Talk:Francis Douglas, Viscount Drumlanrig

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rosebery affair?[edit]

"I am not an expert in these matter" (sic)

Agreed. A classic case of someone who reads one article and then decides to amend Wikipedia in the light of it.

The argument of Morris that the real cause of Queensberry's enmity towards Rosebery was that he secured for Francis a seat in the House of Lords, is only half correct. There are far too many primary source documents showing that Queensberry's anger was also spiked by the fact he believed (whether true or not) that Rosebery was part of a cabal of homosexuals who had corrupted his sons. The genesis of this was Queensberry's loathing of Francis's grandfather (and godfather) Alfred Montgomery. Extremely cosmopolitan, well-connected and homosexual, Montgomery was an icon for both Francis and Alfred, although Francis was his favourite godson. The footnoted reference "Snob queers like Rosebery" shows the strength of anger on this point. It's an important supporting reference given the background, and the removal of it is evidence of a personal bias.

Carson's Freudian slip of dropping Rosebery's name in the courtroom is indicative of the background of gossip with regard to the PM, which is also noted in so very many primary sources e.g. Esher Papers, Hyde archives, George Ives diaries, etc. However, as to whether the government was determined to crack down on Wilde to suppress rumors of homosexuality in the Liberal government, the jury is out. There is been an absolute ocean of academic speculation on this issue in recent years, of which Morris's contribution represents but a drop.

Unlike the current revert, the previous entry addressed these moot points in a succinct and more importantly, balanced manner, clearly stating: "surviving evidence to support these claims is inconclusive." This entry has therefore been restored.


I intend to revert the recent edits by 144.132.110.194 in the next couple of days unless someone provides refutation of the arguments contained in the article by Morris which is listed as a reference, see [1]. Morris provides evidence that: a. Queenberry's quarrell with his oldest son was about his seat in the Lords, b. that Queensberry was widely regarded in circles of power as a crank and therefore would have had no influence on government decisions, c. that Queensberry never campaigned for the criminal prosecution of Wilde and in fact gave him a note suggesting that the leave the country to avoid conviction as long as he didn't take his son Alfred Douglas with him. I am not an expert in these matter (and, frankly, they are of very limited historical relevance), but the supposed affair of Francis Douglas with Rosebery seems to me to be simply a case of wanting to make the story behind Wilde's trial more dramatic. The rumor should be mentioned in Wikipedia, but we should also make some effort to get the facts right. -- Eb.hoop 04:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you'd want to do that revert, or why you consider Morris, which is only one of several sources, definitive over the others.
Queensbury was, simply put, an asshole. He hated his first son, Drumlanrig, because he became a Lord, and accused him, founded or unfounded, of being homosexual; he hated his second son Harwick, for marrying a clergyman's daughter; and he alienated his third son, Bosie, for reasons well-known. One suspects that no child of his could possibly have pleased him, and one gathers that no child of his escaped the dire effects of his parenting.
Queensberry was obsessed with homosexuals and saw them under every bed. He harbored suspisions that his father-in-law Alfred Montgomery was "involved in a homosexual intrigue". Typically paranoid, he contended that his former wife conspired with her father to insult him by seeing that his son became a lord (what Queensberry called "the Rosebery-Gladstone-Royal insult"). His second marriage was annulled on the grounds of non-consummation (due to "the genital malformation, impotency and frigidity of the husband.") The man had issues.

The rumors of Rosbery & Drumlanrig's affair were contemporary, not backward misreadings:

"[Drumlanrig], the heir to all the Marques of Queensberry's estates, had been found shot dead in a ditch with hhis own gun a his side. Lord Drumlanrig had been a guest at a private shooting party in Somerset and his death seemed at the time 'stained with darker suggestion'. (fn 14). A few days later the coroner returned a verdict of accidental death, it having been argued to his satisfaction that Drumlanrig's gun had gone off accidentally, killing him instantly. But ther were, and are, good ground for believing that he took his own life on account of a suppressed scandal. He had held a ministerial post in Gladstone's government, thanks to the influence of Lord Rosebery, whose private secretary he had been. It was reliably rumoured that he was implicated in a homosexual affair with Lord Rosebery, always the Scarlet Marquess's chief bête noir until Oscar came upon the scene." P. 149-50.

Other refs[edit]

  • Amor, Anne Clark, Mrs Oscar Wilde: A Woman of Some Importance, Sidgwick & Jackson, London, 1983. [ISBN 028398967X]
  • Ellmann, Richard, Oscar Wilde, Vintage Books, New York, 1988. [ISBN 0394759842]
  • Holland, Merlin, The Real Trial of Oscar Wilde, Harper Collins, New York, 2003. [ISBN 0007156642]
  • Holland, Vyvyan, Son of Oscar Wilde, Carroll & Graf, Inc., New York, 1999. [ISBN 0786707011]
  • McCormack, Jerusha, Wilde the Irishman, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1998. [ISBN 0300072961]
  • Murray, Douglas, Bosie: A Biography of Lord Alfred Douglas, Hyperion, New York, 2000. [ISBN 0786866535] - !Outerlimits 08:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Death Circumstances[edit]

I have added details of his death cited to Complete Peerage, (Volume X, published 1945) which does not refer to suspected suicide or homicide, and records in footnote that an inquest recorded an accidental death verdict. Citations for suicide/homicide rumours - preferably close to the time of his death, would be welcome. Ironically his grandfather, the 8th Marquess of Queensberry, had died in a shooting accident also rumoured to be suicide in 1858. (Also mentioned in Complete Peerage.)Cloptonson (talk) 21:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Francis Douglas, Viscount Drumlanrig. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:36, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Francis_Douglas,_Viscount_Drumlanrig&oldid=1203236188"