Talk:Fred Dibnah/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

Quotes: After his death his wife said something along the lines of:

"Fred always said that 'All that is good in the world is either, heavy, dangerous or dirty'. I think he included me in that."

more encyclopaedic

Page needs rewriting in a more encyclopaedic manner god bless yer mate kevin liverpool

I agree. The second paragraph in the biography section is too informal and far from neutral. RicD o d 17:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Bolton, Lancashire

I don't think the "(now in Greater Manchester)" is necessary. I would have thought that Fred Dibnah would have been one of the last people to recognise Bolton as part of Greater Manchester. It would be always be Bolton, Lancashire to him. Bolton will always be part of the historic county of Lancashire so this is not an incorrect statement. Quoting the modern administrative area is no more important that giving the postcode area. --jmb 22:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverted. Totally inappropriate. Even now Bolton is hardly ever referred to as being in GM. Lancsalot 07:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, there seems to be some people going around adding references to GM all over the place. Not sure if it a propaganda exercise by some supporters of GM (are there any supporters?) or just some do-gooders. It was bad enough putting Samuel Crompton as being from GM but I think Fred Dibnah would turn in his grave at the suggestion! --jmb 07:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware it had any supporters until I came on here! Lancsalot 08:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

While it may not be popular, and I happen to agree with you on Fred's opinion, Bolton is now part of Greater Manchester. Someone can be stated to have been born there when it was Lancashire, but it needs to be made clear in the same way as someone from Tyne & Wear could have been born in County Durham or Northumberland (also Humberside v-a-v East Yorkshire or Lincolnshire). To put that it's now in GM is, in my opinion, a fair compromise. Remember, this is an encyclopedia, not a nostalgia site. --lawsonrob

This is rubbish, and who mentioned any lord lieutenancy??? Bolton is in Greater Manchester and has been since 1974. Refer to the Lancashire County Council's own map if you don't believe me Council map page. Also, metropolitan boroughs do not exist within adminstrative counties.

Better map (approved by the Queen) here. The boundaries of the county palatine have never been changed. Will revert tomorrow if no one else does. Lancsalot 19:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an old debate, which for better or worse, is resolved in the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places). After many, many, many, many debates, it was deemed that we should use the formulation stipulted there.... Bolton is in Greater Manchester - to assert otherwise goes against the conventions, and also against WP:V. I'm sure that William Wallace would turn in his grave if he knew that England was united with Scotland - but that does not mean it is not true!

It is quite fair in this instance to say that Bolton is now in Greater Manchester, so long as (being that this is a biographical article about someone born pre-1974) it is merely an afternote. Please be mindful of these guidelines. Hope that helps somewhat. Jhamez84 19:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks J, I'm happy with your amend to the main page, and it's good to get an insight from someone who knows the rules of Wikipedia. Let's see if other contributors to this page can be quite so grown up about it. --lawsonrob

Just to clarify however, I am not asserting that Fred was born in Greater Manchester - he clearly was not, and was born in Bolton, Lancs. However, an afternote (if not in the opening line, then in the main text) about Bolton now forming part of Greater Manchester is quite allowed as it is verifiable. Jhamez84 18:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems a reasonable compromise to have some sort of note like that. By the way, someone above mentioned William Wallace. I hope that by the same principle that "now part of the United Kingdom" is going to be added after Scotland :=}

I do wonder what the future is for GM. There seem to be very few functions left and there will be even less when the police force is reorganised. Probably the fire and ambulance will also be reorganised into larger units as seems inevitable. --jmb 20:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If you were to read the Scotland article, it does indeed say that it forms part of the UK. GM police are not expected to be revamped with the (possible) future Police organisations. Incidently, GM is used for more official fuctions than historic Lancashire. Jhamez84 20:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The Bolton article mentions GM and that's why we have internal links. We don't need to duplicate the info here. Re. the future of GM - the gov is expected to announce abolition of county councils this autumn. This is likely to be accompanied by a reorganisation of ceremonial counties with GM going the way of Humberside and Cleveland. At which point all the wiki-links to GM would have to be replaced by Lancashire/Cheshire as per current naming conventions. Lancsalot 20:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

When and if. You'd have to take that to the wider editting community and through the formal channels also, rather than decide to edit articles based on a solo agenda. In the meantime, just kindly edit within the guidelines. Jhamez84 21:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I find it rather sad that some people seem to get such pleasure from changing the place of birth of someone now deceased who was born in Bolton when there was no disputing that it was part of Lancashire, spent most of their life in Bolton whilst there was no disputing that it was still in Lanashire and would always have considered themself to be a Lancastrian. It is difficult to understand why they are so persistent. --jmb 19:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

They're persistent because the current name of the area is the correct one under Wiki rules and they feel as strongly about that as you plainly do about the other side of the debate. You have played, quite fairly, as active a role in this debate as anyone else on either side. Regardless of that, however, it's been settled in its current form for over two months now, shouldn't we just let it lie? --lawsonrob 21:56, 7 September 2006

The issue about Fred Dibnah's birth place area hasn't been properly discussed. According to Wiki’s Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) rule it’s only the current name place area is allowed. Yet there are many Wiki articles where the area of the time is used rather than the current area. It seems that on this particular article some contributors can’t understand the difference of things being in context of the time. If these contributors still insist with Wiki’s Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) rule, I will go along with it and will systematically to change every single Wikipedia article to the present place area rather than the one in context of the time, since that some contributors only prefer the present areas. Cayden (talk) 19:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

That is your personal interpretation. This entry was placed in its current form after a long and detailed debate as you see above. You have admitted yourself that this is a grey area, so I suggest that you leave well alone. If you really have time enough on your hands to change every entry as you say, I'm sure it could be better spent working on something meaningful for Wikipedia, but please be my guest. --lawsonrob 21:04, 22 April 2007

lawsonrob you have your own POV, I've got mine. Others contributors are either for or against your POV. Why are you so against with this particular article? Other articles have Bolton, Lancashire, England. There hasn't been problem there. This issue hasn't been settled. Cayden (talk) 20:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

There is still contention about Fred Dibnah's birth place area, which is whether Bolton, Lancashire, England (how it was at the time he was born) and simply Bolton, England. One contributor, lawsonrob, has taken on his/her decided that the issue has settled with the POV he/her wants. I disagree. The issue has not been settled. Cayden (talk) 21:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I quite agree, Bolton was in Lancashire for most of his life and I suspect that he considered himself a Lancastrian for the whole of his life. It gets silly when you are not allowed to use the name that was used for an area when someone was born there but I cannot be bothered editing the page as there are too many people with nothing better to do that than keep removing "Lancashire" from anywhere that is at the moment in Great Manchester. --jmb 21:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

If it's fine to use Bolton, Lancashire for other articles, what is wrong with for this article? I made so that if someone tries to click on Lancashire they sent to the Bolton article. I even added the hidden message "in 1938 Bolton was then still part of Lancashire, its now part of Greater Manchester". Yet you refuse to allow it. This isn't settled, I intend to Revert the article, as you keep doing. Cayden (talk) 21:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Engineer or Back Street Mechanic

"Engineer" has been added to his description. I seem to remember from the TV programme on Tuesday that he proudly used the title "back-street mechanic"? Wouldn't this be more apt? --jmb 09:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Why not add that into the quotes section? User:lawsonrob

He did not appear to have an engineering qualification, therefore he cannot be described as an Engineer. Follow the "Engineer" hyperlink if you need clarification as to what an Engineer is. 193.130.64.132 11:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)Mark S

I don't think "engineer" carries the same protection as in some other countries as is said on the Wiki page and he was a British person living in the UK so overseas usage is irrelevant. "Chartered Engineer" probably is protected but I hardly think he would call himself one. People will ask for an "engineer" to come and fix something, it is unlikely that they expect the engineer will have a degree.

He appeared to like the term "back-street mechanic" anyway. --jmb 15:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you need to have a formal qualification or be a timeserved apprentice in engineering to refer yourself as an engineer. That would rule out almost all of the great engineering innovaters of the 18th and 19th centuries.86.0.203.120 (talk) 20:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

While some people in the UK do use the word engineer when they mean technician, eg for the guy who fixes the telly, this is merely a display of ignorance on their part. The use of the term engineer in this way is incorrect and symptomatic of a lack of regard for professional engineering in the UK. Fred Dibnah had a great respect for engineering and engineers and I'm sure he never refered to himself as an engineer.79.68.11.196 (talk) 23:44, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Poll options on Fred Dibnah's birthplace

There is contention whether or not to use an administrative county for Bolton in the main article.
I suggest four options.

Support Option A – born in Bolton, England. In this option doesn’t mention any county.

Support Option B – born in Bolton, Greater Manchester, England. In this option shows the present county, not at the time he was born.

Support Option C - born in Bolton, Lancashire, England. In this option shows the county at the time he was born, but keeps Bolton and Lancashire as separate Wiki interlinks.

Support Option D - born in Bolton, Lancashire, England. In this option is similar to Option C, but puts Bolton and Lancashire together in the same Wiki interlink.

The votes:

Support Option D Cayden (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C with Option D as second choice. --jmb 23:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C. It was in Lancashire when he was born, and any changes to local government since are irrelevant. — Wereon 00:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C Fred was a Lancastrian born and bred. -- Gillean666 01:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C Fred was born in Lancashire NOT Greater Manchester. I think he would have had some choice words to say on the matter EdJogg 01:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

– alternatively, 'Option A' followed by a phrase along the lines of "...he was Lancashire-born and bred...", which indicates the significance of Lancashire here, without causing arguments about Bolton. -- EdJogg 11:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C—I'm usually in favor or more information/links, not fewer. DocWatson42 03:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option A - least confusing (the change happened during his lifetime so both could be true) and gives information that was correct at his birth and is still now. MRSC • Talk 06:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C It's an indisputable fact that he was born in Bolton, which was in Lancashire at the time... no government boundary changing will change that. Besides this I know very few people who profess to being from 'Greater Manchester', for instance, I consider myself Lancastrian.DShamen 10:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C. He wasn't born in Greater Manchester. He was very much from Lancashire, and that should be mentioned. Just because it's in Greater Manchester now is no reason to support historical revisionism and imply that Bolton was never in Lancashire. There's too much of this going on. -- Necrothesp 10:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C If the Lancashire link is followed, the nomenclature and identity issues about the location are appropriately addressed there. — Armeria 10:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C/D on the grounds that this is where he was born - Census returns would also take this stance. Jhamez84 12:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option C for reasons given by others. the wub "?!" 18:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Option A The issue has been settled for nine months in a quite acceptable way and should be left alone. I think anyone who can look at the section above and state that this issue has not been discussed properly should read here. -- lawsonrob 23:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Votes so far: A = 2. B = 0. C = 9. D = 1. C/D = 1.

It's a week since starting this poll and Option C is the clear leader. If the consensus remains as clear tomorrow evening (BST time) I suggest closing the vote. Cayden (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The vote is closed. Option C is the clear favourite choice. Cayden (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Does this yawn-inpsiring charade have any bearing under Wiki rules? -- lawsonrob 14:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Shows the limits of democracy. The majority can be wrong! Anyone looking at this would think that Bolton is in Lancashire - which it is not, no more than Minsk is in the Soviet Union, Wroclaw is in Germany or India is in the British Empire.

Exile 16:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the Royal Mail, there is STILL no such place as Greater Manchester, it never existed for the post office even when there was a GM council. So Lancs can still stand.

Steveastrouk (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Family origin?

Where did his family surname Dibnah come from? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Just checked for the name Dibnah on the National Trust family names site. The East Riding of Yorkshire would appear to be a "hot-spot" for this name (both in 1881 and 1998). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.233.4 (talk) 18:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

House sold

It was on Granada news today, apparently his house has sold by private agreement, and under a confidentiality agreement. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The people who have bought his house are planning tours, selling tickets on eBay: http://www.freddibnahtours.co.uk ChuckMcB (talk) 20:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

House Purchase Details

The price paid is in the public domain and can be found on: http://www.houseprices.co.uk/

His address was 121 Radcliffe Road, Bolton BL2 1NU.

For those who cannot be bothered to look, it was sold for £185,000 on October 6th

Velpremus (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is it relevant? --jmb (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

"Why is it relevant?"

Because if you live local - a BIG deal was made of the buyer witholding the price paid.

Velpremus (talk) 09:13, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Lancs or GM

The common solution to this problem lately seems to be wording such as "Bolton, formerly in the Historic county of Lancashire". Can I suggest changing to this wording? He was certainly born in Lancashire, but from 1974 he lived in Greater Manchester. Parrot of Doom 09:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Quote from Alison

The quote form Alison under "Steam" says "We've done without it for so many years to get it built up. I couldn't bear to part with it. There's too much of us in it." That doesn't seem to make sense - shouldn't it be "we've done without for so many years"? Richerman (talk) 00:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Done Parrot of Doom 17:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Additional 'references'

The following links were removed as failing WP:EL. Can't argue with this, although the first will certainly be eligible for inclusion once the planning permission is granted. Links copied here for easier reference by interested editors:

Fred Dibnah Heritage Centre – a planned tourist attraction at Fred's Bolton home
Sheila Dibnah's Website – Fred's third wife, and public speaker

(Sheila's page fails as, at present, it is little more than a series of adverts for her talks about Fred. However, it is directly related to the subject of this article (by marriage!).) EdJogg (talk) 12:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Main Picture

Hi,

I was thinking could we get a picture for above the info box. We have about 4-5 pictures on the page so why can't we swap one of them around for the main picture. It would look much better. Anybody that can help please do.

Thanks, pbl1998--Pbl1998 (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I moved the "statue" in. It seems that there was a picture in the infobox at one time, since there is an "Alt" description of what was there. Pyrotec (talk) 21:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Lancs or GM (part 2)

Government Statement 1974:

“The new county boundaries are for administrative areas and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.250.61 (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

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