Talk:Ellalan/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Question

This article presents that Elara was an acatual king but he is known only from Mahavamsa and there are secondary sources that cliam that

  • 1. He may have been fictious creation all along as it was written down 700 years after his supposed death.
  • 2. If he were real then he may have not been an invader but a local usurper of throne that too a Hindu

So we have a lot to do to improve this article rather than to prsent this Monarch as a real person when we dont have any evidence to it in India (where he is supposed to have come from) or Sri Lanka (epighraphic to support the literray source) 16:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Taprobanus (talk • contribs)

Interesting (and valid) concern. I always took it for granted that Elara is not just found in Mahavamsa but a well documented in other sources as well. Your comments is food for thought. Ritigala Jayasena (talk) 15:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
On top of it the existance of the Early Cholas that early in history (that is the time frame of Elara) is being questioned by mainstream historians. So Mahvamas actually provides evidence of early chols but it is still only literry evidence not actual. Taprobanus (talk) 21:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Invader

To Sembiyan,

You can not say present day Tamils in Sri Lanka are related to Elara, he happened over two thousand years ago and the only proper evidence on him is the Mahavamsa, and as discussed above there is hardly any evidence on him from India as well. I never said that he came alone or any of the absurd things you mentioned. He was a person from present day India who came to present day Sri Lanka and usurped the throne, becoming ruler, hence he is an invader. And please do not include your POV statements such as "Although he was an outsider with respect to the authors of Mahavamsa". I hope you understand and good luck for the future.--Blackknight12 (talk) 07:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

On what basis are you saying that present day tamils in SL are not related? Sembiyan (talk) 02:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Sembiyan Actually, Vijaya is an invader as well, because he came from " Present day India". I don't really understand why are these people so interested in wiping away the history of Tamils.

Name change

The real name is Elara, not Elalan. If he were real, then may be he had a tamil name; but we are not sure of it. Taprobanus (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I moved back some of these pages that were disruptive moves -- no consensus for the change in title. -SpacemanSpiff 23:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Elara (235 BC - 161 BC), also known as Elalan, or Élaezha Chola, was a Tamil king who ruled Sri Lanka from 205 BC to 161 BC from the ancient capital of Anuradhapura.

He was a tamil King, why you call him in a sinhalized name "Elara" ? The tamil pronunciation is "Elalan", I request to change the name in Elalan.--Tamilstyle (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

He is most commonly known as Elara.--Blackknight12 (talk) 15:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see this--Blackknight12 (talk) 04:05, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
The word Elara is also found in Greek mythology and is a name of a Jupiter moon. Thats, why the name Elara is more famous than Ellalan. I think the page name Elara (monarch) should be changed appropriate to Ellalan or Manu Neethi Chola.--Vatasura (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

User Blackknight12, I have moved the page title going by the point raised by User:Vatasura. I assume inadequate response/lack of response(as in your case) as a ground for consensus, and have moved the page accordingly as directed in the conversation. If you have a genuine reason to revert, please clarify why here before you do so rather than blaming me for unilateral behavior.

Multiple existing sources within the article suggest Elara is a corruption of the Tamil name Ellalan who was a Chola King. Also please clarify on what grounds does the Google Books NGram tool becomes a norm for naming articles(especially since there exist multiple entities with the same name;and you cannot connote a search for more than one word, For example in this case - Hits for "Manu Needhi Chola"). Thank you. --CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 15:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Tamil script of Elara.

Why was rhe Tamil script of "Ellaalan" (எல்லாளன்) removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.134.74.110 (talk) 07:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

You are a sock who has hurled incredibly rude slurs at me, but I will reply anyway: WP:INDICSCRIPTS. Ogress smash! 23:41, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Hello Ogress, can you add it under the name of the king on the top right box? I would really appreciate that.175.157.220.11 (talk) 01:01, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
No. You are a sockpuppet and abusive. Stop talking to me. Ogress smash! 01:28, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, how are you so sure enough to assert this? Wikipedia is NOT the place to hold grudges; see WP:AGF, and definitely not the place to abuse your power by preventing constructive edits like this (if you have write access / lock privileges) based on your personal problems. And, WP:DGAF. Moreover, what you are doing, is bad to Wikipedia.175.157.244.74 (talk) 05:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
@Ogress
Oh, I have seen the previous edit; if you are claiming that I am a sockpuppet then you are racist, because you KNEW that it could be written using Tamil script under his name on that top-left box in Latin script, but you removed it anyway. 175.157.244.74 (talk) 06:00, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
It is one thing to assert that an editor's actions do not follow the letter or spirit of AGF, but it is another thing to accuse the editor of being a racist. I'm going to remind the IP in particular to focus on the edits, not the editors. This discussion should address whether the Tamil-script text should be added to the infobox per Wikipedia guidelines, including the sitewide Manual of Style, project-specific manuals of style, and the effects of requests for comments (which Ogress references at WP:INDICSCRIPTS. —C.Fred (talk) 14:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Said user has referred to me with many explicit slurs and is a sockpuppet; don't bother responding. This page was protected because of his deleterious editing and many of his IP socks banned for personal attacks. Ogress smash! 21:41, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I think we need a range block here.  Philg88 ♦talk 09:50, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

@C.Fred, Philg88: I am not a sockpuppet, these are IP ranges from Sri Lanka and I am from Sri Lanka. And, she removed my responses on my page; I never thought that just having a user account gives them the privilege of removing IP edits without a reason, on a Talk Page. Wikipedia has a NOTHEARING policy too, as far as I remember.

@Philg88: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/175.157.245.185#21_July_2015 I'm tired of personal attacks and threats. "Make this edit and I'll stop" needs a strong response and there's a huge backlog at SI. Ogress smash! 09:56, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
@Ogress It is not make this edit and I stop; It is just that you are undoing edits for YOUR personal reasons; if you want to remove this section, then it should have been addressed.

Philg88: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEllalan_%28monarch%29&type=revision&diff=672707949&oldid=672707707 see there. And, see WP:HEAR. And, she should stop removing constructive arguments against her edit. See her edit history. The concern raised by the section is legitimate. Oops, I think the IP changes while I reconnect; the edits on this page are done by single user, though. It was because of convenience of not having to create an account, not because of intentional sockpuppetry.unsigned comment by IP

  • Cool down IPs, don't harass anyone, as admins are saying, you should talk about content and not about editors. Moreover, I have added Tamil script in infobox, I think there is no problem in adding it in infobox as WP:INDICSCRIPT is restricted to lead and we already have numerous articles mentioning "native name" in infobox. --Human3015 knock knock • 10:28, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)That's funny, because it seems to happen when you get blocked for abusive behavior. Ogress smash! 10:29, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
@Human3015 Oops, thanks, now I understand. But how do I warn a user about disruptive edits?
or, suggest them?
@Ogress, Human3015: Thanks, whoever added that section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.157.206.168 (talk) 10:46, 23 July 2015‎ (UTC)

"Elara"

@Blackknight12: So you want to move a page. Is it uncontroversial? Okay. Then you should discuss at talk and/or file at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial using the template {{subst:Requested move|NewName|reason=Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please present Google Books or Google News Archive results before providing other web results. Do not sign this.|talk=yes}}

This is how you move a page when it is not appropriate to be bold. You really want to make an argument for a move, you need to tell us why you want to move it and you need to do it properly. Full disclosure: I have reported you to ANI for flagrant page move edit warring. I am also pretty angry you pulled what appears to be a stunt move. However, I will discuss this issue properly, I will abide by consensus, and I will even draw you a map. You have not even bothered to tell us why you want to move the page. If you want to, this is the way to do it. Ogress smash! 10:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

title

The article title in its present form (Ellalan) is incorrect and has been moved unilaterally and without discussion. Elara is the most common name for this article, which the article has been known by for most of its existence. It is also very important to know that though a Tamil, Elara is mostly known through a Sinhalese context. ie. he was king in the Sinhalese monarchy in a Sinhalese kingdom and he is mostly known though Sinhalese sources. Furthermore it is by far the most common and relevant name, see comparision here. Google results also reflect this. "Elara 'King'" returns 244,000 hits, "Elara monarch" returns 49,400, 'Elara Sri Lanka" 39, 600, while "Ellalan" returns 84, 100, most of which do not even related to this article. A Google Books search also returns more for Elara with 64, 500 hits and only 1360 hits for Ellalan. It is pretty clear what the title should be.--Blackknight12 (talk) 07:48, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Moving back The move was made after your loss of words in this discussion. Your comparison has already been refuted in the preceding discussion, and it is very nice to see how you change the title evading it, and claim the article title was unilaterally moved. All your other claims for the move constitute just another bunch of WP:OR which I will overlook for the time being.--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 08:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Clearly it was not! And you were no where near the discussion. Check the history and see for yourself the unilateral move that you yourself made!--Blackknight12 (talk) 08:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
How dare you move this page without discussing it - and for blatantly nationalistic reasons. There literally was just an edit war on this page about the name and you come and just move the page? Ogress smash! 08:18, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, how would you know this was a nationalistic move? I would regard that as a personal attack! You know nothing about me. I invite you to discuss as I have clearly given my reasons above and have stated that the previous move (before the last few reverts today) was also done without discussion unilaterally. Neither was the editor in question apart of that discussion. I have presented fact, do not go about accusing me of being nationalistic while it is clear others are.--Blackknight12 (talk) 08:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Going by your ridiculous edit summaries/talk messages I am sorry to assume as such but I suppose you must be either you must be stone blind, or outright idiotic in your attempt to push your POV. I have clearly outlined the preceding discussion's link..--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 08:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Copperchloride you have already been warned about your personal attacks and I will not stand for it any more. My mistake it seems you were apart of it. Pardon me for thinking otherwise as for you are not the one to discuss an issue. I will not revert but I will start a new discussion to move. That does not excuse you from you POV pushing--Blackknight12 (talk) 08:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Blackknight12 You do not unilaterally move a page in the wake of an edit war without any discussion and then "invite" me and other editors to "discuss". That is the opposite of consensus, that is bad-faith editing and I do not even understand how you could be on Wikipedia for one year, nevermind since 2008, without understanding this basic principle. How do I know it's nationalism? Because you keep insisting, without evidence, that a Tamil king's page should be moved to the Sinhala version of his name right after a user was banned for sockpuppetting to make that very edit. Because it is apparently important to you to change it without evidence, without discussion, and I see you attempted this same manoeuvre five years ago. You'd better self-revert before this becomes an admin issue over your exceedingly inappropriate behavior. Was this why you wanted me to email you? To gain support through a whisper campaign? I struggled and failed to find a good-faith understanding of the situation you have caused. Ogress smash! 09:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Blackknight12 In regards to your statement about why you moved, "and has been moved unilaterally and without discussion" - the chutzpah that you could conclude a consensus made FIVE YEARS AGO that you were a part of is in fact a unilateral move without discussion is just unbelievable. And right after an edit war about this very issue? Ogress smash! 09:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I think we should go for RfC here. --Human3015 (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I went to ANI, myself. How do we go to RfC when the discussion hasn't even started? I have no idea what the issues are, why Blackknight12 moved the page. He hasn't said. We should start by seeing if he wants to move the page (likely) and then we move to discussions about why. Literally no discussion, no way to word the RfC without understanding what is even going on. Ogress smash! 10:00, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Ogress I don't know who you think I am, but I am not it. There was no malice nor anything shady in what I was trying to do. I was not involved in the above discussion or edit war about the Tamil script. Let me apologise to both of you for not seeing the above discussion as cited. User:Copperchloride and I have gotten into many disputed before hand and hence I now have no faith in his edits. They are highly slanted and POV, in my opinion and I will not stand for that. (and I am not saying I am always right) I am not the only one to have disputes with him on similar topics either. However I dont appreciate the personal attacks and accusations. Also I don't mean to be rude, but you should probably acquaint yourself with Sri Lankan history. As this falls under it and it is where I mainly edit within wikipedia. Having said that I am happy to follow protocol (as I normally do) in moving this article. I have made it clear what I want to do and this was not a stunt. I am starting to think you have something against me, but if you are happy to start fresh I am too. To be clear once more I will start a requested move and hopefully we can get this over with. Is that ok with you?--Blackknight12 (talk) 10:32, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Blackknight12 If you examine the next section, titled ELARA, you can see where I laid out my position in regards to the situation some time ago as well as suggestions for how to file your controversial move request to engage discussion. I felt quite strongly you were engaging in clear shenanigans, but as I note in Elara, I am willing to put that behind me under the assumption that you will act appropriately. Ogress smash! 10:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Malformed request. What is relevant per WP naming guidelines is not the ethnicity of the person, or which languages are or were official in the kingdom, but what is the COMMONNAME in English. That is clearly "Elara" from what I can see, even when restricting sources to this century. If any of you wish to challenge this, please address the relevant issue, which is which name the king goes by in reliable sources written in English. — kwami (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

Should the page be renamed or remain at this title? Wugapodes (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Ellalan (monarch) → Elara (monarch) – The article title in its present form (Ellalan) is incorrect. Elara is the most common name for this article, which the article has been known by for most of its existence. It is also very important to know that though a Tamil, Elara is mostly known through a Sinhalese context. ie. he was king in the Sinhalese monarchy in a Sinhalese kingdom and he is mostly known though Sinhalese sources. Furthermore it is by far the most common and relevant name, see comparision here. Google results also reflect this. "Elara 'King'" returns 244,000 hits, "Elara monarch" returns 49,400, 'Elara Sri Lanka" 39, 600, while "Ellalan" returns 84, 100, most of which do not even related to this article. A Google Books search also returns more for Elara with 64, 500 hits and only 1360 hits for Ellalan. It is pretty clear what the title should be.--Blackknight12 (talk) 07:48, 26 July 2015 (UTC) Blackknight12 (talk) 10:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Oppose until discussion: I am concerned about a number of things. If anyone could discuss some of these issues I'd appreciate it, as I know WP:COMMONNAME is a powerful argument. I am willing to change my argument, but I want to have this discussion before I make a support decision. My concerns are:
  1. that the page did have consensus as Ellalan since 2009 at least
  2. that the motivations of users who have been sock-puppet edit-warring this page (not you) are part of a larger issue of ethnic tension between Tamils and Sinhalese people in Sri Lanka as we've seen all over Wikipedia articles and a signal that we should examine the situation more closely
  3. that common usage is sometimes less relevant when it comes to historical figures, especially since he was, in fact, a Tamil with a Tamil name and is hardly a household name. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) reminds me that the current addendum (monarch) is awkward and that the format Ellalan Chola fits the Chola royal naming convention as with Vijayalaya Chola and Rajendra Chola III. Also, there is leeway in official names that are not the common name. He was a Tamil and a Chola; he had a Tamil name; he is mentioned not only in the Mahavamsa but also in the Tamil-language Silappatikaram and Periyan Puranam.
  4. NGRAMS show that Elara was very popular with the Orientalists before 1900 but the name usage declines sharply thereafter and while it remains in the lead, Ellalan has a modern surge with plenty of hits.
  5. Ellalan has also been an important ethnic hero to the Sri Lankan Tamils, including the Tamil Tigers, and choosing to name a Tamil hero king under a Sri Lankan name needs to be an actual decision, not just NGRAMS are good.
Basically, I think this is way more complicated than it looks and I'm not convinced that a move is correct. Ogress smash! 11:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Comments: I have numbered your comments so it is easier to reply to if you dont mind.
  • 1. Here is the history of the article name:
  • Ellalan: 8 March 2006‎ - 19 July 2006‎ - Clozapine (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (4,399 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Ellaalan to Elara (King): Ellaalan is not the common name.)
  • Elara: 19 July 2006‎ - 22 April 2008‎ GlassCobra (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (4,653 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Elara (King) to Elara (monarch): WP:MOS)
  • Ellalan: 27 October 2009 - 4 November 2009‎ Tamilstyle (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (6,701 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Elara (monarch) to Elalan (monarch): The right name)
  • Elara: 4 November 2009‎ - 5 April 2015 SpacemanSpiff (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (6,722 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Elalan (monarch) to Elara (monarch) over redirect: User has been moving pages without consensus) (undo | thank)
  • Ellalan: 5 April 2015‎ Copperchloride (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (14,265 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Copperchloride moved page Elara (monarch) to Ellalan (monarch) over redirect: Discussion pertaining to related section in talk page; Original name of the monarch) (undo | thank)
I dont believe the move made on 5 April 2015 is valid as there was no real discussion and the previous discussion ended in a no consensus, in favour of Elara.
  • 2. There are "extremists editors" from both sides and I deal with them all the time, I have seen many come and go but that shouldn't distort the facts.
  • 3. I don't think anyone is denying Elara/Ellalan is Tamil. However Elara was never a Chola king (in the sense he never ruled the Chola dynasty) but he was from the royal house of Chola. The wording of the article lead is misleading. He was King of the Anuradhapura Kingdom, a Sinhalese Kingdom, hence why he is known and most notable in a Sinhalese context. And therefore "official names" would apply here in favour of the move. The Chola dynasty article also states clearly "The Mahavamsa mentions that an ethnic Tamil adventurer, a Chola prince known as Elara, invaded the island[clarification needed] around 235 BCE.[12]"
  • 4. It is still nowhere near the useage of Elara.
  • 5 I am no expert on this, but I would say it is more the hero of the Tamil Tigers that Sri Lankan Tamils per se. However I am more interested in its historical and intellectual value than its propaganda value.--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Per Ogress, Ellalan was King of Chola dynasty which ruled south India, and language of Chola dynasty was Tamil, so his name should be in Tamil, not in Sinhalese. When mothertounge of Ellalan was Tamil then how we can write his name in Sinhalese? --Human3015 (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
As above, he was not, he was King of the Anuradhapura Kingdom, a Sinhalese Kingdom. No one is denying he was Tamil, the name Ellalan should be in that article too. My point is he is notable for becoming the King of Anuradhapura. If he was Tamil and Emperor of Japan, he would be known by his Japanese name, same with China and so on. The name Elara is more common historically and contemporarily.--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
@Blackknight12: You are misreading the facts. He was Tamil and he was not king of Japan but King of empire in Sri Lanka where Tamil is also one of language, specially in those era Tamil was also language, Sinhalese is not sole language of Sri Lanka. Are you claiming that in his kingdom only Ellalan was Tamil speaker and all of his subjects were Sinhlese?. Kings and Queens of British empire ruled India, so should we write their names in Hindi, Marathi, Urdu instead of English? At least Tamil-Sri Lanka-Ellalan are related things, its not thing like King of Japan and China.--Human3015 (talk) 14:09, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - close as malformed request the target is a dab page. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:27, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Woops, I missed that, have fixed it now.--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose no evidence given this is the primary topic of "Elara" -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Please see above--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see what you changed in the nomination now, you changed the nomination out from under us. [1] changed the request from "Elara" to "Elara (monarch)"; that kind of change should have a dramatic announcement at the bottom of all currently lodged comments. So you removed the primary topic issue and this is now solely about common name -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 06:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Per Human3015, no worry about search engine result, act as per local sense and do not "push" from your view. --AntanO 07:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
I am not pushing any view.--Blackknight12 (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Even if "Elara" is preferred over "Ellalan", it is still definitely not the primary topic and should hence be at "Elara (monarch)". --JorisvS (talk) 10:29, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Procedural note. At 06:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC), 67.70.32.190 changed the move target from the unqualified Elara (currently a disambiguation page) to Elara (monarch). —C.Fred (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
    • No, I did not change the target, the nominator already changed the target per this edit [2] -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 06:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Restored

There was no consensus for this move, so I've returned the page to the previous title until a consensus can be reached. Apologies for any confusion. Thanks, Nakon 14:01, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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