Talk:Full breakfast

Full Cornish Breakfast

I'm not going to revert again, but I really think that this is excessive detail. Regarding Fooboo's edit summary when reverting me ('Reverted - Cornwall is a country Dublin is not') - I understand that it's a somewhat thorny issue, but officially Cornwall is a county within England, just as Dublin is a county (as well as a city) within Ireland. I could just as easily create a section differentiating a 'Full Galway Breakfast' from a 'Full Dublin Breakfast', but that would really open the floodgates to an absolutely huge article with lots of pointless ephemera in it. In addition to this the description of 'Cornish potato cakes' - well, those are just potato cakes, the same as the ones you get anywhere in the UK or Ireland. In fact the only 'real' difference is the addition of hogs pudding which is quite similar to black pudding as found elsewhere. Thoughts? Kaini (talk) 00:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. We're getting in to too much detail for what is basically the same thing. Unless it can be shown that Cornwall has a distinctly different breakfast, it should be removed. And, as Kaini correctly points out, Dublin is a county in Ireland, but that would not justify having a separate entry for a Dublin breakfast.--Dmol (talk) 02:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hog's pudding is nothing like black pudding, the only vague similarity is the shape. They are different in taste, colour, size, and texture. I get 116,000 hits on google for "Full Cornish Breakfast", but only 38,300 for "Full Welsh Breakfast", yet the only thing different about the Welsh one is the addition of Laverbread (the reference given doesn't even refer to breakfast). Indeed if you read this link, http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tm_objectid=16289602&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=so-what-is-a--full-welsh-breakfast---name_page.html, you'll realise that it's not even a "traditional Welsh breakfast." 86.184.8.129 (talk) 11:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC) and reading the article again it would seem that the Scottish breakfast isn't that dissimilar to the Cornish one and the same arguments that you are trying to use could be used there as well: "In Scotland the full breakfast; as with others contains eggs, back bacon, link sausage, buttered toast, baked beans and tea or coffee. The breakfast is made Scottish by the addition of Scottish style black pudding, sliced sausage and tattie scones. It commonly also includes fried or grilled tomato and/or mushrooms and occasionally haggis, white pudding, fruit pudding or oatcakes. As with other breakfasts it has become more common, especially within the home, to grill the meats, puddings and tomatoes and to only fry the eggs and tattie scones." 86.184.8.129 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

P.S. No results found for "Full Galway Breakfast" on Google 86.184.8.129 (talk) 11:55, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, I meant white pudding, not black pudding. My feelings are that if the Scottish breakfast is similar (I would argue nearly identical) it should take precedence, as it's officially a country, not a county (or technically Duchy) like Cornwall is. So, my point stands. Kaini (talk) 12:25, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

My two-pence worth (and not a comment as to whether this section should be included or not), but Hog's pudding is different to white pudding - in addition to offal, it is supposed to have pearl barley in it (barley and barely bread being Cornish staples back in the day). When you fry it, the grains brown and crack, giving an interesting texture - it's more like haggis in this respect. Also, Cornish potato cakes are not exactly like potato farls, or tattie scones - they contain more potato and have a lot of butter in them - the taste and texture is much richer. Small differences maybe, but differences none-the -less Mammal4 (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps - I'm merely going off the description given at the wiki article for Hogs pudding. Although for what it's worth I've had white pudding with pearl barley in it here in Ireland (typically sold as 'Clonakilty white pudding'), which perhaps further illustrates my point with regards to regional variations on the full breakfast. I'm going to ask for some input over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink so we can get a broader range of opinions on this. Kaini (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably a good idea. I've had the same white pudding whilst over in Cork, but I wouldn't call it Hog's pudding (the Clonakilty brand of black pudding incidently was the best I've ever had). Part of the problem I've always seen with this article is that it attempts to describe essentially the same thing from several different angles at once, rather like the Blind men and an elephant story. The full breakfast is in essence several items from a large basket of possible items, including many different types of sausage. Which items you might find on your plate will be influenced by location, but also but what happens to be available (Is it a scottish breakfast if I eat it in Glasgow, but it has no haggis?). Part of the charm of the full breakfast is that it is felxible - sausage and bacon yes, but whatever else is lying around in the fridge the morning after the night before is also fair game (so long as it's fried). A lot of these things are variations on the same idea, which is hardly surprising considering the similar climate and materials at hand across the British Isles (potato farls, tattie scones, potato cakes, or haggis, hog's pudding or white pudding). They are different in the sense that they might have some local personality, but lets face it, they are pretty much the same sort of thing. This is difficult to put into an article, as people feel very passionately about this sort of thing, and start to make it political. Personally, I think it would be better to scrap the regional variations sections, and have one section only, with a sort of venn diagram type of thing showing the common and different components of the different variants. I think this would quite neatly show both the differences, but crucially how similar each tasty variation is in terms of components. Mammal4 (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

With regards to your 'venn diagram' idea, I think it's a good one - however I seem to recall that the article had something quite similar to that a while ago, and it was subject to the inevitable 'list creep/spread' thing that's endemic to that sort of thing on wiki. And yes, Clonakilty black and white pudding is some tasty, tasty stuff :) Kaini (talk) 20:33, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Cool - well when you discuss it with the food and drink lot, maybe mention it? I've had a fiddle with some of the citations as I had a spare minute - some of them are pretty crappy. Don't have time to go through them all now, but it might not be a bad idea for someone to check they are actually supporting what they say they are. Mammal4 (talk) 20:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

sorted out the dodgy refs and some WP:MOS stuff. Kaini (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Since this seems to have cropped back up... There is no reason for a "Full Cornish" to be an addition alongside England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Regardless of how poor the references were (food blogs, random local news articles, hotel menu PDFs...), Cornwall is merely a county of England; if we were to add all the counties offering a "Full Breakfast", we'd need to have a "Full Yorkshire", "Full Devon(shire)", a "Full Dorset", and tens of others — every county in England has their own local variation named this way. There is nothing special about Cornwall, and details about various breakfasts should go into Cornish cuisine, not here. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 03:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

There's no need to be offensive. Cornwall may be administered as a county of England, but the Cornish people are a recognised national minority. There is precedent on Wikipedia in describing the Cornish people and their related culture as distinct. If enough reliable sources can be found indicating that a Cornish breakfast is distinct from an English breakfast, there is no reason not to include it in this article. Lader Gwiader (talk) 05:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't consider it offensive to point out that Cornwall holds no special status; it's a county like any other, although I understand that it can be a sensitive topic. I would likely agree with including it in the article if there were sufficient references (which in my estimation there are not) to suggest there's a distinct "Cornish breakfast", however there is zero reason to place it alongside the countries of the UK (England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland) and Republic of Ireland — again, Cornwall is but a county of England. As I said, we'd essentially be rattling off a list of every county in England at that stage. It's not appropriate to afford a single county such precedence over others. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 19:00, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Cornwall uniquely adds hogs pudding which deserves a mention. As to your claim that we'd then have to list every other English county, it would only be necessary if they had unique items differing from the "standard" full English. Are there any other counties which fit this criteria?

In any case, there's obviously a lot of duplication of information in the article as it stands. I'd suggest a rewrite which moves all the common full breakfast ingredients (eggs, bacon, sausages etc) under the "Great Britain and Ireland" subheading, then have a shortened description for the regions which only list the differences (cockles and laverbread in Wales etc.) Barry Wom (talk) 12:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Couldn't a simple solution be to have a short paragraph noting some of the regional variants? It makes the topic more interesting, it shows that there's regional variation which ties to the culinary AND economic/industrial history of the region. Cornish can be under the main English section with the note that it includes Hog's pudding and cornish potato cakes? There are eastern Scottish regions with red pudding, the aformentioned Yorkshire and other variants from regions with still strong uniqueness. Or even just a section explaining the variants. It's more than just the food, really, it's culture and history. Just my two cents. Forceten (talk) 14:11, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, or just a list section curtly giving the variations on the standard FE, somewhat in the manner of a American diner waitress, and insisting on good refs. And a hidden note saying not add more without discussion here. Johnbod (talk) 14:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Bubble and squeak

I can't understand why this keeps being removed from here, even though there are ample sources online clearly showing it to be included as part of a Full (English, at least) breakfast, never mind the fact that the Wikipedia page for bubble and squeak itself clearly depicts and describing it as accompanying a Full breakfast --Theudariks (talk) 04:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Short description

@RiverCityRelay: "Traditional" is not a meaningful term. The article says it became widely popular only after WWII, and uses scare quotes around the term precisely because of this. The article already uses the term "substantial" in the lead sentence, which obviously does not mean "tasty" nor "made of substances", but rather "ample and nourishing... large and heavy". That is in fact the very first definition (A.I.1) in the OED. --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Those are great points for my side, not yours. Eighty years easily establishes a tradition, and the definition you're citing exactly makes my point about this being a relative assessment that's not appropriate for a shortdesc addressed to a global audience that eats breakfasts of all sizes. Thanks. RiverCityRelay (talk) 21:07, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

The word "substantial" is what's used in the lead sentence in the article, so it should be good enough for the SD. "Traditional" is only mentioned four paragraphs down in the article, and with scare quotes, for good reason. In any case, I'm not sure how "substantial" is relative and "traditional" is not. I did read your edit summaries, and the condescending "please, it helps" is offensive. --Macrakis (talk) 23:25, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Macrakis. "Substantial" clearly refers to the size of the meal and is more suitable than "traditional" in the short description. Barry Wom (talk) 13:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bacon and eggs (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

bloat

I've trimmed this hard for bloat and original research, reorganized a bit, requests citations for some things. I removed the long uncited list of foods because those can go into prose if they have support. Valereee (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Health issues of full breakfast

This article lacks a section about the health issues of full breakfast. Is it a healthy or hazardous meal? AnnaBruta (talk) 13:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Regional variations

I have revived the text on regional variations which was trimmed in February/March 2023, seemingly without discussion and for unstated reasons (apologies if I have missed something). The reduced text was also misleading and incorrect (e.g. reducing much of the Ireland text to "Breakfast rolls" and introducing an Ulster subsection separate to Ireland).

In my opinion, the regional variations section needs additions rather than "trimming", the North American section should be expanded and I'm sure that further subsections for a number of commonwealth nations apposite. Finally, I am unsure how to deal with England in this section, I would think that variations within the English regions would be a better approach (I know that West Midlands breakfasts are considered their own thing) but this is not my area so I'll leave it to contributors with a better understanding of the variations within England. Cymrogogoch (talk) 11:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The point of trimming was to reduce the repetition, i.e. to initially list the common elements and only point out the differences from these in the regional sections. We don't need to list eggs, bacon, sausage and toast, for instance, in every regional variation. Barry Wom (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2023 (UTC)