when someone gets lots of votes, or even voted into governments, it does not mean that their opinions are true. Sometimes, lots of people are stupid and gullible, and following majorities is argumentum ad populum, a well-known fallacy. Can you please stop this? Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say and not on what Wikipedia users conclude. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:22, 7 May 2024 (UTC) i am not claiming it is true or false. you are fighting ghosts. i am arguing it isnt far-right, it is JUST right as it is the mainstream right narrative by popularity. left and right are literally just abstract concept terms that only exist relative to each other. what is right wing in denmark is left wing in america. "Sometimes, lots of people are stupid and gullible" is not an argument, the views they hold are the mainstream of the right and thus it is not far-right but JUST right. you can hate them all you want, you can call them racist and unfounded, but the views are not fringe views that only lunatic who fail to win elections have, they are the views of the parties winning all across europe. > Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say and not on what Wikipedia users conclude i mean this in the least snarky way possible. please look at hipocrisy. you two are literally refusing to edit this as it "launders" an opinion you dont like, rather than looking at the fact they are consistently winning elections while running these narratives. you are the one inserting your opinion into this. the burden of proof is now on you to prove these views arent of the mainstream right wing, otherwise im editing this article to say theyve shifted mainstream, because quite frankly they have and youre just in denial. it doesnt matter if the opinion is bullshit nonsense or not, it is the mainstream view - they are winning, consistently, across most of europe. the overton window has shifted and you need to stop living in fantasy land. if you give me one more emotional argument (pathos) to why this shouldnt be included, rather than a logical one (logos), i am editing this and considering this discussion finished. i have given my reasonings. i am fine with writing something along the crude and slimmed down lines of: "this movement started in the far-right in 2011 and has gradually shifted into mainstream discourse with figures like XYZ winning elections off of them and anti-migrant polling rising across europe and north america". i'll write something like that unless you have an argument of why not, my due diligence is done. NotQualified (talk) 14:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC) two possible arguments for this not being mainstream i can think of (if you can prove them) are rigged elections or low voter turnout not reflecting true mainstream opinions NotQualified (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC) This is meaningless without reliable sources. Acroterion (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC) Agreed. We simply do not look at, say, elections and say that we should use our own analysis instead of sources considered reliably published by our guidelines and policies. Doug Weller talk 15:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)