Talk:Fingal

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Name and status[edit]

Fine Gall, the Irish for Fingal, means "the tribe of the foreigners", not the fair haired foreirners. I would say that the bit that Fingal is sometimes called North County Dublin is a bit off, its nearly always called that, people only say Fingal if they are talking bout the council etc. Bolak77 01:27, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The more I read this, the more I feel that something is not quite right. Fingal is an administrative county, not a "real" county, in the eyes of most people who live here. Perhaps we'd have been better off if it had been call "North County Dublin" council instead of Fingal. Bolak77 01:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

changes made[edit]

i changed a few things which i believe was incorrect 1. the translation of "fine Gall" was incorrect it means "tribe of the foreigner" not the "fair haired foreigner" as "Bolak77" pointed out. e.g. [1]

2. changed county to administrative county

3. moved last line to end of first paragraph and added that most people dont recognise this as a real county and just refer to the area as [north_county_dublin]

27th county?[edit]

Does this mean we have 27 countys in Ireland, not 26? Fergananim 17:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It would be 30, not 27 - Dublin is split into Dublin Corporation, Fingal, South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, and Tipperary is split into two counties also. --Kiand 13:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tipperary is not split into two counties. It's two administrative districts. Jesus Theboycaoimhs (talk) 13:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Status[edit]

The law of the state is quite clear on the status of the county of Fingal, it is simply a "county" and nothing else, it is not an "administrative area" or "administrative county" - any suggestion that "It's an administrative area, not a true county" is patently incorrect. In particular Local Government Act 2001 (Section 10) does not assign any other term or the accompanying schedule[2].

Futhurmore the term used Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 (Section 9) of "administrative counties" is defunct[3].

Djegan 21:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So County Dublin no longer actually exists, and Ireland now has 29 counties? I stand corrected. The County Dublin article will surely need to be redirected, though, or at least have the opening paragraph changed. On a somewhat facetious note - has anyone told the Gaelic Athletic Association? Bastun 21:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes County Dublin, as an area or county in law does not exist - sure its cultural/historic/traditional, but that is all. The only statutory authority - that I known of - that uses the name County Dublin is County Dublin Vocational Education Committee and even that is only a fraction of the cultural and historical county[4].

To put it in more simple terms the Oireachtas and not the GAA are the representatives of the people, the former pass the laws. Djegan 21:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact other articles on wikipedia need to reflect the correct terminology and remove outdated terms. Djegan 22:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In that case you are going to have to split the six counties into 26 as follows - Antrim, Ards, Armagh, Ballymena, Ballymoney, Banbridge, Belfast, Carrickfergus, Castlereagh, Coleraine, Cookstown, Craigavon, Derry, Down, Dungannon and South Tyrone, Fermanagh, Larne, Limavady, Lisburn, Magherafelt, Moyle, Newry and Mourne, Newtownabbey, North Down, Omagh, Strabane! Isnt Galway City a county borough! I dont think anyone really recognises these as actually boroughs and only really see them as administrative regions. Beaumontproject 10:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about Northern Ireland - it is about the Republic of Ireland - Northern Ireland has not officially used the counties since 1973, except for the Lord Lieutenant and Postcode Address File. If you think their is 26 counties of Northern Ireland then that is original research. Can you show that Fingal is not a county, because I can show it is. Wikipedia needs to demonstrate the facts that can be cited, not personal beliefs. Djegan 11:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See [here] Beaumontproject 15:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what point you are making. Clarify? Djegan 16:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Folks: somebody deleted mention of Fingal's county status, and I undid that, simply because, the LAW is clear. The Irish parliament decided Fingal is now a county, get it??!!Fingal was raised to county status on 1 January, 1994, through the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 and more formally in the Local Government Act, 2001, with the division of old County Dublin into three new counties. Under the latter law, Fingal is determined and listed as a county (repeat COUNTY!!!) under Part 1 - Counties, of Schedule 5 (page 195)[5]. Tricky 21:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its there in black and white - read the pdf in Tricky's post above. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Page Name[edit]

If I recollect, this page was at "County of Fingal" for some time, which I thought was reasonable, as technically it is a county. It's also quite reasonable not to assume the traditional phrasing of "County Fingal", seeing as it's not really commonly referred to as a county at all. Also the form "County of" suits the other Dublin cocos such as South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown. zoney ♣ talk 17:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aye, sounds reasonable all right. I'd support a move back. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 08:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fingal is not a county in Ireland. It has its own county council. But, it is not a county. There a 26 counties in the republic. Fingal is not one. It is part of Dublin.

Hello anonymous visitor. No, Fingal is a county, a legally established administrative entity. It is also the case that to many of its residents it is part of County Dublin at the same time, but this is nothing new, or unique to Ireland. Ask residents of Leeds where they live and they'll mention Yorkshire, which has not been a county legally for a long time, same for Uxbridge and other Middlesex towns. So Ireland has 32 counties, 6 in the North, 26 in the Republic, and in some sense always will have, but local government is delivered by way of 26 local authorities in NI, and 29 modern counties in the RoI. I guess you could call the 26 traditional counties or some such if it helps. All this was debated many years ago, as evidenced on this page. Twilson r (talk) 23:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

County Crest[edit]

The article doesn't explain the crest fully:

What is the bird and it's significance?
What is the crop in the top right of the crest and does it have significance beyond the agricultural?
Does the St. Brigid's cross have significance beyond a historic expression of piety? (e.g. A specific link with the saint or a historic event.)

Autarch (talk) 16:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

With all due respect to what is claimed as the origin, may I mention that fifteen thousand years ago the sea-level of the world was 400 feet lower, with the Western European continent as one continuous land-mass. What is now the British Isles and Ireland were joined together and to the mainland of France and the low countries, as the present North Sea and Channels were also dry land. Vestiges of the original name of this land still exist in Portu-gal, Gal-icia, Gaul, Gales or - now - Wales, Cornu-gales or Cornwall, Galway, Galloway (by which you still walked to Ireland as the sea-level rose over the succeeding ten thousand years) and Fin-gal, or the Land's End of those times, with the Shetland and Orkney Isles still buried under the retreating ice. - So Fingal, whatever it has come to be applied to - and so to mean - since then, would seem to owe its origin to being the apparent tip or fin of the western world of Gal. Absolutelyamazin (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, let me get this straight... 15,000 years ago, whooever was living there was speaking English. Right. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, not quite, but the sounds of a language from which the present place-names derived, later to evolve slightly and be adopted and used by - among others - English-speakers. However, already language enough, much advanced from the polysyllabic sounds of Neanderthal. Now, have you that straight enough? Absolutelyamazin (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Ermm - Woops. That should be monosyllabic - but very expressive - sounds of Neanderthal. And nobody picked it up? Is anybody there? Absolutelyamazin (talk) 05:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Edits December 2009[edit]

Some recent editors have ideologically deemed it appropriate to almost completely trim the information on medieval governance of Fingal. However, it would be more appropriate for those who are well-intended to actually expand the historical treatment rather than eliminating previous excellent and concise references to titles that related to Fingal (even though the Earldom in fact was a misnomer, in that the Plunketts' lands were entirely in Meath, as their Estate papers in Fingal Archives indicate, the prescriptive lordship of 1208 was specifically for Fingal territorially, including for example the superintendence of the commons of Garristown by the Prestons. Those old bogs at Garristown and Balrothery were the main sources of fuel for Dublin in medieval times, and hence the Preston lordship/barony and later viscountcy was very relevant to the economy of the time). Compare with the article on Clontarf, which has a good slice of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.14.34 (talk) 00:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with above. The history of Fingal does not begin with its inclusion in Dublin in 1210. Previous edits from Sweden have not helped. Tricky (talk) 09:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know where Sweden comes into it, but the article, comparing say three days ago to now, looks a lot more professional (when I last saw it earlier in the year it was embarrassing for such a major chunk of Ireland to have so poor a piece). And "almost completely trim" is nonsense, as a quick check of the "byte count" will show - the material on the old Prescriptive Barony has simply been moved to a new sub-heading, with Earl Fingall (almost utterly irrelevant, IMHO), lower still. Likewise, "eliminating references"? Where? - as far as I can see, they're all still there.

I agree that what is needed is more, but more of the real history - what was happening in the area then and now called Fingal for all those centuries? It was not, I am quite sure, much to do with the Prestons, or a prescriptive barony defunct in any sense of government for more than 500 years (and eventually acquired by a nice local history fan, with no notion of "governance.") The reality is that Fingal was part of Co. Dublin from about the same time as this "barony" - and the justiciars, the many, many landholding families (including more relevant Plunkett branches, at Dunsoghly, for example, and the powerful Barnewalls, as well as the St. Lawrences), and late the Grand Jury and so on, were much more significant than some ancient feudal title (supervision of one commons area, for example - so what?).

It does not encourage participation when inaccurate aspersions are thrown at genuine contributors, or nonsense like seeking citations, claiming that reasonable edits are "dubious." 188.162.232.3 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Hmm. Chto vi khotete? Much POV above ("more p[rofessional"; embarassing"; major chunk of Ireland"?? (fact: all Irish counties individually can only be minor chunks); as for other titled families: no dispute, but what about adding the historic content, instead of bemoaning so much- Pozhalsta!! . The geolocation for the unsigned edits by IP 194.237.142.6 is Sweden, and the previous (last) entries preceding this comment, issued by IP 188.162.232.3 is Moscow, Russian Federation. - And I am in Austria! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.71.28 (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK folks, let me wade in here, and bring some historical perspective to add value.....kindly let me take a crack at inputting some real history narrative. It will take some days, so please don't over-edit until I get it up to the Middle Ages. Thanks all!! Seneschally (talk) 23:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fingal County Council[edit]

I have removed the sentence stating that the Council is currently controlled by an alliance of the Labour Party and Socialist Party as this is incorrect. The Socialist Party Councillors voted for the Labour Party's Ciaran Byrne as Chair of the Council but no actual alliance exists. BOZG (talk) 15:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine Gall not Fionn Gall[edit]

The etymology of "Fingal" is "Fine Gall", meaning "foreign tribe", i.e. Norsemen, as stated in the opening sentence of the article. It is not related to "Fionn Gall", meaning fair(-haired) strangers. The "references" supporting "Fionn Gall" are spurious: reference 5, the bare url, makes no mention of the area nor of the Fionnghaill, only a person named Dubhgall; The Scandinavian Kingdom of Dublin has a discussion of the etymology of Fionnghaill, not the place-name "Fingal"; and Fingal and its Churches was written in 1888, before there was any serious study of Viking Ireland. I don't know about the Duchas booklet, but it's a safe bet that it was similarly misquoted. For "Fine Gall" see Dublin English: Evolution and Change By Raymond Hickey, Fionn mac Cumhaill: Celtic Myth in English Literature By James MacKillop or Annals of Ulster, Cathal Mac Maghnusa Maguire. --Scolaire (talk) 09:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

County Fingal or just Fingal?[edit]

Is it common usage or just OR to state "In Ireland, the usage of the word county nearly always comes before rather than after the county name; thus "County Clare" in Ireland as opposed to "Clare County" in Michigan, US. The exception to this norm occurs in the case of those counties created after 1994 which drop the word county entirely; thus "Fingal" as opposed to "County Fingal"."? Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion at Talk:Counties_of_Ireland#Style_for_counties_created_after_1997 Snappy (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Status of Fingal[edit]

There are 29 County Councils in Ireland with a total of 753 members.

There is at least one Council for each county. Dublin county has 3 Councils including South Dublin County Council, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Tipperary county has 2 councils; North and South Tipperary. The county of Dublin still exists.

Source: Citzens Information Website Sept 2012. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/local_and_regional_government/local_authorities.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.57.223 (talk) 12:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That would Fingal County Council, the administartive body of the county. Murry1975 (talk) 13:35, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Worth repeating from above - "Fingal was raised to county status on 1 January 1994, through the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 and more formally in the Local Government Act, 2001, with the division of old County Dublin into three new counties. Under the latter law, Fingal is determined and listed as a county (repeat COUNTY!!!) under Part 1 - Counties, of Schedule 5 (page 195)." Snappy (talk) 12:08, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even Fingal Councillors disagree with you.

Fingal Co. Co. holds the status of a full council (at present – this may change when new boundary commission makes it report later in the year) and has its own administrative area. Just the same as Dublin City Council, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Co. Co., and South Dublin Co. Co., all within the boundary of Co. Dublin.

Kind regards Eithne Loftus (Fingal Councillor)

Dear Ms Loftus, (if you are indeed said person), could you please stop disruptive editing of this article? Whatever about Fingal County Council, at Wikipedia, we strive towards WP:Consensus, and the current consensus is that Fingal is a county. The evidence for this is in the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993, from which I quote:

“the county”, in relation to any time before the establishment day, means the administrative county of Dublin;

9.—(1) On the establishment day—

(a) the county shall cease to exist, (my bolding)

(b) the borough shall cease to exist,

(c) the electoral counties shall cease to exist, and

(d) the united district of the burial board shall cease to exist.

(2) On the establishment day the area of the county, as existing on the commencement of section 8 , shall stand divided into three administrative counties which shall each be coterminous with the area of the corresponding electoral county (as existing on such commencement) and which administrative counties shall be known respectively as—

(a) South Dublin,

(b) Fingal,

(c) Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Furthermore from the Electoral Amendment, 2005:

"Constituencies

Dublin North - In the county of Fingal the electoral divisions of: (my bolding)

Balbriggan Rural, Balbriggan Urban, Balgriffin, Ballyboghil, Balscadden, Clonmethan, Donabate, Garristown, Hollywood, Holmpatrick, Kinsaley, Lusk, Malahide East, Malahide West, Portmarnock North, Portmarnock South, Rush, Skerries, Swords-Forrest, Swords-Glasmore, Swords-Lissenhall, Swords-Seatown, Swords Village; etc."

These Acts of the Oireachtas (i.e the law of the land) should provide you with enough proof that Fingal is indeed a county. That said, as has been pointed out in many discussions here, County Dublin still exists as a 'traditional' county, though what that is has also been a point of discussion! I look forward to a civil and fruitful discussion with you here. Also can you tell me where that quote is from. Finally, I remind not to edit against consensus and this will result in the article being protected for longer and longer periods. Rgds, Snappy (talk) 19:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you (188.141.57.223) please reply to my points here, instead of reverting? Please also read WP:Civil and WP:NPOV, and also WP:3RR too. Rgds, Snappy (talk) 21:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More evidence from Irish Statue Book, namely Local Government Act, 2001 (my bolding)

"10.—(1) On and from the establishment day and for the purposes of local government, the State has local government areas in accordance with this section.

(2) The State continues to stand divided into local government areas to be known as counties and cities which are the areas set out in Parts 1 and 2, respectively, of Schedule 5.

SCHEDULE 5

Section 10(2).

Local Government Areas (Counties and Cities)

PART 1

Counties

Carlow Mayo Cavan Meath

Clare Monaghan Cork North Tipperary

Donegal Offaly Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Roscommon

Fingal Sligo Galway South Dublin

Kerry South Tipperary Kildare Waterford

Kilkenny Westmeath Laois Wexford

Leitrim Wicklow Limerick Longford Louth"

May I also ask why you are concerned with Fingal only, and not Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, South Dublin, North Tipperary and South Tipperary, aka the other 'non-traditional' counties? Can you show that Fingal is not a county, because I have shown that it clearly is. Remember its not the GAA, Citizens Information or An Post that makes the law but the Oireachtas. Wikipedia needs to demonstrate the facts that can be cited, not ones personal beliefs. Snappy (talk) 23:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The county of Fingal has its own Enterprise Board called Fingal County Enterprise Board. It says on its website: "The Fingal County Enterprise Board provides support for small business promoters in the form of: grant assistance, development of company management skills, provision of advice, training, mentoring, counselling and other information, as well as the development of an enterprise culture in the County." (my bolding) Snappy (talk) 00:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The county councillor which the IP/Not/... contacted states that they are a county council "Fingal Co. Co. holds the status of a full council", yes thats Fingal County Council which is the council of .....where? but only county Fingal! As the facts show above, and if this is to be changed it would need to be sourced. Which it cant. Murry1975 (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a county Theboycaoimhs (talk) 14:25, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection requested[edit]

Due to ongoning IP vandalism and massive sockpuppetry, page protection has been requested. Snappy (talk) 12:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No comment on the edits (I was the person who came up with the "Fingal is a county in Ireland" wording, but that's by the by), but there is no vandalism going on here. These are factual edits by somebody who disagrees with you, and has stated his/her case here on the talk page. Therefore, it is a content dispute. Sockpuppetry? Probably, given the number of newly-created SPA's involved. Perhaps you should amend your request to say "sockpuppetry and edits against consensus." Scolaire (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And now it appears the "wrong version" is fully protected. Be careful what you wish for... Scolaire (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Irish county intros - consensus[edit]

The current wording for intros of Irish counties was agreed at WikiProject:Ireland in July 2011, see here, after a lengthy debate, involving many editors. Consensus can and does change, and if any editor wants to try and change the Irish county intros, feel free to re-open this discussion. Snappy (talk) 15:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Language[edit]

McCrum, Cran and MacNeil's lay book on The Story of English (p. 166) shows Fingal as having/being a Gaelic isolate.211.225.33.104 (talk) 08:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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No source given for population in infobox.[edit]

The population given in the article is for 2011. A source is given. The population in the infobox according to the 2016 has no source! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wanfried-Dublin (talk • contribs) 10:29, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Fingal is not a county[edit]

Ridiculous page. Fingal is not defined as a county of Ireland. Nonsense Theboycaoimhs (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you're wrong. Please read the article, or, for example, the linked Act of the Oireachtas, and/or the 'Status' section of the talk page, above. You have reverted more than three times already. Consider this your warning to stop edit warring, as more than three such reverts can get you blocked. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:15, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a ridiculous fudge of language and knowingly misrepresenting something to make Fingal appear to be a county in Ireland. It is an administrative region. Ugh Theboycaoimhs (talk) 14:32, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh indeed, when people don't understand how the statute law of Ireland works. Read the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993. It quite clearly abolishes the county of Dublin - 9.—(1) On the establishment day— (a) the county shall cease to exist, and creates the new counties of Fingal, South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown. The act was passed by the Oireachtas, so it's law. If you don't like it, fair enough; but it's a fact and you can't argue with facts. Spleodrach (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A sock/meat puppet is now editing as well. Spleodrach (talk) 16:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Subtle plans are here again" :) ——Serial^# 17:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fingal IS NOT a county. It was created in 1994 to better manage the growing population of County Dublin. It is a local government area, NOT a county. And anyway, even if it legally is a county, Wikipedia doesn't exactly follow the exact legal way, it follows the way it's vastly recognized by the population, ask ANYONE in Ireland and they will say Dublin is a County and if they even know what Fingal is they'll tell you it's a local government area (or something along those lines). Calling Fingal a county in this article is just pointless, confusing, and contradictory to other Wikipedia articles and to the way people and organisations (including the government many times) refer to Dublin and Fingal. ComplainingCamel (talk) 15:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there, do you not understand basic law? Fingal IS a county. Read the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993. It quite clearly abolishes the county of Dublin and creates the new counties of Fingal, South Dublin and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown. The act was passed by the Oireachtas, so it is THE law. If you don't like it, fair enough; but it's a fact and you can't argue with facts. Btw, we don't "ask anyone" their opinion on what is what, because on Wikipedia, we stick to facts not some rando's opinion! Spleodrach (talk) 23:56, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is such a strange page to come across. Thought the Act stated that it would be coterminous with the electoral county. Think this is really getting into the weeds. Nobody outside of this thinks Fingal is a county. Can't trust wikipedia I suppose. Kevmedia1 (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not "some rando", all 5,123,536 people living in Ireland. King Bilbo I (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]