Talk:Flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande

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Untitled[edit]

The first version of this article is a translation from nl:Vlag van de Republiek van de Rio Grande (permanent link). NL-Ninane 19:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notable?[edit]

Is this article notable enough on its own? Or should we merge it with the Republic of the Rio Grande article? TuckerResearch (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Green bar on the original flag?[edit]

Apparently, the original flag, which is found within the Republic of the Rio Grande Museum in Laredo, has a green bottom bar instead of a black one, according to those of who have seen the flag --Wardie1993 (talk) 23:39, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What were the colors of the flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande?[edit]

What were the colors of the flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande? Was it: (a) black bottom bar and red vertical bar, as is often presented; (b) green bottom bar and red vertical bar, as is sometime surmised; or (c) blue vertical bar with three stripes, as a recent editor, citing a hard-to-find dissertation, avers? Let us collect some reliable sources for this flag here on the talk page, so we can figure out how to say things in the article. I will try to contribute as soon as I have some time. TuckerResearch (talk) 15:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What were the colors of the flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande? Was it: (a) black bottom bar and red vertical bar, as is often presented; (b) blue bottom bar and red vertical bar; (c) green bottom bar and red vertical bar, as is sometime surmised; or (d) blue vertical bar with three stripes, some more recently uncovered sources indicate. Let us collect some reliable sources for this flag here on the talk page, so we can figure out how to say things in the article. TuckerResearch (talk) 15:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Martianman64 - Do you have a copy of the dissertation thesis:"'Last drop of my blood': Col. Antonio Zapata: A life and times on México's Río Grande frontier, 1797–1840" you could e-mail me? TuckerResearch (talk) 15:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is all based on original research from a few primary sources, and we really shouldn't be presenting this as verified fact when it isn't. BilCat (talk) 19:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know theses aren't the best sources, but they're still acceptable (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Some types of sources). I too would like some more sources for the "blue vertical bar with three stripes flag", but they don't exist yet. When I get the chance, I will cite all the references for all the flags of this transitory Republic. TuckerResearch (talk) 13:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against including them at all, but I am against the rewriting of the article based on them as if it's settled fact, especially since it has been reported elsewhere by secondary sources. BilCat (talk) 15:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I think me and User:Martianman64 have concluded we should show all the variant flags with proper citations. So, these revisions and citations:
  • I think we definitely use the image we have as the proper, historical flag; we cite the AHDN (the image) and the Gallegos thesis as proof
  • Then we mention the standard red, white, and black flag, and all the standard citations for that
  • Then we reference that some think it was a red, white, and green flag (we can cite those works [Vigness?] and etc.)
  • Then we can say that the red, white, and black flag was probably a mistake from the 1930s, and find a citation for that
What does everyone think of that? TuckerResearch (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's the source for the red, white, and black flag probably being a mistake from the 1930s? We can't say that in Wikipedia's voice without attribution from a reliable published source. BilCat (talk) 17:39, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Director of the Republic of the Rio Grande Museum has made the claim that the red, white, and black flag was a mistake made by a local historian in the 1930s. I will contact the Museum for more details on this. Martianman64 (talk) 04:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have the rudiments of a citation for this at a vexillology website called crwflags: https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us_reprg.html. Has this ever been adjudicated as a reliable source for other flag articles on Wikipedia? I think it should count as a reliable source, it's fairly serious and semi-scholarly, but, it is a bit talkpagey. (I'm hoping I can find some better reliable sources.) TuckerResearch (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have contacted (March 23) the Museum of the Republic of the Rio Grande and the Webb County Heritage Foundation to see if they have any sources and citations for these flag variants. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:30, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Contacting them sounds good, and we go from there. BilCat (talk) 17:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As everyone can see below, I have found decent secondary sources for all the variants in the section below (including the three-striped one). TuckerResearch (talk) 14:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for colors of the flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande[edit]

What were the colors of the flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande? Was it: (a) black bottom bar and red vertical bar; (b) blue bottom bar and red vertical bar; (c) green bottom bar and red vertical bar; or (d) blue vertical bar with three stripes. Let us collect some reliable sources for these flags below here on the talk page. That way we can figure out how to present this information in the article. (I have split the sources out from the discussion in the section above).TuckerResearch (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(a) black bottom bar and red vertical bar[edit]

  • Herrera Ledesma, Pedro Alberto (2007). "La República del Río Grande (1838-1840)". In Isassi Cantú, César Humberto; Saldaña Villarreal, María Isabel (eds.). Reynosa, ciudad del futuro, de villa a metrópoli (in Spanish). Reynosa, Mexico: Grupo Editorial Milenio. pp. 151–155. OCLC 497165170.
Page 153: "Con respecto a esta bandera, existen a lo menos tres versiones que no se diferencian mucho; la más popular la declara tricolor (rojo, blanco y negro), las estrellas están sobre un campo rojo; la segunda versión la aproxima a la bandera texana y la declara tricolor, pero: rojo, blanco y azul, en esta versión las estrellas también sobre un campo rojo; y la tercera versión popular la declara tricolor: verde, blanco y rojo, aproximándola a la bandera de México y de algún modo a la bandera de la República del Yucatán (la que sin embargo aún no existía, pues Yucatán aún no se había independizado)."
My translation: "Regarding this flag, there are at least three versions that do not differ much; the most popular declares it tricolor (red, white and black), the stars are on a red field; the second version approximates it to the Texan flag and declares it a tricolor, but: red, white and blue, in this version the stars also on a red field; and the third popular version declares it a tricolor: green, white and red, approximating it to the flag of Mexico and in some way to the flag of the Republic of Yucatan (which, however, did not yet exist, since Yucatan had not yet become independent)."

(b) blue bottom bar and red vertical bar[edit]

Page 42: "Una bandera de tres franjas, dos horizontales de color blanco y azul marino con una vertical en color rojo y tres estrellas blancas fue el estandarte del movimiento."
My translation: "A flag with three stripes, two horizontal white and navy blue with a vertical red and three white stars, was the banner of the movement."
  • Herrera Ledesma, Pedro Alberto (2007). "La República del Río Grande (1838-1840)". In Isassi Cantú, César Humberto; Saldaña Villarreal, María Isabel (eds.). Reynosa, ciudad del futuro, de villa a metrópoli (in Spanish). Reynosa, Mexico: Grupo Editorial Milenio. pp. 151–155. OCLC 497165170.
Page 153: "Con respecto a esta bandera, existen a lo menos tres versiones que no se diferencian mucho; la más popular la declara tricolor (rojo, blanco y negro), las estrellas están sobre un campo rojo; la segunda versión la aproxima a la bandera texana y la declara tricolor, pero: rojo, blanco y azul, en esta versión las estrellas también sobre un campo rojo; y la tercera versión popular la declara tricolor: verde, blanco y rojo, aproximándola a la bandera de México y de algún modo a la bandera de la República del Yucatán (la que sin embargo aún no existía, pues Yucatán aún no se había independizado)."
My translation: "Regarding this flag, there are at least three versions that do not differ much; the most popular declares it tricolor (red, white and black), the stars are on a red field; the second version approximates it to the Texan flag and declares it a tricolor, but: red, white and blue, in this version the stars also on a red field; and the third popular version declares it a tricolor: green, white and red, approximating it to the flag of Mexico and in some way to the flag of the Republic of Yucatan (which, however, did not yet exist, since Yucatan had not yet become independent)."

(c) green bottom bar and red vertical bar[edit]

  • Herrera Ledesma, Pedro Alberto (2007). "La República del Río Grande (1838-1840)". In Isassi Cantú, César Humberto; Saldaña Villarreal, María Isabel (eds.). Reynosa, ciudad del futuro, de villa a metrópoli (in Spanish). Reynosa, Mexico: Grupo Editorial Milenio. pp. 151–155. OCLC 497165170.
Page 153: "Con respecto a esta bandera, existen a lo menos tres versiones que no se diferencian mucho; la más popular la declara tricolor (rojo, blanco y negro), las estrellas están sobre un campo rojo; la segunda versión la aproxima a la bandera texana y la declara tricolor, pero: rojo, blanco y azul, en esta versión las estrellas también sobre un campo rojo; y la tercera versión popular la declara tricolor: verde, blanco y rojo, aproximándola a la bandera de México y de algún modo a la bandera de la República del Yucatán (la que sin embargo aún no existía, pues Yucatán aún no se había independizado)."
My translation: "Regarding this flag, there are at least three versions that do not differ much; the most popular declares it tricolor (red, white and black), the stars are on a red field; the second version approximates it to the Texan flag and declares it a tricolor, but: red, white and blue, in this version the stars also on a red field; and the third popular version declares it a tricolor: green, white and red, approximating it to the flag of Mexico and in some way to the flag of the Republic of Yucatan (which, however, did not yet exist, since Yucatan had not yet become independent)."
  • Saenz de los Reyes, Emiliano (1994). "The Transcripts of the First Annual Palo Alto Conference". In Aaron P. Mahr Yáñez (ed.). Proceedings of the First Annual Palo Alto Conference. First Annual Palo Alto Conference (in Spanish). Palo Alto Battlefield National Historic Site, Brownsville, TX: U.S. Dept. of the Interior. pp. 146–150. OCLC 32985554.
Page 148: "El consejo instalado en Laredo, se trasladó casi de inmediato a Guerrero, también allí se izó la bandera, la cual tenía dos franjas horizontales de igual anchura, la superior blanca y la inferior verde, del lado del asta había una franja roja del mismo ancho paralela al asta en la que se apreciaban tres estrellas blancas en línea vertical. Las tres estrellas pudieran haber simbolizado los tres estados directamente implicados. A todos se les pidió jurar fidelidad a la bandera en una solemne ceremonia que se efectuó en la plaza...."
My translation: "The council installed in Laredo, moved almost immediately to Guerrero, the flag was also raised there, which had two horizontal stripes of equal width, the upper white and the lower green, on the side of the pole there was a red stripe of the same width parallel to the shaft, in which three white stars could be seen in a vertical line. The three stars may have symbolized the three states directly involved. They were all asked to swear allegiance to the flag in a solemn ceremony that took place in the square...."

(d) blue vertical bar with three stripes[edit]

Pages 121-122: "La bandera estaba dividida en cuatro partes: una azul en sentido vertical con tres estrellas blancas; luego, del azul se desprendían tres colores en forma horizontal: negra la de abajo, roja la del centro y blanca la de arriba. Por sus características, es posible que se trate de la llamada bandera de la República de Río Grande, en la cual se comprendían los estados de Texas, Coahuila y Tamaulipas...."
My translation: "The flag was divided into four parts: one vertical blue with three white stars; then, from the blue, three colors detached horizontally: the bottom black, the center red, and the top white. Due to its characteristics, it is possible that it is the so-called flag of the Republic of Río Grande, was to include the states of Texas, Coahuila and Tamaulipas..."
Page 26: "Por otra parte, se ha aducido el separatismo del noreste por el hecho de que entre sus filas se portara una bandera que, dividida en una franja vertical y tres horizontales, representaba a los tres estados orientales, pues en la vertical también incluía tres estrellas. El color de la franja vertical era azul, y el de las horizontales eran plateado (o blanco), rojo y negro. Mariano Arista supo de la existencia de esta bandera por los informes que le rindió un espía, quien adernás la dibuío en un anexo, y así lo remitió Arista al ministro de Guerra a principios de septiembre de 1840."
My translation: "On the other hand, the separatism of the northeast has been adduced due to the fact that a flag was carried among its ranks that, divided into a vertical stripe and three horizontal ones, represented the three eastern states, since the vertical one also included three stars. The color of the vertical stripe was blue, and that of the horizontal ones were silver (or white), red and black. Mariano Arista found out about the existence of this flag from reports given to him by a spy, who also drew it in an appendix, and Arista sent it to the Minister of War at the beginning of September 1840."
Page 145n163: "A flag flown by J. M. J. Carvajal on his campsite near the Nueces River after Zapata and Canales' defeat in Morelos is shown in Figure 5-1. This flag contains three horizontal bands of white, red and black with a blue vertical band on the left side containing three white stars in the blue field. One could conjecture that the three bands and the three stars symbolize the three Mexican states mentioned above. Furthermore, it would be reasonable to assume that this flag design was the same used prior to the Federalist defeat in Morelos."
  • "[Sketch of the Flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande]" (1840) [manuscript]. Courtesy of the Republic of the Rio Grande Museum, Webb County Heritage Foundation, Laredo, TX, ID: XI/481.3/1548, p. f. 87. Mexico City, Mexico: Archivo Histórico de la Defensa Nacional.

Flag with green bottom bar?[edit]

Has someone made a Wikimedia file for the proposed variant with the green bottom bar? TuckerResearch (talk) 13:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To answer my own question: yes, Martianman64 has!
This flag is claimed by historians in Mexico to be the real historical flag of the Republic of the Rio Grande
Thanks, User:Martianman64. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The green should probably be a darker shade, as one would hardly mistake that shade for black. BilCat (talk) 17:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. @Martianman64:, is there any chance you can change this file with the shade of green used on the flag of Mexico? TuckerResearch (talk) 17:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. I'd have done it myself, but editing SVG files is not in my skill set yet. I'm learning slowly, but I won't edit files on Commons until my skills are much better. BilCat (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. It's a skill I wish I had but I do not have it! TuckerResearch (talk) 18:32, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a flagmaker program I use for "personal enrichment". It can output to SVG but sometimes the files have errors, so I don't upload those files to Commons (any more!) BilCat (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, happy to do that. I will do it right now. Martianman64 (talk) 19:32, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
whyd you just revert it? NorthTension (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted it because I accidentally sized it incorrectly so a little bit of the old green color was still visible. Should be good now though. Martianman64 (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! BilCat (talk) 21:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
no probbers NorthTension (talk) 00:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Split[edit]

I've split some of the content to the Flag of Laredo, Texas. It makes more sense to have a separate city flag article now that the flag of the republic is disputed. I've not copied over any of the dispute information, as this is still based primarily on primary sources and original research. BilCat (talk) 19:19, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a good idea. I will try to add some sources when I can. TuckerResearch (talk) 13:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Blue tricolor[edit]

This is a variant of the Republic of the Rio Grande based on descriptions found in Mexican sources

Here is the blue tricolor. Now that I have created this flag, I remember I have actually seen it before. There are various online groups in Mexico that claim to be "separatist movements" representing the Republic of the Rio Grande. They are of questionable seriousness, but they use this flag to represent their movement for whatever reason. Martianman64 (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd love to find some sources for these separatist movements! TuckerResearch (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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