Talk:Eleanor de Braose

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November 2012[edit]

I have added web sources to the text. I have made some minor changes to the text when I do not think that the text is supported by those citations.

"Eleanor was born in about 1228" I have flagged as "citation needed" as neither of the two sources I checked give a DOB so it must have come from a third unreferenced source.
I have removed the the Latin quotes from Dugdal via Cawley, they are not needed. I have also removed the sentence "The document clearly shows that Eleanor was the youngest of the four girls" because it was not clear in the Cawley snippet "Isabella, Matildis, Eve et Alianore" -- which can be found in Dugdale inclusion of the Fundatorum Progenies manuscript see -. 134 second column paragraph one -- and the snippet from Fundatorum Progenies for the fourth daughter is not quoted by Cawley but is in paragraph 4 Elianora quarta filia fuit desponsata Hunfredo de Bohun quiuto ("Eleanor the fourth daughter married Humphrey de Bohun"). As the Fundatorum Progenies manuscript as transcribed by Dugdale records Eleanor's name both as Alianore and Elianora it is not clear and to translate it and quote it is close to OR, so I have removed the quotes and simply footnoted the facts. Which were already in the text.
I have removed "by whom he had a son, John de Bohun of Haresfield." as neither Lundy Joan de Quincy or Cawley mention him. Indeed Cawley quotes a primary source and says "records that she died "on Thursday the feast of St Katherine 12 Edw I" and that "Hawis her sister, late the wife of Baldwin Wake, is her next heir and of full age" which strongly implies that she did not have a son, or if she did he did not survive her. So another source is needed to support the fact she has a son.

-- PBS (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have move the following bullet point out of the article to here:

Alianore de Bohun (died 20 February 1314, buried Walden Abbey). She married Robert de Ferrers, 6th Earl of Derby on 26 June 1269 and they had two children.

The reason is that Lundy citing Cokayne does not include this daughter, and Cawley writes "The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified.",[1] so he is basing his inclusion of here on indirect primary sources and from the snippets he provides would not be acceptable facts as interpretations of primary sources if he were a Wikiepdia editor. I think that as he is not a professional historian, his speculations and synthesis of facts are too tenuous for Wikipedia to use from what is not considered to be a reliable source under the WP:V policy. -- PBS (talk) 12:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from the 2 children, all this is sourced from Complete Peerage IV p202 so I will reinstate, correct and source this. Doug (at Wiki) 17:06, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also found reference for their children now. Doug (at Wiki) 17:30, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Margery's birthdate of 1265 looked a bit incongruous with her mother's death dated 1251! Richardson in fact gives her first marriage at 1265 and the fact that she was still living in 1280.Doug (at Wiki) 18:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does Cokayne name her Alianore or Eleanor? -- PBS (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cokayne gives "Alianore" but Maddicott uses "Eleanor". It's a matter of style. The name only appears in Latin documents where she is "Alianora". That is Anglicised slightly by Cokayne but Maddicott follows the more modern trend to translate latinised names to their modern equivalent. It might be more consistent to call her the same as her mother because they actually both had the same name! What do you think? Richardson also uses "Eleanor". Doug (at Wiki) 10:18, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I've updated the whole paragraph because it's all in one source at Richardson. That removes the need for my introduction of Cokayne Vol IV and Maddicott into the references.Doug (at Wiki) 10:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was the harmonisation of style I was concerned about (although I think we should follow the usage in reliable sources), and I am pleased that you found a modern source which does harmonise them. -- PBS (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see any need for the ref no 5 (at present) citing unreliable Lundy since all the facts in the sentence are covered in ref no 6 Cawley. Shall we take it out?Doug (at Wiki) 13:53, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nine months later - I'll do it then! Doug (at Wiki) 15:31, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]