Talk:Eurofighter Typhoon

UK numbers usable

User:Mark83, noted your revert here: [[1]], hence WP:BRD (though the added information wasn't really that B). So:

1. Is the information encyclopedic? I think this is accepted.

2. Is the information correct? I don't know, but a RS says it is. Can another editor shed any light?

3. The removed material is from a standard WP:RS, but in this instance you believe the source is wrong. Can you prove it, or are you arguing that the claim is WP:EXCEPTIONAL? I assume that it is not that you WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT?

With all respect, Springnuts (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Number usable is not really of any encyclopedic value all fleets will have some aircraft in maintenance, short term or long term storage, it is not something we normally include in these articles. MilborneOne (talk) 17:34, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to set out your concerns here. On 1. - agreed.

2 and 3 are related. As I put in the edit summary I find the Daily Telegraph to be a good source normally, and have used it many times for other defence related topics. It's fair to raise WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. In answer I am happy to state I do not have strong feelings on this article overall, or this specific issue, nor do I have any conflict of interest (not asked, but just for the record). I do however have concerns about the accuracy and objectivity of the cited article and therefore on the potential to mislead readers of this article. As well as the comments on Typhoons the article has some falsehoods and many many gross oversimplications. But to focus on the issue at hand:

The article states "The RAF, too, is pitiably run down. Its main ability to make war today resides in just one combat jet, the disastrous Eurofighter Typhoon. This plane is so expensive to operate that just 98 of the 160 purchased are potentially flyable." So let's leave aside the fact that the author's contempt is blatant here. But just on the facts this is a gross oversimplification. In contrast, read this analysis from the Royal United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies:

" "On serviceability rates, the RAF is well within the top cohort of air forces around the world," Bronk said. "Modern combat aircraft are complex and maintenance intensive to operate," ...adding that "a regular deep maintenance/upgrade cycle for each airframe" is a standard fleet-management practice around the world. Having 55 of the service's 156 Typhoons in sustainment is normal, Bronk added, "and actually better than most comparable fleets in NATO and elsewhere."[2]

So if you are keen on including this "sustainment" vs "active" ratio, then in the interests of providing the full context you'd need to find and include the comparable servicability rates of all the other operators of the Typhoon? Germany has been reported as having much worse serviceability, e.g. [3] It would also be necessary to provide the context that this active vs sustainment number is a common measure. The author misrepresents it as unique to the RAFs Typhoons because in his view its a "disastrous" aircraft. Mark83 (talk) 17:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Hardly unique to have aircraft on maintenance, modification programmes, short or long-term storage, it would be of note if they were all flyable, again not really noteworthy for inclusion. 19:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Also note the total fleet figures are way out in the business insider source as well, the RAF has just over 130 Typhoons so that makes the percentages generated wrong. MilborneOne (talk) 19:57, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you. Mark83 (talk) 19:59, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that no fleet will have 100% serviceability, but what is noteworthy is the number of aircraft which are "in active fleet management, which can include aircraft in storage (to preserve airframe hours)" but excluding aircraft which are in the process of being disposed of. That information is available, so I will have a look and update the article accordingly, if indeed it is not up to date. Springnuts (talk) 22:46, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Updated - 101 in service (out of 139 total - which from the note in the table includes aircraft which "are in the process of being disposed of"). Springnuts (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Can any editor find a RS for what happened to the balance of 21 which have been disposed of, and what is the state of the 38 which are in the process of being disposed of? Springnuts (talk) 09:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

While we wait for reliable source, FYI some have been canaballised for parts, [4] Mark83 (talk) 09:48, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

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