Talk:F. Murray Abraham

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Comment[edit]

If you're only going to make a partial list, why not include "The Name of the Rose"? 129.177.138.102 22:15, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

F. Murray Abraham was not given a credit in the "Bonfire Of The Vanities" for his role as Mayor Abe Weiss. His role as mayor of New York included numerous scenes and a fair amount of dialog. Why would an Academy Award winning actor not be credited in a movie where he clearly had more than just a small part?

Name at birth[edit]

IMDB, a source we cite, says he was born "Fahrid Murray Abraham", yet the article says he was born "Frederico Abrammo Monteglini". Can anyone explain this discrepancy and confirm his true birth name? JackofOz 13:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it was corrected way back on 14 Apr 2006. NFA. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Italian or Arab?[edit]

I found a link to F. Murray from the list of Arab-Americans, but here it says he is from Italian heritage, so what is it?

Here is what [1]says:

"His grandfather was a legendary singer in his village in Syria, and his father was the only son to survive the famine in Syria during WWI. His father emigrated, met and married an Italian-American woman, and Abraham was born as WWII started gearing up" I will try edit this article --christos7 23:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He is not Arab-American, he is ethnically Assyrian and Italian.

A US government website states he is Italian and Assyrian; [[2]] Chaldean 22:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Italian" and "Assyrian"/"Arab" (and "American")? :-) -- 201.50.251.197 14:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He ISN'T an Arab. Christ...

According to an interview on the Diane Rehm show on 15 October 2012, both he and his father have the first name Frederick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.154.237.4 (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Command of Italian?[edit]

I don't know much about Mr Abraham's work. I see that his mother was "an Italian American, the daughter of an immigrant", and that he has appeared in many films with titles (and I'm guessing, dialogue) in Italian. Does anybody have a cite on his level of fluency in the Italian language? -- 201.50.251.197 14:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Different Photo Please?[edit]

I'm hoping someone can add a different photo of FMA. Using a photo of him made up to look old in Amadeus doesn't really tell you what he looks like. Perhaps someone can find a different photo of him from that film? Thanks.Lafong 19:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Let's keep this discussion civil, please.) The current photo of F.Murray and fan probably isn't the best either.MrYdobon (talk) 16:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nature[edit]

F Murray has narrated a ton of "Nature" documentaries. You can hardly watch Nature anymore without hearing his resonant baritone.

This needs added to the article.67.170.160.194 (talk) 06:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For example, right now I'm watching a documentary about humpback whales and orcas in the arctic--narrated by guess who.67.170.160.194 (talk) 06:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

F Murray Abraham is not Iraqi he is Syrian (not Assyrian)[edit]

I was a friend of F. Murray Abraham's extended family in Pittsburgh. Neither Abraham nor his relatives are Iraqi. They are Syrians. They are Antiochian Orthodox Christians but are not called Assyrians. They refer to themselves like anyone else from Syria, namely "Syrian." No Syrian calls themselves "Assyrian". Why shy away from the word Syrian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 (talk) 04:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also I was baptized Syrian Orthodox. I never say I am Assyrian Christian or Assyrian Orthodox , I say Syrian Christian or Syrian Orthodox Christian. People who write these articles are reading to much Wiki history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.250.100 (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is an Assyrian and a member of the Syriac Orthodox Church, Assyrian is an ethnie and Syriac Orthodox is a Christian denomination. He is not an arab. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000719/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm Elvis214 (talk) 21:54, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assyrian? Syriac? No one from Syria refers to themselves with these terms[edit]

Assyria is an ancient kingdom that lasted until 650 BC. Although it covered a large area it is considered to be in Iraq. Also, Syriac is not what Syrian Christians are called. They are called Syrian Orthodox Christians or Antiochian Orthodox. "Syriac" is not really used. No Christian Syrian or even muslim Syrian would ever call themselves Assyrian. It's like calling a Syrian a "Babylonian"

Assyrian[edit]

He's not "Assyrian" he's Syrian. Just like Steve Jobs and Jerry Seinfeld. No one calls themselves Assyrian. That was an ancient empire. It's like calling French people Normans or Greek people Athenians or Spartans

You don’t know shit, Syrian is a nationality, not an ethnicity. While Assyrian is an ethnicity. There are ethnic Assyrians Syriac Christian’s from Syria and Iraq too, they speak the Syriac Aramaic language with different dialects, while the majority of Syria beeing Arab Muslims. People called as Assyrian syriac or Chaldean are the same ethnic group, with a own aramaic language and abjad own churches and own history. They are not Arabs.

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Gained visibility ... with a voiceover??[edit]

The article says "He gained visibility voicing a talking bunch of grapes in a series of television commercials for Fruit of the Loom underwear.[10]" Is this a joke? If not, a better phrase could be found .. e.g. "gained more attention" or "became well known as" or something - gaining visibility through voice work just sounds daft. Or is it some sneaky vandalism? Jabberwock359 (talk) 12:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

F. Murray Abraham's father true ethnicity and country of origin[edit]

If we look at the direct primary documentation (census records, birth certificates and obituary of his mother) and the facts about his father and himself that has come out out of Murray Abraham's mouth we can know for sure his father came from Ottoman Syria

Here is what is know for sure coming from the above sources/documentation:

-His paternal grandparents Murry Abraham and Fadia Abraham (nee Albert according to family trees at Ancestry) and father Fred (born in 1915-1916) came from Ottoman Syria (usually written just as Syria or Syrian Republic in most censuses and certificates, and does not necessarily present day Syria) and settled in Fort City northeast of Pittsburg in the 1920s when his father Fred was 5 years old (although a later record indicates that he was actually 9 years old at that time)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRCC-4C4?i=9&cc=1810731&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AXCZW-6CG

Fred's death certificate https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JR4M-DWL

Family trees at Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1030/?name=Murry_Abraham&birth=_pennsylvania-usa_41&pcat=42&spouse=Fadia

-Murray, who was born Murry, was born 1939-1940 in Ambridge, northwest of Pittsburg. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89MT-PQVN?i=8&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKQQ8-SJF

Murray's mother Josephine Stello Abraham obituary https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/elpasotimes/obituary.aspx?n=josephine-abraham&pid=156404738&fhid=7166

In Murray's and his mother own words saying his father came from Syria, was a Christian Syrian and that he is of Syrian ancestry. He also states his father came to US in the 1920s due to a famine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469

https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/

https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php

About the famine in Abraham's words https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html


The problem is that no documents nor him as stated WHERE in Ottoman Syria his father came from nor has any documents nor him stated his father was of Assyrian ethnicity. But using the facts that we have from the documents and what he himself has said here is what we can deduct:

-Murray has never mentioned anywhere the Assyrian Genocide. If his father was Assyrian wouldn't he have mentioned the Assyrian Genocide in any of his interviews?? Instead he says his father escaped a famine in Syria in the early 20s. Well the only famine that we know of is the Great Famine of Mount Lebanon, which affected only the people of modern day Lebanon not Syrians nor Assyrians. Just from this fact its pretty clear his father came from Mount Lebanon in Ottoman Syria not present day Syria.

-Murray and his mother stated that his grandfather was a priest and a legendary chanter/singer in the Orthodox Church in Ottoman Syria before the 1920s. This means he resided in Ottoman Syria for quite some time before the 1920s.

The Assyrians were not living in Ottoman Syria at the time Murray's grandparents left to the US. They were resettling to North-East present Syria from Upper Mesopotamia in Turkey (Tur Abdin and Harput/Kharphut) which was not Ottoman Syria at the time but simply called south east Turkey or Ottoman Empire. They resettled to present day Lebanon from those areas as well as Adana (French Cicilia) after the famine and the blockade had passed around the 1930s as you can see they dont appear listed in the census of Syria nor Lebanon before the 1930s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Assyrian_settlements#Syria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian%E2%80%93Chaldean%E2%80%93Syriac_diaspora#Lebanon

The Syriac Orthodox Church that the Assyrians are adherents to was located in Tur Abdin, Turkey but not in Ottoman Syria during those times and only arrived to Homs in Ottoman Syria in 1933 later moving to Damascus in 1949. So his grandfather was then a priest of the Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church in Mount Lebanon, Syria which is not the Orthodox church followed by the Assyrians.

-The Assyrians that settled in America before the 1940s all came from Urmia in Persia, southeast Turkey and Iraq. https://www.nineveh.com/ASSYRIAN-AMERICANS.html It was only after the 1950s that Assyrians from Lebanon and Syria migrated to America due to the conflicts in the area.

-His grandparents and father settled in Pittsburg in the 1920s. There is no documented history of any Assyrians settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s. The Assyrians that settled in the US in the 1920s mainly settled in Detroit and Chicago and were followers of the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Presbyterian Church not the Antiochian Orthodox Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Americans

There is however documented history of Lebanese settling in Pittsburg in the 1920s https://books.google.se/books?id=EVxkaw0udDwC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=lebanese+in+pittsburgh&source=bl&ots=qL6YRbD7v8&sig=ACfU3U2xe_yYD-oS0-QGIjHc4VWGfc1qlw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIj7X71snoAhUtiYsKHdjvDI84HhDoATAFegQIDBAo#v=onepage&q=lebanese%20in%20pittsburgh&f=false

https://popularpittsburgh.com/pittsburgh-arabs/


-His grandparents and father later settled in El Paso, Texas in the 1940s. There is no documented history of Assyrians settling in Texas during those times. Some of the Assyrians that settled in Detroit and Chicago coming from Turkey and Iran due to the Assyrian Genocide latter moved to San Diego, California and Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Americans#In_Michigan

There is however documented evidence of Lebanese and Syrians (mainly Lebanese though) settling in El Paso. In fact two of the largest clothing companies started by Lebanese were founded in Texas: Haggar Clothing and Farah Clothing (founded in El Paso). https://texasalmanac.com/topics/culture/lebanesesyrians/lebanesesyrian-texans F. Murray Abraham himself worked in the Farah Clothing factory owned by a Lebanese family before launching a career in acting https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue/198605/the.arab.americans.htm.


The most reliable indirect sources which have talked about Murray Abraham's ancestry, meaning books not random pages with an Assyrian editor/Assyrian agenda, or non reliable websites/internet pages, have referred to him as of Syro-Lebanese descent, not just of Syrian much less of Assyrian descent:

https://books.google.se/books?id=tmHEm5ohoCUC&pg=PA1525&lpg=PA1525&dq=f.+murray+abraham+syro-lebanese&source=bl&ots=MjB4T0r3B6&sig=ACfU3U3SOePxnZOS0_9TYN9B37topvQ1-g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6kPvEhMroAhVDAhAIHa8RCysQ6AEwCXoECAwQKQ#v=onepage&q=f.%20murray%20abraham%20syro-lebanese&f=false

https://books.google.se/books?id=V4QrAAAAYAAJ&q=f.+murray+abraham+lebanese&dq=f.+murray+abraham+lebanese&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEq6DjhMroAhUJqIsKHfU8C5MQ6AEIPzAD

https://books.google.se/books?id=lI5ERUmHf3YC&pg=PT5954&dq=f.+murray+abraham+lebanese&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEq6DjhMroAhUJqIsKHfU8C5MQ6AEITzAF#v=onepage&q=f.%20murray%20abraham%20lebanese&f=false

https://books.google.se/books?id=xs0LAAAAYAAJ&dq=Prominent+among+them+are+F.+Murray+Abraham+%281985+academy+award%29+who+once+worked+at+the+Farah+clothing+plant&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Farah+clothing+plant

In fact in one of the very first articles written about him that came out in the New York Times in 1979 before he became famous and won an Oscar in 1985, he was said to be of Lebanese and Italian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/12/22/archives/teibeles-demon-feels-sure-he-is-going-to-be-famous-a-matter-of.html. Perhaps it was after he won the Oscar that the Assyrians started spreading that he was one of their own despite that fact that all the evidence so far stills points out to what was said then in 1979.


I think the reason F. Murray Abraham continues to identify as a Syrian instead of as Lebanese (but never as Assyrian) is because he perhaps was never able to find out where in Ottoman Syria his grandparents and father came from since as he himself has stated they spoke very little English and did not like to talk about their origins. But the information he seemed to have been able to gather from them and the facts he has shared about his family life (where they settled and moved to) does point out his grandparents came from Mount Lebanon due to the famine there and therefore he is of Lebanese descent not Syrian nor Assyrian.Chris O' Hare (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Commonweal is cited as a source, and was rejected for no good reason. Commonweal was reprinting a Catholic Herald article, an equally reliable secondary source. These sources should be accepted as evidence of Abraham's Assyrian descent. Elizium23 (talk) 00:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These arguments make no sense. Many of the Assyrians that perished did so due to famine or starvation, or disease during the genocide and most of them were Syriac Assyrians. His father could easily be an arabized, or non-nationilistic Assyrian as there are many who are in Syria. Your sources do not even mention the famine of Mount lebanon. Also, Syriac Assyrians did not go where other Assyrians went especially in the early 1900s and there were little to no Assyrians in the United States in general back then. The communities were almost non-existant. There are Syriacs in places like Florida, and New Jersey where no other Assyrians live in. Some Assyrians from Syria also identify as Syrian so that argument also doesn't make sense. Henanton (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also I'd just like to add that a church someone goes to means nothing. Many of Assyrians became Protestants, Catholics, etc. One prominent figure is Malik Khoshaba who became a Protestant and he was originally Church of the East. Henanton (talk) 21:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All the primary evidence meaning official documents and things said by the Murray Abraham and Abraham's family themselves such as religious affiliation of the family contradict any secondary evidence such as online articles that assign Murray Assyrian descent. Seems like most of those online articles that assign him Assyrian descent 1) Have not examined carefully the primary evidence 2) Do not seem to know much about religious affiliation of the ethnoreligious groups of the Middle East as well as the history of their respective migrations/diaspora 3) Just repeat what they see in Wikipedia which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which are not the same thing. Yes the Assyrians belong to the Syriac Orthodox Church but that is not the same as the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Syrian Orthodox Church is the same as the Antiochian Greek Orthodox ChurchChris O' Hare (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Besides the already discussed information in the obituary of Adele Hendricks Abraham (1923-2019),aunt of Murray Abraham, it is stated she, three of her sisters and her brother Fred Abraham, father of Murray Abrahm were born in Myklos/Muqlus in todays Syria. Link- https://obits.ocregister.com/obituaries/orangecounty/obituary.aspx?n=adele-hendricks-bobbie&pid=194874159

Death certificate and obituary of Marion Abraham Unsell (1914-1998), aunt of Murray Abraham, who died in El Paso in 1988 where it says she was born in Myklos in today's Syria https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS1-JH4Y https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se Birth of one of her children https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VD4D-638

Fred Tony Abraham (b. 1916-1920 in Ford City), father of Murray Abraham, settled in El Paso, Texas https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K5WK-F8F and died in Texas in 1995 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/106807003/fred-t-abraham

He was born in Miklos, Syria according to his World War II draft here https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2238&h=6910133&tid=&pid=&queryId=8f322267c21ddd4f2b3d2d27377c88eb&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bVu429&_phstart=successSource (requires a trial membership or paid subscription to see it)

Census of Murray Abraham grandfather with his children in 1930 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XCZW-6CG Murray was born in 1877 and immigrated to US in 1897 and his wife Fida (Hilda) was born 1890 and immigrated in in 1925 with the children Census of Hilda Abraham (here it says she was born circa 1894) with some her daughters in 1940 in Ford City, Armstrong, Pennsylvania https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQ8Q-5TYChris O' Hare (talk) 22:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources such as Commonwealth magazine, Arabamerican and IMDB are not legitimate and reliable sources. In the sources already provided in his article, Murray Abraham himself has said his father emigrated from Syria and that is family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church (Assyrians do not belong to this religious affiliation as discussed already in the Talk Page). All the official documentation of Murray Abraham's family say his family emigrated from Myklos/Muqlus, Syria where his father was born.

Henanton Here in Wikipedia, it is stated to "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources" as per first sentence of second paragraph in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons With the highest quality in for Historical matters being official documents, autobiographies and oral and videos as per first and second sentence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Books/Peer-reviewed journals as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Magazines and Newspapers from respectable publishing house as the last source if the first ones are not available as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters, in the field of history and biographies, the older and closer the source is to the person involved with the event, the more weight it has over secondary sources.

You cannot give a secondary source (especially unrealiable ones) undue weight over primary sources such as official documents (obituaries, birth/death/marriage certificates) and what the subject himself has said in oral interviews in articles as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. You also cannot say all reliable sources say he is Assyrian which is completely false since the three reliable sources in the article https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php and https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html (and many more) say his grandfather and father were Syrian.

Claiming that Murray Abraham's family converted into the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church without providing any source for that is WP:OR and to keep ignoring that Murray Abraham himself says in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html that his family escaped famine in Syria (which means the famine of Mount Lebanon since there wasnt any other famine but that in the Levant during those years) saying that there was famine in the Assyrian Genocide as well is disruption and OR

The primary and more reliable sources state:

1) That his father and aunts were born in Myklos/Muqlus, Syria. But you say that has nothing to do with his ethnicity ignoring that no Assyrians ever settled in the Valley of the Christians (Wadi Al-Nasara) during 1910-1915 when his father was born there. You just want to assume and use your non-reliable source to come to that conclusion

2) That his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church. But you say they converted I assume from the Syriac Orthodox Church to which Assyrians belong to but dont provide any source for that

3) That his family escaped famine in Syria. But you you claim there was famine during the Assyrian genocide without providing any source where Murray Abraham says his family escaped famine during the Assyrian genocide. Chris O' Hare (talk) 22:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commonwealth is reliable and there are tons of sources that state he is Assyrian. Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born. Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus#Demographics Henanton (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think if he wasn't Assyrian he would have come out and said so himself? Well he has never said he was Assyrian ever. All he has ever said himself is that his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria. Do you have a source where he himself states he is Assyrian or his fahter/grandfather was?

The new sources you added require payment just to see them and are not reliable. Two of the three sources (the two obituaries) do not require payment, and the other requires a free trial. Stop wasting my time by choosing to disregard or ignore the sources provided or saying that official documentation such as obituaries and WWII drafts are non reliable sources which makes you a disruptive user as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing.

Assyrians are part of all churches. We even have Assyrian Jews and Assyrian Muslims. Tons of Assyrians converted from the Church of the East to other churches. That argument holds no weight whatsoever. I also never stated his family converted churches. I stated that Assyrians belong to any church. Since when does belonging to a specific church determine your ethnicity? Anyone can join a church or convert to another religion so why do you keep bringing up his church? Then you need to provide a source where he himself says his family was Assyrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, otherwise you are just pushing your OR here. Murray Abraham as always said his family was Syrian that belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church, which is not surprising if they came from Muqlus in Wadi Al-Nasara.

There was famine during the Assyrian genocide. It is clearly stated on the Assyrian genocide page. You have one source that states his family fled due to famine but it says nothing about the famine of Mount Lebanon. Wikipedia uses facts not theories. But Murray Abraham himself has said his family escaped the famine in Syria (which is the same as the famine of Mount Lebanon which affected the area of Akkar/Wadi Al Nasara as well since its very close to the border with Lebanon in the north)

You keep adding unreliable sources like where his family was born Obituaries and WWII drafts are unreliable sources? This show you are not competent enough to be editing biographies then as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22?

Plenty of Assyrians in Syria live in Arab majority cities such as Damascus Then you need to provide a source where Murray Abraham says that is the case with his family which you have not violating WP:ORChris O' Hare (talk) 23:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You say his family belonged to the Antioach Greek Orthodox but in the source it states, "Yes, I'm a believer, a churchgoer. I started out in an Orthodox church, the same as the Russian and Greek Orthodox. It's Antiochian, and it is a little unforgiving". He does not state his paternal grandfather belonged to the Greek church. He only attended one in America. The Syriac Orthodox is also called Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East. If his grandfather belonged to the Greek Antioach then he would have said that. Also, the other source says his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syriac church is also called that as well and mentioned on the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church.
He probably never brought up Syriac because no one knows what Syriac means and would draw blank stares.
I also never said once that he converted. I said Assyrians convert all the time and there are Assyrians that are not Christian as well. You keep talking about your sources but they say nothing about him not being Assyrian.
The source you added states his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox church. That is another name for the Syriac Orthodox Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church
What do those obituaries even have to do with anything? His relatives being born in a small Christian village in Syria makes no difference here.
I don't need to provide a source saying Assyrian belonging to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church. Your own source states his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church, another name for the Syriac Orthodox Church as I posted above. He only attended the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church in America because there were no Syriac Churches where he lived. People attend different churches all the time. Syriac churches in America are incredibly rare.
Your source clearly states his family came to the United States to escape famine. It says abolutely nothing about the famine, or the famine of Mount Lebanon. There were many fmaines happening the middle east at that time, including for Assyrians.
A source that requires payment to see anything is not a reliable source. Those sources have nothing to do with this discussion and do not prove he is not Assyrians anyways.
Provide a source for him saying what exactly? All I said was Assyrians lived in majority Arab populated cities such as Damascus. You are the one who is trying to connect cities with his ethnicity. What city you come from has nothing to do with your ethnicity.
The reliable sources say he is Assyrian. You are also making stuff up and saying things that don't exist in your own sources. On Wikipedia we go by the sources. If a source exists saying he is an Arab Christian, or something else then you can add that. Henanton (talk) 00:25, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Henanton, sources that require payment are perfectly acceptable. See WP:PAYWALL. Sources that are not acceptable for this WP:BLP are familysearch, ancestry.com, and other public records such as have been linked above. Per WP:BLPPRIMARY we can never rely on such public records for assertions about living persons. Elizium23 (talk) 00:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Henanton

"He does not state his paternal grandfather belonged to the Greek church". Well his mother states his grandfather was a priest in Syria (not Assyria) so he must have belonged to the Greek church as well as can be read here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ You cant question or add doubt to what a reliable source says and add your own questioning and original research without providing a new source because that is a violating a per distortion of sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation" Since there is no reliable secondary source such as an independent academic review from a reputable genealogist such as lets say for example American genealogist Henry Louis Gates, then official documents, an autobiography and/or the oral or video recordings/interviews in reputable sources become the main sources in this until a reputable secondary source debates or questions it.

You have not added a reputable academic secondary source from an expert but a non-reliable source prone to mistakes such as Commonwealth Magazine which have not examined carefully the primary evidence and is very likely just repeating what they see in Wikipedia before which from my extensive research seem to have given Murray Assyrian descent by "misinterpreting" an article that says Murray belonged to the Syrian Orthodox Church and misinterpreted it as if the Syrian Orthodox Church is always the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church which is not case and also means the Antionchian Greek Orthodox Church.

"He only attended one in America". Says who? You? Where is your source for that? Because the El Paso Times source says his grandfather was a priest in Syria not Assyria.

"The Syriac Orthodox is also called Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East. If his grandfather belonged to the Greek Antioach then he would have said that". Stop asking me to cite that the sky is blue which also makes you disruptive user as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue If his grandfather and father belonged to the Syriac Orthodox Church and then Murray and his family converted to the Greek Orthodox Church (which is not the usual normal thing) he would have probably said that too which he has not. Since you have no souce for that that is your WP:OR.

"Also, the other source says his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Syriac church is also called that as well and mentioned on the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church". Yeah and so does the Greek Orthodox Church which is what Murray Abraham himself has stated his family belonged to. You keep going against what Murray Abraham himself has said about that and explicitly clarified with his own words.

"He probably never brought up Syriac because no one knows what Syriac means and would draw blank stares". This is your opinion, here in Wikipedia we dont care about opinions, we discuss sources only

"I said Assyrians convert all the time and there are Assyrians that are not Christian as well. You keep talking about your sources but they say nothing about him not being Assyrian". Just like there are no sources out there where he himself has stated he is Assyrian except non-reliable secondary sources that dont match up what the primary sources say.

"What do those obituaries even have to do with anything? His relatives being born in a small Christian village in Syria makes no difference here". Oh yes it does, along with him saying his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church, its another peace of evidence that confirms he is not Assyrian since Myklos is a town of like 500 people and there is no source that says there were any Assyrians in that small village during 1910-1916 when his father Fred was born there.

"He only attended the Antiochian Greek Orthodox church in America because there were no Syriac Churches where he lived. People attend different churches all the time. Syriac churches in America are incredibly rare". This is your own WP:OR not backed by any source where Murray Abraham himself says that.

"Your source clearly states his family came to the United States to escape famine. It says abolutely nothing about the famine, or the famine of Mount Lebanon. There were many fmaines happening the middle east at that time, including for Assyrians". In this source https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 It says and I quote "In fact, "F" stands for Fahrid, and the name Abraham is an Anglicization of Ibrahim, and his father was a Christian Syrian who emigrated with his family around 1920 because of famine. "Literally, a plague of locusts," the actor says. "It was biblical." A Syrian that escaped a plague of locusts he says, does that sound like the "famine during the Assyrian genocide" to you? The only famine due to a plague of locusts is the Famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. This did not affect the Assyrians/Assyrian Genocide.

"A source that requires payment to see anything is not a reliable source. Those sources have nothing to do with this discussion and do not prove he is not Assyrians anyways". Yes they are and yes they do, they very much prove he was not Assyrian. You are denying it because you are being disruptive

"Provide a source for him saying what exactly? All I said was Assyrians lived in majority Arab populated cities such as Damascus. You are the one who is trying to connect cities with his ethnicity. What city you come from has nothing to do with your ethnicity". Again, because Myklos is a small village of 500 people is very unlikely his family was Assyrian and settled there before emigrating to US. Because of that you need a source were Murray Abraham himself clarifies this unlikable event.

"The reliable sources say he is Assyrian". False, there are way more higher quality and primary sources that state his family was Syrian and belonged to the Greek Orthodox church so in reality you are giving undue weight to a secondary non-realiable source prone to mistakes/misinforming due to their lack of research/knowledge.Chris O' Hare (talk) 13:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chris O' Hare
Says who? You? Where is your source for that? Because the El Paso Times source says his grandfather was a priest in Syria not Assyria. Says the sources. They literally only state that he attended a church that is similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches and is Antioach and later switched Churches. Like I said, there are almost no Syriac churches in America today, let alone 100 years ago.
Stop asking me to cite that the sky is blue which also makes you disruptive user as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue If his grandfather and father belonged to the Syriac Orthodox Church and then Murray and his family converted to the Greek Orthodox Church (which is not the usual normal thing) he would have probably said that too which he has not. Since you have no souce for that that is your WP:OR. The source says Antioach which the Syriac church has in its name as well. Your sources do not say Greek which is literally your entire argument. That would be the equivalent of saying someone is part of an Orthodox church and then coming to the conclusion they are part of the Russian Orthodox when it could be any other orthodox church. Stop trying to slip the Greek part in there when nowhere does it say his grandfather was part of the Greek Antioach. All it says is Syrian Orthodox church. Here is a source that even states that the Syriac Orthodox Church is also referred to as the Syrian Orthodox Church. https://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/general-history/ "In Syriac, the proper name of the Church is `idto suryoyto treeysath shubho. In the past, the name of the Church had been translated to English as “Syrian Orthodox Church”. The Holy Synod of the Church approved the translation “Syriac Orthodox Church” in its session of March 28-April 3, 2000."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Syriac-Orthodox-Patriarchate-of-Antioch-and-All-the-East "In 2000 the Syrian Orthodox Church adopted its present name, which contains the word Syriac in order to distinguish itself from the Syrian Catholic Church."
https://www.oikoumene.org/member-churches/syrian-orthodox-patriarchate-of-antioch-and-all-the-east
https://syriacorthodoxresources.org/
https://folkways.si.edu/syrian-orthodox-church-antioch-liturgy/world/music/album/smithsonian "According to ethnomusicologist Christian Poche, the Syrian Orthodox Church (also known as the Syriac Orthodox Church in English-speaking countries since 2000) is one of the oldest Christian churches of the Middle East. Founded in Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria (and now Antakya, Turkey), the church’s followers carried their beliefs throughout the Middle East and to the western coast of India"
Yeah and so does the Greek Orthodox Church which is what Murray Abraham himself has stated his family belonged to. You keep going against what Murray Abraham himself has said about that and explicitly clarified with his own words. No it is not referred to as the Syrian Orthodox Church. Every source states that Syrian Orthodox Church also means Syriac Orthodox Church and was changed in the year 2000, not Greek Antioach. He said they attended a church which is similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches. He also said it's Antioach. He doesn't even state it was specifically a Greek Antioach. Not that it would even matter since right after he says he left the church and became a Protestant which completely supports my argument in that you can switch your church denomination at any time just like he did.
This is your opinion, here in Wikipedia we dont care about opinions, we discuss sources only The source says he started off in a church that was Antioach which is in his own words, "the same as" the Russian and Greek Orthodox. Why did he say the same as instead of just saying Greek Antioach? Yes we discuss facts which clearly state his grandfather is Syrian Orthodox also known as Syriac Orthodox Church which I already provided a source for but I could give you a lot more if you want. And it is also a fact that the names Greek and Russian are more well known than Syriac. This man is clearly an American and his ancestors assimilated and is half Assyrian so he isn't going to care too much about his lineage.
Just like there are no sources out there where he himself has stated he is Assyrian except non-reliable secondary sources that dont match up what the primary sources say. The sources clearly state his grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which is another name for Syriac Orthodox Church. This alone ends the argument.
Oh yes it does, along with him saying his family belonged to the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church, its another peace of evidence that confirms he is not Assyrian since Myklos is a town of like 500 people and there is no source that says there were any Assyrians in that small village during 1910-1916 when his father Fred was born there. Why do you keep making things up? His paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church also known as Syriac Orthodox Church after the year 2000, not Greek Antioach. The source you gave which was in his own words said he started off in a church that was Antioach and similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox. That is it. Stop adding things that aren't there.
This is your own WP:OR not backed by any source where Murray Abraham himself says that. The source clearly states Syrian Orthodox Church which was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000.
In this source https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 It says and I quote "In fact, "F" stands for Fahrid, and the name Abraham is an Anglicization of Ibrahim, and his father was a Christian Syrian who emigrated with his family around 1920 because of famine. "Literally, a plague of locusts," the actor says. "It was biblical." A Syrian that escaped a plague of locusts he says, does that sound like the "famine during the Assyrian genocide" to you? The only famine due to a plague of locusts is the Famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. This did not affect the Assyrians/Assyrian Genocide. Like I said, Assyrians lived everywhere and this proves absolutely nothing. Not every Assyrian lived in Mardin, or Hakkari. If his grandfather truly was Lebanese like you're trying to push, then he would be part of the Maronite Church. The famine of Mount Lebanon affected Maronites.
Yes they are and yes they do, they very much prove he was not Assyrian. You are denying it because you are being disruptive No they do not and someone else already stated your sources are not reliable. Regardless, your own source says he was part of the Syriac Orthodox Church.
Again, because Myklos is a small village of 500 people is very unlikely his family was Assyrian and settled there before emigrating to US. Because of that you need a source were Murray Abraham himself clarifies this unlikable event. No that's not how wikipedia works. It doesn't matter which village he's from. You can be Assyrian and be from anywhere. You need a source that says he is not Assyrian or a source that says he is another ethnicity, which you don't have.
False, there are way more higher quality and primary sources that state his family was Syrian and belonged to the Greek Orthodox church so in reality you are giving undue weight to a secondary non-realiable source prone to mistakes/misinforming due to their lack of research/knowledge Your own source says he's part of the Syriac Church. Also, Syrian is a nationality, not an ethnicity. There are many ethnic groups from Syria. Ethnicities are Assyrian, Arab, Armenian, etc.
There is no point of discussing this any further. The sources say his paternal grandfather fled due to famine (says nothing about Mount Lebanon), and that his grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000 and I provided many sources for that and can provide many more. Also the sources say he started off in a church similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox and that it is Antioach. That is it. So we should add what's in the sources. Not extrapolate to fit our agenda. Henanton (talk) 19:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Henanton

"Your sources do not say Greek which is literally your entire argument" In the El Paso source here https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ it states that Murray Abraham and his brother were altar boys in the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church near their home in El Paso. You can read in the obituary of his aunt the family belonged to the St. George's Antiochian Orthodox Church in El Paso. Tx https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yzB8XaGnM5YJ:https://oklahoman.com/article/2239025/marion-abraham-unsell+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se

In the St. George’s Antiochian Orthodox Church of El Paso, Texas website here https://www.stgeorge-elpaso.org/ you can read it says "St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America located in El Paso, TX". You can read in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America wikipage here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America where it says and I quote "the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch in the United States"

The sources say his paternal grandfather fled due to famine (says nothing about Mount Lebanon), and that his grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000 and I provided many sources for that and can provide many more. Also the sources say he started off in a church similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox and that it is Antioach.

You keep on playing with words and ignore the evidence in most of the reliable sources. The only thing you have is your argument that in one source it is said his family belongs to the Syrian Orthodox Church which according to you its a sure thing its referring to the Syriac Orthodox church since it starting meaning the same in 2000.

The information I provided you about the St. George Antiochian church the family belongs to clearly makes it a Antiochian Greek Orthodox church not a Syriac Orthodox one. And in the 2016 interview here (Murray states he is 77 years old in that interview) https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php he refers to his church as Antiochian Orthodox which today is also known as the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Antioch as you can read in its wikipage. Why didnt he refer to it as Syriac Orthodox in 2016 which is its current name since 2000 as you say and as can be read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church?

You keep on claiming that his father was Assyrian. Then how come he has always said himself his father was Syrian and emigrated from Syria as can be seen in https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/personality/personality/actor-f-murray-abraham-syrian-refugees-and-de-blasios-new-york.html, https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php https://eu.elpasotimes.com/story/news/history/blogs/tales-from-the-morgue/2008/07/10/mom-recalls-boyhood-of-st/31510153/ confirmed as well by the two obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father? How come he himself has never said his family was Assyrian in any of his interviews?

You keep saying that the famine he refers to is not the famine of Mount Lebanon, when he said that the famine his family flew from was due to a plague of locusts here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469 and the only famine caused by a plague of locusts during those years was the famine of Mount Lebanon as can be read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_Ottoman_Syria_locust_infestation. In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_Mount_Lebanon it says and I quote "Some of the areas hit with no documentation include Tyre, Zahle, Akkar & Bint Jbeil". The area of Akkar in northern Lebanon and Wadi Al-Nasara where Myklos is in todays Syria were both one region and Wadi Al-Nasara split from Akkar only after the creation of Greater Lebanon in 1920 as you can read in the 4th last paragraph here https://www.dailystar.com.lb/GetArticleBody.aspx?id=270679&fromgoogle=1, so no the famine of Mount Lebanon did not only affect the Maronites but pretty much everyone in the area.

If you keep distorting what the most reliable sources says and adding your own original research and stating your opinions or seriously contested assertions as facts without adding new sources violating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view I will be reporting you for disruption.Chris O' Hare (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Elizium23

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary official government documents such as birth/marriage/death certificates as well as obituaries can be used as reliable sources for biographies, except things like trial transcripts (which familyseach does not provide) and documents that reveal private matters such as the date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources

Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies also as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources Since Murray Abraham has already mentioned his father emigrated from Syria, using obituaries of his aunts and the WWII draft of his father as primary sources to augment those secondary sources where Murray Abraham says that is acceptable.

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research". In situation like this one regarding Murray Abraham's paternal origins, using official documentation to add further clarification about the matter is allowed.

Also as per As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided". All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors".

Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide official documents from the National Archives that add valuable information in cases like this where secondary questionable sources floating around the internet contradict sources that state what the person in question and his family has said about his/their origins/ethnicity. Other things in sites like Familysearch and Ancestry.com such as user generated content (family trees created by users for example) are obviously not reliable but you cant say everything in those sites is not allowed in Wikipedia.Chris O' Hare (talk) 14:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chris O' Hare, per WP:BLPPRIMARY, Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. Elizium23 (talk) 15:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An obituary is a WP:PRIMARY source. I would be extremely hesitant to use it in a BLP such as this. Elizium23 (talk) 16:48, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium23

It says "exercise extreme caution in using primary sources", it does not say do not use primary sources at all.

It says "do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person". "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources "specific facts may be taken from primary sources"

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them"

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source "A primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study. It serves as an original source of information about the topic"

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#History "In contexts such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources and that "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"

The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing.

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Finding_primary_sources "Although many primary sources remain in private hands, others are located in archives, libraries, museums, historical societies, and special collections".

Familysearch and Ancestry.com provide access of official documents found in the National Archives and the ones I have used do not reveal "personal details, such as date of birth of the person in the article, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses" but information about deceased members of the family of the person.

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses "In many fields and contexts, such as historical writing, it is almost always advisable to use primary sources if possible, and "if none are available, it is only with great caution that [the author] may proceed to make use of secondary sources"

Again, The family history of a person's biography falls within the field of historical writing. Chris O' Hare (talk) 16:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which Orthodox Church[edit]

I think it is fairly clear that Abraham's grandfather was of the Syriac Orthodox Church, as the source states. But when they immigrated to these United States, they became members of an Eastern Orthodox Church, the Antiochian one. So it isn't at all the same communion which they left behind. I think it is a disservice to readers to leave them with the ambiguous "Orthodox Church" when the sources are crystal clear about what types they joined. Elizium23 (talk) 20:31, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hello, Can you please provide the sources or excerpt that states this, the ones provided do not mention syriac just antiochian. As you are aware per WP:NOR we cannot stipulate things that are not in sources provided.

"I started out in an Orthodox church, the same as the Russian and Greek Orthodox. It's Antiochian"[1]

JJNito197 (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JJNito197, here it says Abraham's paternal grandfather had been a chanter in the Syrian Orthodox Church, one who calls the locals to prayer with his singing. Elizium23 (talk) 20:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but this was my issue; you cant infer that this automatically means syriac orthodox, syrian orthodox can mean both, especially in a western context where the plurality of different sects is confusing- "syrian orthodox" is ambigious to the intiated, not the uninitiated. Syrian Orthodox =/= Syriac Orthodox JJNito197 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
JJNito197, uh, no, I am not sure what "both" you are referring to, but I assure you that it is not ambiguous. Please furnish reliable secondary sources as evidence of ambiguity if you wish to convince us of your claim. Elizium23 (talk) 20:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]


If you have a source that states Syriac sure. The burden of proof is on you? Syrian Orthodox can refer to both in the western context. JJNito197 (talk) 20:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
JJNito197, why is the burden of proof on me? What in the world are you talking about with "both"? You haven't mentioned any other church except the Syriac Orthodox! Elizium23 (talk) 20:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to assume its talking about the Syriac Orthodox church, provide the source that says this. Syrian orthodox can mean both in the western context, especially to the uninitiated. JJNito197 (talk) 21:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium23 Sorry, Greek Orthodox or Syriac Orthodox JJNito197 (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
JJNito197, so despite your refusal to explain wtf you're talking about, I've looked into it more. The cathedral that Abraham attended as a boy in Pittsburgh has a website, and it makes reference to the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America which is unambiguously Greek/Eastern Orthodox (Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch). This is of course sometimes confused with the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, because it is also based in Syria.
So yes, you are correct, it appears that they were never members of the Syriac Orthodox Church. I think it is unambiguously clear that they have been Greek Orthodox all along (and Abraham himself mentioned that his faith is like Greek/Russian).
So there is no need to leave the ambiguous "Orthodox Church" in the article, we can specify exactly which church the family belongs to. Elizium23 (talk) 21:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I guess. It was obvious what I meant in my edit summary which started this thread. JJNito197 (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It clearly states Syrian Orthodox Church which I have already proven means Syriac Orthodox Church. F. Murray Abraham himself never stated his paternal grandfather was part of the Greek Antioach. All he said was he started off in a church that was similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox and it was Antioach. Why would he even say its similar to, and bring up Russian Orthodox and not just say his paternal grandfather was Greek Antioach? It makes no sense whatsoever and you are completely changing what the source says. It says Syrian Orthodox Church and you can even search on google for yourself. Every single source says it is the Syriac Orthodox Church. It was literally the name of the Syriac Church prior to the year 2000 and his paternal grandfather was a priest prior to the year 2000. Why would they call it by its modern name? Usually you refer to the old name for when that person was alive. Do you say Ashurbanipal was born in Iraq or do you say he was born in Assyria? You would say Assyria. The Greek Antioach has never and is not referred to as Syrian Orthodox. The word Greek is always used when referring to that church. You need to stop reverting it because the source clearly states Syrian Orthodox Church. You are breaking Wikipedia rules. Henanton (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Henanton, the Syriac Orthodox Church, being Oriental Orthodox, is not similar to the Russian or Greek churches. It is a completely different communion. An adherent of Oriental Orthodoxy would not be likely to compare his faith with that of schismatics/heretics.
St. George's Antiochian Orthodox Church in El Paso is clearly Greek Orthodox (although I got the location wrong in my prior post) and it is not Oriental Orthodox. The source mentioning the Syrian Orthodox Church is merely ambiguous due to the fact that the Greek Antiochian Church is headquartered in Syria. Elizium23 (talk) 21:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium23, obviously F. Murray Abraham isn't a specialist in Churches. Most people cannot explain the exact beliefs of the churches they attend. They just know the basics and that they adhere to Christianity. Why would he say that he started off in a church similar to a Russian and Greek Orthodox? Why not just say I started off as Greek Antioach instead of bringing up Russian Orthodox and saying it's similar to Russian and Greek? It makes no sense. He was saying that it's similar in that all three of them are called Orthodox. But didn't go into detail because no one in America knows what Syriac means so instead just said it's similar to Russian and Greek Orthodox and that it's Antioach as a short and simple way of explaining it. Also, the Greek Antioach is never referred to as Syrian Orthodox Church. Greek is always used. We have to go by sources and it clearly says Syrian Orthodox Church which is the previous name of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Henanton (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Henanton, WP:OR Elizium23 (talk) 22:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Elizium23, WP:OR does not apply here. The source states Syrian Orthodox Church for his paternal grandfather. Why would you say his grandfather was Greek Antioach if the source doesn't say that? He said he attended a Church in Texas and then switched and became Protestant. Nothing about his grandfather being part of the Greek Antioach. Henanton (talk) 22:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Henanton Hello, firstly I understand your passionate defence of the assyrian cause, however the syrian orthodox church can easily be used likewise for the greek orthodox population in syria- moreso in the western context. For example, to state your greek orthodox not syrian orthodox to the uninitiated (or unaware) in the west can be assumed a greek origin, not syrian. Although this has changed in recent times, it was not uncommon historically. The majority of other sources make it clear the greek orthodox church of antioch played an important role in F. Murray Abrahams life. This being said, the evidence you have for Abraham belonging to the syriac church is not as strong as you are making out. If there is another source that states syriac or assyrian please show us. JJNito197 (talk) 22:07, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
JJNito197 Hi. Honestly, all we need to do is look at his own words. He said he started off in a church similar to the Russian and Greek Orthodox. Why would he even state that? Why would he say similar to Russian and Greek? Why bring up Russian? He could have just said I started off Greek Antioach. Instead he said similar to Russian and Greek, and it is Antioach. Why say all that instead of just saying Greek Antioach? He clearly avoided saying Syriac because almost no one in America knows what Syriac is or means or even what an Assyrian is. It would have caused a lot of confusion. But he said it's similar to Russian and Greek Orthodox because people are familiar with those churches and the names Russian and Greek. Yes I know he was part of the Greek Antioach in Texas. But he also switched churches later on so that doesn't really prove anything. There were no Syriac churches in Texas back then and even know there are only a handful in America so he didn't have a choice but to attend another church.The only thing we have on his paternal grandfather is that he was a priest in the Syrian Orthodox Church, another name for Syriac Orthodox Church. The change of names was very recent and throughout all of the 1900s Syrian Orthodox was always the name of the church for Syriac Assyrians. There aren't even that many sources about his background because he rarely talks about it, which is the case for most immigrants to Americans. His ancestors came to America to for a better life and to assimilate. But even his last name Abraham is a very common Assyrian last name. What's also interesting is that he has never once stated he is an Arab. Syrian Christians always refer to themselves as Arabs. Henanton (talk) 22:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Henanton I do not belong to said church, but the 'Greek' prefix was never a part of my families identity—- it would not be uncommon for them to say they descend from Syrian/Lebanese/Arab Orthodox to people who are not aware of the multi-ethnic/religious nature of the Levant; but are aware enough of the extent of the Orthodox church.
I admit I do not know of the intricacies of such matters, but I do know like Assyrians, the arab identity was forced on the native Syrian christian population, and although many did embrace it, not all syrian Greek-Orthodox refer to themselves soley as arab- see also Antiochian Greek Christians. Either way, please keep researching if there is any evidence of his syriac heritage, Its not my perogative to erase any bodies culture or ethnic roots, just to make sure sources are accurate and reflect the truth. JJNito197 (talk) 22:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on ethnicity[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is unanimous consensus that F. Murray Abraham's article should not state that he is Assyrian due to no WP:RS. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:42, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should F. Murray Abraham's article state that he is Assyrian? Henanton (talk) 00:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • No. There appears to be no direct WP:RS evidence of self-identification. Elizium23 (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No in the absence of a reliable source to that effect. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Because he is Syrian Christian per F. Murray Abraham himself, who has stated in the AARP article that he wrote himself that he is "Syrian Christian" and in the New York Times article states, that he also wrote, that "We are proud Syrian-Americans"; [2][3] the man associates himself with Syrian, not Assyrian causes; his self-identification is crystal clear. How many articles of self-identification written by the subject himself, do we need? The overwhelming majority of online sources state that his family is from Syria. The root source of this "Assyrian" ancestry stems from the Assyrian blog. George Al-Shami (talk) 03:52, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The source clearly states that his paternal grandfather was part of the Syrian Orthodox Church which I've already proven is the same as the Syriac Orthodox Church. Henanton (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the wiki page of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the last sentence of the first paragraph of section Name and Identity it says (with source) and I quote "Since 1922, the term "Syrian" started being used for things named after the Syrian Federation. Hence, in 2000, the Holy Synod ruled that the church be named as "Syriac Orthodox Church" after the Syriac language, the official liturgical language of the church." which is the angle with which you want to keep shouting Assyrian here and everywhere.

The article that mentions his grandfather was a chanter in the Syrian Orthodox Church is from 2007 as can be seen here https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469. So how come it doesnt say his grandfather was a chanter in the Syriac Orthodox Church since by then in 2007 the church was already going by the name Syriac Orthodox Church to detach itself from the Syrian association (as in today's Syria) and therefore not confuse readers? Oh wait, I already know your answer: your going to say well back in 1910 when he was a chanter it was called the Syrian Orthodox Church. With disruptive editors like you no evidence and no amount of sources will ever be enough.

The only thing you "have" and want to manipulate to push your POV is your play of words and interpretations. Now you have taken your disruption and incompetence to do the same with Terrence Malick's article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Terrence_Malick&action=history. You will be reported as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22?Chris O' Hare (talk) 17:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They don't say Syriac because when his father was in the church it was called Syrian Orthodox Church. I will not add Assyrian to his article but I will add that his paternal grandfather was part of the Syriac Orthodox Church. If you revert it you will likely be blocked. The source says Syrian Orthodox Church which was the old name of the Syriac Orthodox Church. End of story. You say we go by facts on wikipedia but instead you put his paternal grandfather was part of the Greek Antioach when it says no such thing. Also, Terrence Malicks parents are Assyrians from Urmia which is in Iran. There are ZERO Lebanese people living there and his father was 100% Assyrian and Urmia still has tons of Assyrians living in it and even the name Urmia is Assyrian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henanton (talk • contribs) 18:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No There is no reliable source for that fact. Sea Ane (talk) 19:03, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No . Couldnt find any source linking him to being Assyrian. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No After an extensive search, I have found no reliable sources to support that he is Assyrian. If there are reliable sources to support this, I would be open to viewing them but after viewing the comments so far, it does not appear that such a source exists. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

  1. ^ https://www.theamerican.co.uk/pr/rev-int-F-Murray-Abraham.php
  2. ^ Abraham, F. Murray. "How Actor F. Murray Abraham Is Helping Syrian Refugees". AARP. Retrieved 1 June 2021.
  3. ^ Abraham, F. Murray (2017-04-10). "Opinion | F. Murray Abraham: Open Our Doors to Syrians". The New York Times. Retrieved 1 June 2021.

RfC on which church F. Murray Abraham's paternal grandfather was a priest in[edit]

Was F. Murray Abraham's paternal grandfather a priest in the:

A. Syriac Orthodox Church

OR

B. Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch Henanton (talk) 06:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the source stating his paternal grandfather was a priest in the Syrian Orthodox Church https://web.archive.org/web/20070304121511/http://www.backstage.com/bso/news_reviews/features/feature_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003546469
Here are just some sources stating that Syrian Orthodox Church was the name of the Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the year 2000 which is when F. Murray Abraham's paternal grandfather was alive
https://syriacorthodoxresources.org/Pub/BrockHPearl/index.html
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Syriac-Orthodox-Patriarchate-of-Antioch-and-All-the-East
https://www.oikoumene.org/member-churches/syrian-orthodox-patriarchate-of-antioch-and-all-the-east
https://folkways.si.edu/syrian-orthodox-church-antioch-liturgy/world/music/album/smithsonian
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250227702_After_the_Ottomans_The_Renewal_of_the_Syrian_Orthodox_Church_in_the_Twentieth_and_Twenty-First_Centuries_1
You can also search, "Syrian Orthodox Church" on google and see that all the sources and results show that it was the old name of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Henanton (talk) 07:07, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • C. Exclude entirely. Per @GorillaWarfare:, it seems to me that this trivial detail about someone who is not F. Murray is not suitable for his BLP. Even more so, because it is contentious. I say just leave out the specifics entirely, and move on. Elizium23 (talk) 14:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agre with this entirely. The effort devoted to this detail has been totally out of proportion. DGG ( talk ) 18:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the originating editor's account has been globally locked as a WikiMedia office action. Move to snow close in favor of proposed removal. Elizium23 (talk) 18:12, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to change the photo[edit]

It would be nice to change the photo 23.171.224.128 (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Needs update on personal life and infobox[edit]

According to a notice published in the New York Times, his wife died on November 19, 2022: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/nytimes/name/kate-abraham-obituary?id=38206466 73.37.46.243 (talk) 10:33, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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