Talk:Fourth wall/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Duck Amuck

Duck Amuck is currently listed in the television section. It shouldn't be there as it was a theatrical short film. However, the observations about it might be well placed if moved. Quadparty (talk) 03:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Ober (Waiter)

There is a reference to a Dutch movie Ober, which is very interesting in this case, does anyone more qualified have an opinion on this...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.229.230.201 (talk) 14:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Theater development

So, the fourth wall has nothing to do with how theater developed? Ran4 01:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Unlabelled sections

I was wondering, couldn't the elistment posters with uncle sam saying "I want you" be considered to be breaking the 4th wall, because he is adressing the audience. I think it is, but would like some oppinions.--KinKornKarn 06:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No. There is no narrative, no character, no set. It's just a static image, which never sets up a fourth wall in the first place. There are tens of thousands of images where the subject is staring directly out of the picture (just visit a portrait gallery and see!) but the concept of the fourth wall does not apply here. Coyote-37 09:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh alright, I was simply wondering because he seems to be adressing the audience, but since it is a static image it doesn't apply. --KinKornKarn 15:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you not mention Jean-Luc Godard? Did anyone do this in purposely in film before 'Pierrot le fou' (1965)? I suppose he did it to a lessor extent in the end of 'a bout souffle'(1960) and Truffaut did it similiarly at the end of 'les quatre cents coups', was breaking the fourth wall done before this?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.39.210 (talk) 22:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, don't you guys think Droopy the Dog breaks the fourth wall in almost every single episode of the cartoons he appears in? He usually says something along the lines of "Hello, all you happy people. You know what? I'm the hero." to the audience. Don't you think this should be mentioned in the article? 202.51.187.25 10:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Almost every cartoon character from that era does the same thing. It's not unusual. Only a very few explanitory examples are needed here. Read the comments below and see List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall for a bit of background to this discussion. Thanks thoughCoyote-37 14:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Erm, under Literature, there is the following: The Illuminatus trilogy ends with FUCKUP determining that the events are all part of a book.

Fairly sure this is vandalism, though I can't find the original version. Flatluigi

There really is a, well, character called FUCKUP in The Illuminatus! Trilogy. I wikified the entry to make this clearer. -- Tobias Bergemann 13:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the "fourth wall" originally a theatrical term? I always presumed that the "wall" in question is the invisible plane that exists at the front of the stage, which the viewer is looking through. The fact that it can be extended to literature and film and other arts doesn't necessarily exclude this, of course. soulpatch

Yeah, I think you're right. I'll add your sentence right now. Brecht called it alienation. But it's too useful not to apply it outside the stage. Ortolan88

Ooh, I love Duck Amuck. And Daffy in general. :-) -- Zoe

The Bob and George comic is famous because of the fourth wall brakeing,go read it someday.--68.53.21.41

I did go and read a bit of it. An elaborate in-joke on first impression. Why not write an article about it for Wikipedia, explaining the fourth wall stuff and anything else good about it and then link to that? Just a link to a web page is kind of disappointing. Ortolan88

Good idea!! But it may take awile.--68.53.21.41

Woody Allen breaks the fourth wall a number of times in one of his early films with his wife... anybody remember which? --DennisDaniels 04:00, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Annie Hall is the one that springs to mind. --Paul A 08:18, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another example (which really messes with the whole concept) is Last Action Hero starring Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The ending gunfight in Blazing Saddles was a great scene that broke the fourth wall. Bryang 08:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "break the fourth wall" by referring to itself many times? -- Paddu 20:07, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The novel doesn't refer to itself, it refers to the guide book that it is about. So it's not really breaking the wall. The Singing Badger 14:01, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Are there many such examples of "NOT breaking the fourth wall" though looking confusingly similar? If such a thing is common, I think we should mention in the article an example of "NOT breaking the fourth wall". -- Paddu 17:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did Sledge Hammer! do it? lysdexia 20:36, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not exactly, though one episode did feature a preliminary voice-over to retcon the fact that basically everyone had been killed by a nuclear explosion in the previous season. This was patently silly, but arguably not part of the show as such. Of course Sledge was a parody, so police show stereotypes would be more-or-less mentioned explicitly, but I don't think it ever got so bad as to acknowledge the fact that the show was just a show. That's just based on memory, though. Maybe some "Hammerites" (I coined the term, but I wouldn't be surprised if it already exists) can sift through their tape collections. :-) JRM 16:54, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Breakfast Of Champions break the fourth wall a lot?--Eel 00:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I was planning on adding a link to The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (Abridged), but I agree that there are too many examples already. This is such a good example of breaking the fourth wall that I think it should be added, but the article in general probably needs to be trimmed down first. Cswrye 06:23, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Enough with monologues

Over half these examples refer to monologues or narration. Those are only a minor break of the fourth wall, and they are not worth as much mention as they receive on this page.

In general, there are way too many examples on the page.

I agree: 2 or 3 well-chosen examples would be more illustrative. In any case, aren't many of these meta-references rather than strictly "breaking the fourth wall"? RMoloney 00:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Somebody should clean this page up.

Into The Woods

Shouldn't somebody add how the narrator is eaten by the gaint in "Into the Woods".

Other significant breaks

How about Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five in which the author himself is a minor character, and Vonnegut specifically notes that that character is the author, or Steve Gerber's Issue of Man Thing in which he is a character.

Major page cleanup and suggested policies

Okay, I decided to be bold and clean up this article. There were far too many examples on this page, and many of them were not even examples of breaking the fourth wall. Some of them even said that they were not real examples of breaking the fourth wall, which makes me wonder why they were added in the first place. Keep in mind that breaking the fourth wall is not necessarily the same as breaking character, meta-reference, metafiction, or self-reference. Be sure that an example doesn't fall into one of the above categories before adding it.

I removed most of the examples and fixed some of the formatting on others. You may think that I hacked too much, but keep in mind that the page was already double the suggested size of a Wikipedia article. If you don't like what I did, I would recommend re-adding the examples that you like instead of reverting. This is not a listing page, so it's not necessary to try to list every single instance of breaking the fourth wall. Only include an example if you think it will help in understanding what the fourth wall is. Here are some suggested policies I have on whether or not to include an example.

Make sure that it is not a meta-reference. Most of the examples on the list were actually meta-references, which do not always invovle breaking the fourth wall. Just because a book or movie makes a reference to the fact that it is book or movie does not mean that it is breaking the fourth wall. The best examples are those in which the audience is addressed directly.
Only include an example if it is significant. Virtually every TV show has broken the fourth wall at some point or another (especially during Christmas episodes when the characters wish the audience a happy holidays), but that doesn't mean that it belongs on the list. Likewise, a single off-hand comment does not warrant placement on the list. Only include it if breaking the fourth wall is something that is done consistently (such as Malcolm in the Middle), is a significant part of the media (such as Ferris Bueller's Day Off), or is a well-known example (such as Peter Pan).
There are some things that, while technically being a breach of the fourth wall, probably are too common to belong on the list. An good example in interactive media is tutorials. Characters may break the fourth wall to explain how to play the game, but this is necessary and ordinary, and it's not a direct part of the story itself. Commercials (and references to commercials) fall into this category as well.
Monologues and narration may break the fourth wall, but I would be reluctant to include them on this list. Usually, I only think of something as breaking the fourth wall if it is done by characters in the story within the context of the story, not if it is done as an addendum.

Of course, I'm not a rule-maker, so there's nothing stopping anyone from adding examples anyway. However, I would recommend thinking twice before adding another example. There are already plenty on this article, and we don't want it to get too big again. --Cswrye 20:55, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Good work Chad - I was itching to do what you did but didn't have the cojones to be bold enough. RMoloney 23:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good job, RMoloney, for the additional purges! Maybe we'll finally get this article to a reasonable size, although it seems that people keep adding back the examples we take out. --Cswrye 14:38, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Heartily agree with the comments above, this page is already spiraling out of control again. I think that Chad's rules above make perfect sense- everyone think twice before adding more unnecessary examples of your pet favourite show/movie! I'm going to take an axe to the fat on this page when I get the chance, unless someone wants to jump in ahead of me. . . Coyote-37 15:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Clarissa Explains It All vs. Doug

"On the early 1990s Nickelodeon show Clarissa Explains It All, the fourth wall was broken very frequently, with the main character Clarissa frequently speaking to the audience in segments about her current situation in the plot."

To me, those segments looked more like the "Dear Journal" segments from Doug, another Nick show, than an actual fourth wall breach. If we include Clarissa, we have to include Doug. --Damian Yerrick 01:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with either show, and I based my deletions just on the information that was given. Remember that this page is not an exhaustive list of every breach of the fourth wall that's ever happened, so we don't have to include anything. If you think that Doug is a good example, go ahead and re-add it. Don't add it just because it's similar to Clarissa, because if we try to list every incident that the fourth wall was broken, we'll end up in the same situation that we were in before. --Cswrye 05:06, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to include Doug at all. I was arguing the contrapositive: if Doug doesn't qualify then neither does Clarissa. I made the comment because I see directly addressing the audience in the limited manner seen in Clarissa (almost always from the same room, almost always alone) really isn't much different from directly addressing a camcorder containing a tape labeled "Journal". On this view, I'd argue for more deletions. --Damian Yerrick 04:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood. I agree that there are still too many examples. I wouldn't be opposed to anyone deleting a few more if they didn't think that they belonged. I've made enough deletions that I probably won't take out any more unless the page gets out of hand again. --Cswrye 07:04, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Clarissa Explains It All did break the fourth wall, but it did so so freiquently that one might argue that her monologue was more akin to her speaking to herself than to the viewing audience. Still, I'd say it did breakl the fourth wall.

Doug definitely did not break the fourth wall. There was no pretense that he was acknowledging the audience. He was writing to himself. The fourth wall was still present.

Allixpeeke 23:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Having watched both shows, I believe that Clarissa DID and Doug DID NOT break the fourth wall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.218.164 (talk) 20:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning up video games examples

Just deleted the second Metal Gear reference, to in game tutorials. Video game 4th wall violations are fairly tenuous I feel, because the audience (the player) is NEVER passive. If you like, all games break the fourth wall. Some examples are still valid- the first Metal Gear example on this page is a true example of a 4th wall violation, as it makes you think outside the games parameters and into the real world. I cleaned up the in game character getting impatient section as well, removing examples, such as Res Evil & Earthworm Jim, where the avatar simply acts impatient, but doesn't break the 4th wall. The difference is that in Sonic, Sonic stares directly at the player, whereas Jill Valentine or Earthworm Jim do not (though Earthworm Jim's WERE hilarious) Coyote-37 1 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

Do we really need to list every video game example we can find? I read the entire video game section, and it felt like I was being force fed way more than I needed. The point of this section is not to be a reference to every example, but an illustration of what it looks like in video games; examples are a tool, not the point.

.K (70.240.15.244 21:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

I redit the video game part completly because it was more a list of exemple than actual explanation, its not perfect yet, but its way better than it was

About non-player control 4th wall breaking in video games and theatre

Should the fourth wall breaking be referenced as it is done in Snatcher (also by Kojima of Metal Gear fame) and the play Peter Pan (mentioned in the page but not on how exactly it does the feat). In Snatcher a character asks the player to take an action in the physical world - "turn the TV sound louder so you can hear the noises". In turn, this is broken again when a subsequent explosion causes Gillian Seed to say his ears are ringing, which is retorted with "that's because the TV volume was too loud". In similar fashion, the famous scene in Peter Pan has the actors adressing the audience not only in references but also in request to action: "clap if you believe in fairies". I believe there is better examples than Snatcher, but at least Peter Pan should probably be an example. -Trilkk, 2007-07-26

Don't want to add more examples but. . .

Also, two key examples that aren't up here spring to mind, but I won't add unless others agree. The She-Hulk comics were renowned for constantly breaking the 4th wall, as She-Hulk would heckle the artist to come up with something more exciting and the like. It was a key feature in the characters popularity, as it made the comic stand out from the others. Also, the moment at the end of Goodfellas when Ray Liotta addresses the audience comes as a shock as it is unprecedented in the film to that point. That one scene has certainly gained a lot of critical attention, so I'm not sure if it might be worth adding to the already crowded films section? Coyote-37 1 July 2005 14:29 (UTC)

How about putting them in, but taking out (at least) two you feel aren't as worthy? RMoloney 16:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice job on the latest edit RMoloney. I've decided against the Goodfellas reference, the last thing this page needs is more examples. I'm going to trim this even further if I find the time. Hopefully anyone adding to this page will read the discussion first!Coyote-37 10:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

There's a Disney show named "American Dragon: Jake Long" which, at the end of most episodes, the fourth wall is frequently broken- Fu Dog addresses the audience by saying things related to the episode, once Jake came on and asked "Who are you talking to?" and another time Spud came on and kept saying "Spleunking," and Fu Dog accused him of using the time to say pointless things. Similar things happen at the end of "The Replacements" episodes.65.223.58.226 23:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Burns and Allen

Not sure if this would fit, but in the Burns and Allen sitcom of.. oh about the '50s, Gracie would sometimes start plotting to surprise or fool George. If he thought there was some skullduggery afoot, he would go upstairs to his den, turn on the T.V., and tune into the Burns and Allan show, so he could see what was going on. Bunthorne 22:49, July 21, 2005

See the previous section. The number of examples are actively being reduced. If you add one, you'll have to delete two others. Examples from Moonlighting where they actually go 'through' the fourth wall and the cameras and crew are seen have been deleted multiple times. I don't think they'll bother to leave an example where the television show is merely on the television. Val42 05:10, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Burns and Allen did much more than just watch his show on TV. The one episode I saw, very old, the living room set was built like a cutaway of a house, and George started the show standing outside talking to the audience. (The Gracie came calling for him, and while she went outside through the door, George walked in to the living room via the wall surprising her.) And a few times George would talk to the audience explaining and commenting on off-screen action. 68.36.163.22 14:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Breaking the fourth wall definition is too specific.

Breaking the fourth wall doesnt exclusively refer to acknowledging that it is a production of some sort (whether video game, movie, comic etc) but it is more about taking a piece of art and allowing the audience to experience it in an extra dimentional way (ie a fourth dimentional way). Simply addressing the audience like a Monologue ARE examples of breaking the fourth wall but very minor ones, additionally films like Last Action Hero and games like Viewtiful Joe where the character begin knowing they are in a film or game (respectively) are only barely breaking the Fourth Wall because the entire premise of the film/game is about them being inside a film or a game, fourth wall breaking is unexpected and by definition interupts the regular consumption of the art.

The way it is defined at the moment it doesnt allow for the (IMO) more clever examples such as Memento where the structure of the film (ie played backwards) causes the audience to experience anterograde amnesia like the protagonist has and the 1885 play The Mikado where in Act II the song As some day it may happen is sung by the character Ko-Ko about all the problems he has with society but is re written for each performance satirising current events (when I last saw it they poked fun at the Australian Prime minister and mobile phone users etc). They both arent actively addressing the medium but are certainly breaking the fourth wall allowing the audience to experience the art at a higher level. - UnlimitedAccess 19:39, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to vote for the literal definition as given. I've a few reasons. Firstly, and most importantly, a quick flick through google confirms that this is the way the term is generally understood. Secondly, I don't think the Memento example could be considered any kind of fourth wall break. The structure of the film is what you are referring to here, and is controlled by the director. The director/author is always understood to be telling a story with the audience in mind, and is allowed to manipulate the telling of that story anyway he/she wants. It is the characters of that story who are classically meant to be oblivious to the audience.

Finally, you haven't given a concrete alternative definition, and I seriously doubt that one could be crafted. Allowing one to experience it at a higher level is such a loose concept that it could conceivably be applied to any work of art - off the top of my head, Seinfeld's use of running jokes allows some of its audience to experience it at a higher level, Ian McEwan's Atonement, by describing the same event from the points of view of several characters, allows us to appreciate the character relationships at a higher level. It is the nature of art to find new and unexpected ways of expressing its meaning; surely we can't classify all such innovations as fourth wall breaks? RMoloney 21:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I will settle for the definition at [1] which indeed does exclusively use the term when reffering to an aside (despite not taking into considerations interactive media etc). - UnlimitedAccess 21:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Some notes on the latest (August 05) edit

I've just gone through the whole page and made some pretty drastic changes. I wanted to remove some of the less worthwhile examples, but also to add some content, so it was more than a brief definition and a list of examples of breaking the fourth wall (which is not what this page is about). I feel I should explain myself though;

Removed early examples (Shakespere and Greek plays) as they pre-date term itself and so do not really count. Remember plays did not often have what we would recognise as sets- so did not have a first, second or third wall either!
I removed lots of perfectly good examples, as the list doesn't have to be exhaustive. I also tried to make each section roughly the same size, for consistency. I think it reads better this way.
British English spelling. I know this is an issue for lots of people- but I really don't mind about it, honest! It happened by accident as I ran the whole text through a spell check and have my settings as Brit-English. I'm not pushing an agenda, and won't be offended if it changes back!
List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall Just a thought. . .Coyote-37 15:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I think such a list is a good idea. WP editors are completists by nature, and your attempts at maintaining a limited number of examples are doomed unless there's an alternate place for everybody's favorite fourth wall breakage. Wasted Time R 15:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

You're right, and the comments on your user page put what you say in perspective- I suspect you've had more experience of this than me! My current tactic with this page is to remove overtly bad examples but otherwise let the list grow at it's own rate. When it get's truely huge I'll move it here Coyote-37 10:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Cutting this page in half- opinions please!

This page is just horrible again, filled with stream of conciousness examples of obscure fourth wall violations. Wikipedians just hate to leave something out- but this page is poorer because of it. So I'm going to move the list in it's entirety to List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall in a week or so, unless users here object. Please do give your opinions here. Thanks everybody Coyote-37 09:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea. Though the "Fourth wall" would then most likely end up as a stub, unless some examples were kept for ilustration. Meanwhile, I'm seeing what I can do to clean the article as it is up a bit, maybe fusing some shows where the fourh-wall-breaking is similar into common bullets, to hopefully keep the article tighter..Zeppocity 10:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I've gone from mildly supporting this to fully so, especially taking in consideration the need people display in bulleting each one, disregarding instances where grouping them would at least give the examples given some consistency (see a recent edit on Tv and etc.). So I'm all up for keeping this in purely general terms ("instances include yadayada where yada yada (in series such as X and Y")), and breaking off the gradually growing actual list of instances of fourth-wall breaking into an article of its own. In a bit of a rush now; if I need to do it myself, I'll do so. Please, editors, some thoughts on the matter before it's actually done (or, potentially, scrapped). Cheers, Zeppocity 15:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

A grumpy aside- has anyone else noticed that people on this page use the word 'famous' to mean 'the one I've heard of'? Coyote-37 09:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The list is gone

After a week or so of no objections, I have moved the list to it's own page. Speak now if you object (or just revert, of course!), but I don't really see why there should be a list of fourth wall violations on this page at all- it's not what the page is about. Coyote-37 15:39, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Great job! You had the courage to do something that should have been done a long time ago. --Cswrye 00:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Water on Camera Lens

Is it a form of breaking the fourth wall when water gets on the camera lens, as happens in some action scenes? --129.44.179.249 10:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I guess, in a way, it is because it breaks the illusion of the action. But since it is a technical limitation rather than deliberate, I wouldn't consider that a breaking of the fourth wall. Val42 16:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it might be a fairly viable form of breaking the fourth wall, because even CG effects sometimes cause this, which is obviously intentional. However, it's not really a way of telling the audience "This isn't real", so perhaps not. -Caligari_87

You could then argue that anything that "gives away" that it's a movie could constitute breaking the fourth wall... such as the sun refracting in the lens, forming those little polygon-shaped thingies... or when someone is in foreground and someone in background, and the camera is refocused from one to the other. But in the normal usage of the term, breaking the fourth wall primarily refers to the actors acknowledging the existence of the audience. Wahkeenah 19:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Building the fourth wall

As sort of a counterpoint, I made up the "building a fourth wall" segment, because I think that's a valid idea as well, and I couldn't really find anything like it. -Caligari_87

Okay, it seems that this segment has been removed, citing "original research". I didn't know that this qualified as such, I was just trying to make an example. What do you think? I'm fine with the decision, I just want an opinion. Caligari 87 20:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

in reality shows

I was one Encyclopedia Dramatica recently and in their artilce for the Fourth Wall it said that in reality shows the term is used for interaction between cast and crew. Now we all know ED is a fake encyclopedia but that seems to make alot of sense. Should it be added? Johhny-turbo 19:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It is arguably a corollary to the primary concept of breaking the fourth wall as "acknowledging the existence of the audience". It is pretty much the same thing, because it is the players admitting that they are in a play, not "real life". However, in a "reality show", that doesn't really apply, because it's not a scripted play, it's more like a documentary. Documentaries are not a "false reality" like plays are (hopefully not, anyway) and it's perfectly acceptable for the subjects to acknowledge the existence of the camera, crew and unseen audience. Wahkeenah 19:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Removal of 'multiple fourth walls' section

The "Breaking multiple fourth walls" section?? Why was it gone and why were people adding excessive amounts of examples before it was gone? --Nerd42 19:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Nerd42, I've moved your comment to clarify the discussion, I hope you don't mind. I realise I was being somewhat harsh in my edits, so I've tried to add content and clarify why this section should be removed, rather than simply revert blindly. A story that refers to the fourth wall, but doesn't break it (like the Truman Show) is more properly referred to as a metafiction, for which we already have a page, so there's no need to discuss it at length on this page. Please read through that page and if you still think we need to deal with it on fourth wall, come back and discuss it on the talk page.

P.S. I liked the Dilbert trivia, and I thought it added something, although it did seem to be tempting editors who misunderstood the point, to list other irrelevant comic strip examples. Is that why it was removed? Coyote-37 10:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There's also a list called the List of fiction that builds the fourth wall which lists The Truman Show. Personally, I wouldn't object to a section between Breaking the fourth wall and See also entitled "Reinforcing the fourth wall." This new section could ever-so-briefly explain metafiction and refer the reader to the metafiction for a more-in-depth explanation. But, I don't think we need a large section in this article dedicated to this.

Allixpeeke 22:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Meta-reference

Should this perhaps be merged into meta-reference? Are the two close enough?

I don't mind them being separate. A meta-reference is the breaking of the fourth wall, while this article explains what this so-called "fourth wall" is.

Allixpeeke 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

final fantasy?

is it just me or is it weird (arbitrary) to have the final fantasy reference be the first thing in the article? Dummies102 23:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's weird and off putting. wasserperson 00:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Deadpool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool

Popeye "How Green is my Spinach"

This must be a very unique example of a reverse 4th wall break being part of the narrative. Bluto, having destroyed the world's spinach crop, is overpowering Popeye in a grocery store. A panicky announcer ask if anyone has a can of spinach in the house. A very worried boy in the audience remembers he does have a can and throws it up into the cartoon and Popeye catches it and eats it and promply thrashes Bluto.

Is that not just a Deus ex machina, or maybe both? Colossus 86 12:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

A strange fourth wall

Just as a suggestion, and Im really not sure HOW you would describe this, but has anyone else have any thoughts about this: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2077 Its interesting to say the least

He breaks the fourth wall in the first scene. The reason the other guy, and most, would not get it is because they're unfamiliar with what breaking the fourth wall means, and would not realize that the fourth wall had been broken from the very beginning, when the main character introduces his own comic strip.

Allixpeeke 22:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt referencing the obvious, just the litteral adherance to breaking a wall, yet directing it at the viewers from a point of view that we would understand

Video Game Image?

Is the image really neccessary? Is the image really appropriate for this article? JWGreen 05:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Do I detect a hint of video game phobia? The image gets the point of breaking the fourth wall across pretty clearly. Questioning it simply because it's from a video game is ridiculous. 65.95.162.22 11:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Sure, objecting to a video game image out of pure bias is, well, ridiculous.

2. On the other hand, dismissing JWGreen just like that is a little ludicrous

3. The image doesn't get the point across. The image is a trivial, genre-appropriate example of direct address.

4. The article is a fairly tight, clear piece on a highbrow aspect of theater/lit theory. This particular video game image clashes

with that.wasserperson 06:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

He's Right I Suggest either removing it or some more appropriate Picture. Nathen

I inserted a Liberty Meadows comic strip that also literally breaks the fourth wall. It's not high-brow, but it might be hard to get a high-brow image since breaking the fourth wall is typically used for comedic purposes. At least it has a bit more pizzaz than the video game screenshot - and humor doesn't hurt either. BayBoy 03:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Command and conquer

Are they breaking the fourth wall. Jamhaw 21:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

no, they don't talk to the player directly, but the character (off camera) the player is represent by. The character does'nt become aware of the fact there in a game

Canon puncturing

I created the original canon puncturing article, and I'm familiar with the community that first invented and proliferated the term. It is not used correctly here; I unfortunately was busy getting married at around the time the article on canon puncturing was apparently merged into this one.

Canon puncturing is not when a character identifies his context as fictional. Canon puncturing is when one character tells another, ”Yes, you're fictional, but I'm real. I know you're fictional because I saw you in this TV show or read about you in this book, but I know that I exist.”

Is there any way to appeal a merger decision? Kimpire 11:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The intro paragraph says that the origin of the term is unknown, but then the very first section is called Origin and meaning. Anthony Rupert 06:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Liberty Meadows comic

What does this strip have to do with breaking the fourth wall? The audience is never addressed in it. Anthony Rupert 10:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Breaking the fourth wall can be achieved by a number of methods, not only having a character addressing the audience. It is "when a character or other device makes the audience explicitly aware that they are viewing a work of fiction". The light saber in this excerpt not only manages to interact with the characters within the story (quite normal) but also affects the structure of the strip itself: the drawing itself is cut. BayBoy 16:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Theater vs. theatre

Someone recently changed all instances of theater to theatre. Since this term isn't specific to or (deomonstably) originated in a specific english-speaking country, we can't easily resolve which spelling to use. Is there some sort of template that will chose between two words depending on which country someone is viewing an article from? Val42 04:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It'd be great if there were, but I doubt it. A drama teacher of mine once told me theater is the term for the building were plays are performed and theatre is the general term for acting on stage or working as crew (such as "I work in theatre." aka "I am an actor or a stagehand."). Of course, that was my teacher and I doubt all people differentiate the two like that or even at all. JDCAce 06:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fourth Wall v. Soliloquy

Is there any difference? Either way, why isn't soliloquy mentioned in the Fourth Wall article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gautam3 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

I hope you don't really mean to say 'is there any difference'- they are entirely unrelated. If you mean, why isn't soliloquy mentioned in the 'Breaking the Fourth Wall' section, well addressing the audience is already mentioned. Soliloquys of Shakespeare's plays do not merit a mention because they predate the term- remember that theatre's did not have sets as we would understand them, so did not have a first, second or third wall either. Furthermore, we don't need more examples to clarify the term, so none should be added anyway. Coyote-37 11:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Children's Televison Shows

Shouldn't the fact that many children's shows intentionally remove the fourth wall to more deeply involve the child with the action on-screen be included in this article? Faranya 02:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

NoCoyote-37 11:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about that too. I think it should be added. 24.128.144.156

Coyote 37, i believe its a very good example, even if its not a theater example, you should'nt put it aside that way

24 hour party people

Someone should write in a note about the movie "24 hour party people" as it breaks the 4th wall on a regular basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.67.137.88 (talk) 09:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Voice-overs and first person narrations

When there's a character voice-over (or in the case of novels a first person narration) and it refers to "you", would that be considered breaking the fourth wall? An example from the Animorphs novels: "My name is Jake. I can't tell you my last name or where I live or the Controllers will get me".218.215.140.2 01:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I inserted a nod to the "Road to..." movies.

03:12, 7 May 2007 (hist) (diff) m Fourth wall ("Road..." movies to demonstrate how "Breaking the Fourth" was widely accepted)

Add example from Shakespeare

I know there's sentiment against too many examples, but given Shakespeare's key role in English theater, it seems to me that the review at the beginning of the "Breaking the fourth wall" section should mention Shakespeare. The first paragraph describes the history of the term, so perhaps a second paragraph could be added to introduce the history of the device. It could state, for example, that Shakespeare used it centuries before the term was coined.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_theatre_that_breaks_the_fourth_wall page includes specific examples from Shakespeare. 24.128.112.76 15:00, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The Office

Characters from "the office" are cited as an example addressing the camera directly. this is not a proper example of breaking the fourth wall. The whole thing is meant to be a spoof of a documentary being made at a fictional office. Of course you the audience know there is a camera there and people are meant to be speaking to it and playing up to it. Breaking the fourth wall is when the illusion of there NOT being a camera there is broken by a character suddenly engaging with the audience in an unexpected manner. This is a bad example and should be removed Harani66 01:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I think "The Office" should be listed, as an example explaining how mockumentary formats such as it, "This Is Spinal Tap", etc., do not break the fourth wall. 68.36.163.22 14:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"The Office" is not the only mockumentary that does this. "Trailer Park Boys", among others, does it as well. Perhaps a section addressing mockumentaries is the way to go on this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzcrandall (talk • contribs) 03:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Who removed all the links to the lists

There were loads of lists at the bottom linking to all the shows that broke the fourth wall. Who decided to remove them?Wild ste 10:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know but I NEED them back!! PNiddy Go! 0 23:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

ctrl-alt-del comic breaks the fourth wall

Ctrl-Alt-Del broke the fourth wall (quite literally) in their 1000th comic http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070720 , not sure if this should be worked into the article at all, but it's funny anyways.

Even more experimental is 1/0 which supports a "4th wall week" or some characters seeing a 4th wall while others don't. http://oneoverzero.comicgenesis.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.5.164 (talk) 08:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In Cinema, Video, and Documentary section

The "In Cinema, Video, and Documentary" section is really poorly written. It is just a collection of anecdotes about specific instances of breaking the fourth wall; compare this to the previous sections, which use examples to make a specific point about how the fourth wall is broken. The section needs a complete rewrite to be more in line with the other sections, or should be removed entirely. — Loadmaster 17:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. What happened to the seperate articles about breaking the fourth wall in film, television, etc? I feel those should be rewritten. Djskein79 05:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Battlestar Galacticas 4th Wall

The shaking camera is used to make the show look interactive, as if you were looking actualy at it from another ship, or a camera on a probe.OsirisV 11:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats not breaking the fourth wall. thats just creative camera angles.the juggreserection 16:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Conkers Bad Fur Day

This game shows a very good example of breaking the fourth wall. In the final cutscene, just as Alien is about to kill Conker, the game freezes, he gets out of his robot and talks to a programmer to get a sword and change the scene. He also talks to the player numerous times throuout the game. i really think this should be added. id rather a more experienced editor do it before i try to write it.the juggreserection 16:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Narration

Is it considered "breaking the 4th wall" if there is a narrator? That seems to make it a very wide-ranging definition; I would think that there ought to be a distinction between (e.g.) the narration on Deperate Housewives (which is just part of the storytelling) and the occasional real break on Boston Legal ("come on, it is a sweeps show"). I would think that the audience needs to be made aware that it is watching a show, rather than just hear monologue directed to some anonymous hearer. 199.71.183.2 18:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and there are a lot of "examples" listed that aren't really examples. This article still needs a lot of cleaning up, imo. Zeng8r 22:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Pull yourselves together

This page has become a shambles again. If you really feel the need to add more examples, please follow these steps first:

Step 1: spend one year aging
Step 2: if you still think more examples are needed, return to step one.

Coyote-37 (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha. And also, ha.65.223.58.226 (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I stumbled on this page through a disambiguation fix and am, frankly, horrified. I'm going to gut the article according to [WP:DTRIVIA|guidelines for dealing with trivia]]. I hope that editors previously active on this page aren't offended by this. We can always add pertinent examples back individually. --Gimme danger (talk) 01:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This keeps happening to this article. My examples from a show where they actually ran past the cameras with, "You can't leave. We've still got two more pages on this set," and two where the set was actually disassembled at the end of the season, but they kept getting deleted because these examples didn't break the fourth wall enough. After several rounds of this, I just gave up on this article. After that, a page was split off just to gather the cruft, but it still keeps getting added to this page despite there being very visible comments to editors to not add any more examples. I think that other editors have also given up on keeping it clean. I wish you good luck. — Val42 (talk) 06:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a no hoper now I think. This article is one of the main reasons I lost enthusiasm for editing Wikipedia Coyote-37 (talk) 11:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jacole5.jpg

Image:Jacole5.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Pirates of Silicon Valley

An example worth mentioning: nerd docudrama Pirates of Silicon Valley has some incredible use of fourth wall breaking. For example, when the movie begins, Steve Jobs (played by Noah Wyle) seems to address the audience about the movie they are about to see; but the camera moves to show that he's talking to Ridley Scott (J.G. Hertzler) during the production of the famous "1984" ad; or when Microsoft offers DOS to IBM, not only Steve Ballmer (John Di Maggio) breaks out of character, but the whole scene is put aside to let him comment on the importance of that event. -- Stormwatch (talk) 06:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Lack of a NPOV

There are certain spots in the article (particularly "Controversy) that violate the NPOV policies.JIMfoamy1 (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Most of the "Controversy section is to me complete jibberish, especially th last paragraph. --GeorgeShaw (talk) 23:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Article expansion

The section about its use in video games needs to be broadened to include all forms of media.JIMfoamy1 (talk) 00:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

History

Hey, at the very beginning of this article it says that the idea of the fourth wall has been around since before the Ancient Greeks. While this may seem to make sense, I would very much either like some sort of source for this, or that it be removed. As someone stated above, the idea of a "set" in the Ancient world was wholly different than our modern understanding; and, as our sources for Greek theater date back something like a few thousand years, a citation for an earlier source would be interesting. Otherwise, I say it gets chopped. Then again, who am I?--Fishopolis (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

1st deliberately inserted 4th wall "blooper"?

Merlin_(film), contains a great example of this, maybe the first? A CGI dragon manages to splash mud on the camera lens. This breaks the 4th wall by intrusively reminding the viewer that they are not actually in 4th century AD with the imaginary characters but in fact seeing the events in front of a modern camera. Yet it simultaneously attempts to compel to the viewer to believe that the imaginary dragon on the screen is 'real' enough to splash actual mud at an actual camera. All of this happens without any of the characters recognizing, reacting to, or acknowledging the 4th wall. Mel Brooks has characters that bump cameras and interact with film crew, but in these instances at least one of those characters know what they have done so, and the audience knows this was a staged goof and the characters and the audience know that the other knows what they know, and it isn't for enhancing suspension of disbelief or some specific subject thereof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zerothis (talk • contribs) 02:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say Last Action Hero parodies this to the extreme in both directions of the "Big Screen" where the movie character meets the "real" Arnold. User:bwildasi Sun May 25 11:43:29 UTC 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Video games

This section is way too big compared to the sections (theatre, literature, film). I guess it shows how the demographic of Wikipedia skews towards the video gaming demographic (young male, which I am part of). It definitely needs to be trimmed. Richiekim (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

agreed. video games assume player interaction from the start, so the 4th wall can hardly be considered to apply as it would in a theater context. A brief mention of easter eggs should suffice--the in-depth examples need to go. Flashinpon (talk) 11:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

As over 6 months have passed since the first concern was voiced, and no improvement in the section was made, I have removed it. It is unsourced original research, only minimally applicable to the concept of 4th wall, and certainly much too long compared to the rest of the article. I suspect it was someone's school essay... --ZimZalaBim ^talk 05:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

They should also refere in that part about the game Donkey Kong Country 2, where cranky kong rags about this game sequel being stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.27.185.251 (talk) 20:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Star Wars lens flares

I think that the lens flares in the Star wars movies for shot completely CGI should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.62.252 (talk) 01:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Major Problems

This article has major problems first with sourcing. Second with the fact that wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a an indiscriminate list of information. If something is notable for breaking the fourth wall - reliable sources will state so. The mere fact that a game, a film, a TV programme or a play does so is not enough for inclusion here. All material added to wikipedia must be sourced - it is up to the people who add it to prove that it is a noteworthy example - if you can't prove it don't add it. All unsourced, undue and original research will be removed--Cailil ^talk 20:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm giving the "In video-games" one week to be verified but on Saturday August 9th whatever remains unsourced in this article will be removed or replaced with verified information. The concept of the fourth wall is not an obscure subject adding sourced information should not be a problem--Cailil ^talk 20:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

8 days after the deadline and no improvement. I have commented out the "in video-games" section please read WP:PROVEIT - don't add unsourced information to wikipedia, and please only give material due weight regarding its significance to the broader subject (in this case the concept of the Fourth Wall)--Cailil ^talk 21:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fifth Wall vs. Crossover

I removed an example of the breaking the fifth wall involving Family Guy characters meeting American Dad characters. This is not an example of a fifth wall breach, but rather a Crossover. Perhaps something explaing the distinction should be added to the article? Let me know, and I will go ahead and do this. --Jeiki Rebirth (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Muppet movies

Are they mentioned or worth mentioning? I seem to recall almost every one of them did this or a variant of it. In the first one Kermit tells Fozzie they can't tell the band what happened or they'll "bore the audience" so he proceeds to give Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem a copy of the script. Perhaps unusually this proves to be a bit more than a throw-away joke as the band uses the script to find the gang when they're lost and help them out. In The Great Muppet Caper Kermit briefly stops to tell Miss Piggy she's overacting and another character tells Miss Piggy that she's describing her life to her because "it's plot exposition, it has to go somewhere." In The Muppets Take Manhattan Kermit mentions his belief "Gonzo was going to play the minister."--T. Anthony (talk) 11:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Real world

It seems to me that this article describes two very different types of fourth wall, and I think they should be grouped together more clearly. In one form, the wall is broken when the characters address the audience. In the other, the audience is never addressed at all, but the characters break out of the stage and into the real world (or an imaginary counterpart of the real world, but nevertheless beyond their stage). A great example of this is in this excerpt:

The movies produced by Mel Brooks often involve a significant breaking of the fourth wall, from a brawl that spreads into the rest of the movie studio in Blazing Saddles to various characters referencing the movie script in Robin Hood: Men In Tights after an unexpected plot twist (specifically, when Robin loses in the archery contest, he finds this strange, takes out a copy of the script and finds that he gets another shot; when Prince John and the Sheriff hear this they take out their own copies of the script and confirm Robin's assertion). Similarly, in the film Spaceballs, when the villains lose track of the protagonists, they obtain a copy of the videotape of the film they are in to discover the heroes' location.

Can we work on distinguishing these examples from the "addressing the audience" type of fourth wall?

Seinfeld

In the episode "The Race" at the end, when Jerry wins, he breaks the fourth wall when he turns to the camera and winks. Kind of like superman (running theme in that episode). Thought it might be notable!? Oh, and I think this discussion page needs an archive. I don't know how to do that, nor have the time to learn at the moment. Thanks :) 174.0.198.29 (talk) 12:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

No. Not noteworthy. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)